Joe Lieberman wants to bomb Iran

[palehorse]

doublepost.. doh!

 

[poohbear]

palehorse its not a very convincing or solid arguement to say that "some" muslims are taught it and "some" are'nt everytime a muslim corrects you. we really can't prove you wrong w/ that kind of position, and i think u need to acknowledge that. Nonetheless, im holding you to what you said earlier, that "the majority of muslims are taught 72 virgins await them", that is out and out BS. You quoted a hadith from someone who died in 892CE (and later someone in the 14th century??) who never lived in the time of Mohamad or his companions and therefore would never meet the criteria for an authentic hadith. You used this obscure hadith as a premise and made some ridiculous inductions from it, that the majority of muslims are taught it.

Since that is indeed BS, you at the very least presented a twisted image of islam by emphasizing the minority of muslims who believe it as the majority.

. I think you'll find that many Wahhabi clerics, even in the US, will reference this Hadith on occasion. Reach out and ask one of them.

ah thank you very much palehorse. wahabi muslims number maybe 16 million world wide. THIS is the minority of muslims that you are claiming as representative of the 1.5 billion muslims? This very same brand of islam that views other muslims as dissidents and apostates, you're using them as being representive of the worlds 1.5 billion muslims? that's quite deceptive on your part.

The majority of the ME and N Africa is sunni islam with none of the dubious and fundamantalist wahabi interpretations of the Quran. You referencing obscure sects within islam as representive of the worlds 1.5 billion muslims and referencing very nebulous hadiths that dont even meet the criteria for authentic hadiths just proves how absurd your position is.

You are'nt an authority on islam at all, I dont care how long you've lived in the ME. I live and work in Japan, speak their language, have a japanese fiancee, who is buddhist by the way (well actually she's atheist, but anyone who's been to japan knows what i mean but i would never claim to be an authority on the Japanese. That would be quite arragont and completely irrelevant on my part.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: azazyel

Originally posted by: palehorse74

I've studied Islam and the ME for years. I've also spent a good deal of time in the ME, Central Asia, and North Africa. I am currently finishing up another degree that focuses on terrorism studies, and I'm even in a language program learning Arabic. I've never spent more than a second at any of the ridiculous internet sites you listed, and I've certainly never drawn research data from any of them.

WTF? Where you getting your degree from?

I'm getting this particular degree entirely online at AMU. The following is the 300/400 core... as you can probably guess, none of my previous 300/400 creds transferred... DOH!

B.A. in Intelligence Studies
Core Requirements (21 semester hours)
IS389 - INT 311 - History of U.S. Intelligence
RQ300 - COL300 - Research, Analysis, and Writing
RQ307 - INT310 - Introduction to Intelligence
RQ310 - INT313 - Tactical Intelligence
RQ312 - INT312 - The U.S. Intelligence Community
RQ313 - INT315 - Foreign Intelligence Organizations
RQ350 - INT 314 - Contemporary Intelligence Issues

Major Courses (24 semester hours)
General Program Courses
IS303 - INT432 - Criminal Intelligence Analysis
IS304 - INT443 - Geographic Intelligence
IS305 - INT412 - Signals Intelligence and Security
IS307 - INT413 - Counterintelligence
IS308 - INT414 - Open Source Collection
IS309 - INT350 - Introduction to the War on Drugs
IS310 - INT433 - Threat Analysis
IS312 - INT461 - Terrorism and Counterterrorism
IS313 - INT441 - International Criminal Organizations
IS315 - INT415 - Human Intelligence
IS316 - INT416 - Espionage-Counterespionage
IS323 - NSS412 - Terrorism and U.S. National Security
IS325 - INT442 - Interrogation
IS332 - INT330 - China Country Analysis
IS346 - INT333 - Korea Country Analysis
IS348 - INT462 - Forecasting Terrorism
IS386 - INT423 - Cyber Warfare
IS390 - INT490 - Independent Study - Intelligence Studies
IS410 - INT431 - Introduction to Analysis
IS420 - INT463 - Intelligence and Assassination
IS430 - INT 434 - Spycraft

Concentration in Terrorism Studies
IS312 - INT461 - Terrorism and Counterterrorism
IS323 - NSS412 - Terrorism and U.S. National Security
IS348 - INT462 - Forecasting Terrorism
IS420 - INT 463 - Intelligence and Assassination

It's a pretty interesting program, and the professors are top-notch! They also gave me some decent credit for my previous training...
http://www.apus.edu/text/intelligence_studies_ba.htm

 

[poohbear]

Originally posted by: Aimster
my belief is that Islam is an Arab religion that has plagued my "country of identity" and destroyed it.

ROFL! aimster, if the ME was christian, i absolutely assure you Israel would not exist.

neways i gotsa get some sleep, its 3am here in tokyo.

 

[Lemon law]

The heck with 72 virgins---I will settle for getting 72 overly optimistic neocon nuts off the public payroll. And then replacing neocon nuts with rational people. Counting Libby, Rumsfeld, and getting Wolowitz off the world bank---still at least 69 to go.---lets see---who is still on the wish list---Cheney, GWB, Rice, Hardley, Feith, Gonzales are certainly in the top dirty dozen---and we might not even have to add Lieberman because he would find himself totally isolated. And best of all, I don't even have to die to get it---neocons come with a self destruct stinking thinking flop button. Listen to their ideas at your own peril.---and their next trick is to sell us all a war with Iran.---just say no to dumb ideas.

 

[poohbear]

Core Requirements (21 semester hours)
IS389 - INT 311 - History of U.S. Intelligence
RQ300 - COL300 - Research, Analysis, and Writing
RQ307 - INT310 - Introduction to Intelligence
RQ310 - INT313 - Tactical Intelligence
RQ312 - INT312 - The U.S. Intelligence Community
RQ313 - INT315 - Foreign Intelligence Organizations
RQ350 - INT 314 - Contemporary Intelligence Issues

Major Courses (24 semester hours)
General Program Courses
IS303 - INT432 - Criminal Intelligence Analysis
IS304 - INT443 - Geographic Intelligence
IS305 - INT412 - Signals Intelligence and Security
IS307 - INT413 - Counterintelligence
IS308 - INT414 - Open Source Collection
IS309 - INT350 - Introduction to the War on Drugs
IS310 - INT433 - Threat Analysis
IS312 - INT461 - Terrorism and Counterterrorism
IS313 - INT441 - International Criminal Organizations
IS315 - INT415 - Human Intelligence
IS316 - INT416 - Espionage-Counterespionage
IS323 - NSS412 - Terrorism and U.S. National Security
IS325 - INT442 - Interrogation
IS332 - INT330 - China Country Analysis
IS346 - INT333 - Korea Country Analysis
IS348 - INT462 - Forecasting Terrorism
IS386 - INT423 - Cyber Warfare
IS390 - INT490 - Independent Study - Intelligence Studies
IS410 - INT431 - Introduction to Analysis
IS420 - INT463 - Intelligence and Assassination
IS430 - INT 434 - Spycraft

Concentration in Terrorism Studies
IS312 - INT461 - Terrorism and Counterterrorism
IS323 - NSS412 - Terrorism and U.S. National Security
IS348 - INT462 - Forecasting Terrorism
IS420 - INT 463 - Intelligence and Assassination

It's a pretty interesting program, and the professors are top-notch! They also gave me some decent credit for my previous training...
http://www.apus.edu/text/intelligence_studies_ba.htm[/quote]

where are your courses on islam if you're claiming to be an expert? the last 2 years of this degree and not even one "intro to islam"? not one on islamic philosophy? not one one islamic history? heck not even one on ME history for that matter?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: poohbear
palehorse its not a very convincing or solid arguement to say that "some" muslims are taught it and "some" are'nt everytime a muslim corrects you. we really can't prove you wrong w/ that kind of position, and i think u need to acknowledge that. Nonetheless, im holding you to what you said earlier, that "the majority of muslims are taught 72 virgins await them", that is out and out BS. You quoted a hadith from someone who died in 892CE (and later someone in the 14th century??) who never lived in the time of Mohamad or his companions and therefore would never meet the criteria for an authentic hadith. You used this obscure hadith as a premise and made some ridiculous inductions from it, that the majority of muslims are taught it.

Since that is indeed BS, you at the very least presented a twisted image of islam by emphasizing the minority of muslims who believe it as the majority.

. I think you'll find that many Wahhabi clerics, even in the US, will reference this Hadith on occasion. Reach out and ask one of them.

ah thank you very much palehorse. wahabi muslims number maybe 16 million world wide. THIS is the minority of muslims that you are claiming as representative of the 1.5 billion muslims? This very same brand of islam that views other muslims as dissidents and apostates, you're using them as being representive of the worlds 1.5 billion muslims? that's quite deceptive on your part.

The majority of the ME and N Africa is sunni islam with none of the dubious and fundamantalist wahabi interpretations of the Quran. You referencing obscure sects within islam as representive of the worlds 1.5 billion muslims and referencing very nebulous hadiths that dont even meet the criteria for authentic hadiths just proves how absurd your position is.

You are'nt an authority on islam at all, I dont care how long you've lived in the ME. I live and work in Japan, speak their language, have a japanese fiancee, who is buddhist by the way (well actually she's atheist, but anyone who's been to japan knows what i mean but i would never claim to be an authority on the Japanese. That would be quite arragont and completely irrelevant on my part.

First, like I said before, I never claimed expertise.

Second, Salafist and Wahhabist Muslims are Sunnis; and their beliefs are very prevalent throughout the ME - from Riyadh to Libya. Their beliefs also influence many of the less fundamentalist Sunni sects spread throughout the region, and beyond - so finding other sects that also believe in the virgins is not difficult. I was merely pointing out one possible source that Aimster could go to for a more empirical look at the issue. Remember, his initial claim was that only a handful of Palestinians may believe in the virgins; and, I never once connected that belief with martyrdom or suicide murder.

and finally, regardless of your specific interpretation of the vocabulary, it's true that many Hadiths, and even the Quran itself, paint a pretty sensual picture of paradise. The Quran mentions "two wives," and some of the translations of several Hadiths mention "companions" or "virgins." There may not be a true majority of Muslims who can agree on what exactly awaits them, but most will agree that it involves women in some sensual capacity. Hence my claim that the majority of Muslims believe it.

I'm not sure that there is any empirical evidence to back this up, but it has certainly been true in my experience, with my contacts, and in my studies.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Conky said:

There is a lot of antisemitism in this thread.

Yeah, suuuure there is..

Time to call a spade a spade.

Many people are uncomfortable in drawing the link between the likes of Joe Lieberman, the pro-Israel Lobby and the neo-conservatives due to political correctness or out of fear of being called "anti-Semites" or "anti-Jewish".

While most American Jews are not supportive of war mongering, it is time, though, to realize that there is a small group of right-wing Zionists, supported by Evangelical fundamentalists, who have been working very hard to get the US to fight Israel's wars in the Middle East under the guise of the "war on terror".

Our foreign policy should be implemented for the U.S. not Israel. If Israel feels threatened by Iran or any other country in the Middle East let it spend it's young people and it's resources to do what it feels it must. What has been Israel's conribution to the Iraq war in troops and materials? What would it contribute if the U.S. attacked Iran?

Another problem is in referring to Joe Lieberman as a "centrist". One could argue Lieberman is not a centrist but an ideologue of the "right wing" variety. This is all within the context that the mythical spectrum of "left" to "right" actually exists in physical reality. It doesn't. There is no "left" or "right," except in the minds of the model's adherents. The "left" to "right" linear spectrum is a model of physical and intellectual reality, not reality itself.

This is not an idle exercise in semantics. By pre-authorizing placement along a metaphor, perception and analysis is skewed to fit within the figure of speech.

For Example:

Joe Lieberman, I don't see him as a "rightist," but as a corrupt and paranoid individual, obsessed with his identity as a "Jew." Again, the identity of "Jew" is a mere metaphor, a false identity imposed from within as well as from without.

The attempted identity is based loosely on various factions of a "religion," roughly common ancestry, and historical experience. Because of this false identity, the world is at risk for nuclear war.

What we really should be looking at are models of individual and group psychology, and how they fit the egomania and paranoia of politicians and mobs, and what we can do to detect and and treat these individuals before they become threats to life everywhere.

He represents the Israel Lobby which is fighting vigorously for more wars in the Middle East where American power can be used to destabilize Israel's enemies.

There is one minor detail: American soldiers have to do the fighting and dying!

Mr. Lieberman, How about serving the interests of the voters of Connecticut rather than a foreign country?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: poohbear
where are your courses on islam if you're claiming to be an expert? the last 2 years of this degree and not even one "intro to islam"? not one on islamic philosophy? not one one islamic history? heck not even one on ME history for that matter?

First, once again, I never claimed to be "an expert" on anything.

Second, many of the courses listed above contain literature addressing each of those subjects, and I've been studying Islam itself for many years outside of school - to include many regional studies done in/for the military. I also started a minor in Religious Studies many years ago during my first degree program that focused on "the big three." (I never finished that minor because CS took over my damn time!)

I also keep a copy of both the Quran and Bible on my desk, and an electronic copy of the Talmud and Torahs on my PC... if that says anything about me.

 

[poohbear]

I'm not sure that there is any empirical evidence to back this up, but it has certainly been true in my experience, with my contacts, and in my studies .

if there's no empirical evidence, are you just basing it on assumptions? looking at your transcript and your studies it doesnt seem that you're an authority to speak so broadly about the religion at all.

Here's a question: Based on your own beliefs, and those taught at your mosque(s), how do you envision paradise? Describe the place your Imam(s) have drawn for you...

I always thought heaven was just that, heaven. the details of which are irrelevant and completely subjective to what an individual deems as paradise, i never even thought of the details until this thread. I wouldnt want to go to heaven if all it had was "72 virgins" nor do i consider this the epitome of paradise, im pretty sure the majority of people would agree. and that's what WE are, PEOPLE. no different from christians or jews or buddhists in what we love & hate. your absurd emphasis on "virgins in heaven" portrays muslim beliefs as simplistic and immature. we're not college jocks dying to get laid at some heavenly frat house, regardless of how fixated you are on this one obscure & wholly nebulous point.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: poohbear

I'm not sure that there is any empirical evidence to back this up, but it has certainly been true in my experience, with my contacts, and in my studies .

if there's no empirical evidence, are you just basing it on assumptions? looking at your transcript and your studies it doesnt seem that you're an authority to speak so broadly about the religion at all.

I always thought heaven was just that, heaven. the details of which are irrelevant and completely subjective to what an individual deems as paradise, i never even thought of the details until this thread. I wouldnt want to go to heaven if all it had was "72 virgins" nor do i consider this the epitome of paradise, im pretty sure the majority of people would agree. and that's what WE are, PEOPLE. no different from christians or jews or buddhists in what we love & hate. your absurd emphasis on "virgins in heaven" portrays muslim beliefs as simplistic and immature. we're not college jocks dying to get laid at some heavenly frat house, regardless of how fixated you are on this one obscure & wholly nebulous point.

It was Aimster's initial assertion that nothing in Islam mentions the virgins. Once I proved that to be blatantly false, aimster went on to say that only a handful of Palestinians believe in the virgins awaiting them in paradise - and it is my contention that he is wrong, primarily based upon first-hand observation.

The entire point may be "obscure and nebulous," but it's the subject of our debate nonetheless.

I never passed judgment on the nature of the belief itself, as there are certainly more ridiculous beliefs out there...

 

[poohbear]

It was Aimster's initial assertion that nothing in Islam mentions the virgins. Once I proved that to be blatantly false, aimster went on to say that only a handful of Palestinians believe in the virgins awaiting them in paradise - and it is my contention that he is wrong, primarily based upon first-hand observation.

yes but please dont emphasize it to the point that you make it appear a basic tenent of the religion, because whether its even legitimate is a subject of contention. You didnt prove anything is blatantly false because you quoted a very obscure hadith that is NOT authentic. I, a muslim, say it doesnt exist and i've shown you why your quote is not reliable, but you, w/ your BA in intel, say it does.

imams hardly ever talked about heaven when i went to mosques, they preached about DOING things to be a good person instead of rambling about heaven & hell. Such theological and celestial discussions were never mentioned. ppl would probably fall asleep if they did. maybe in afghanistan where ppl are dirt poor and have nothing to live for this might be uplifting, but in a developed country there's no need for such talk. Which really brings up the question, does lack of economical stability and education really encourage this side of religion which is just idle daydreaming? a famous hadith by mohamad is: "prepare for heaven as if you were to die tomorrow, but prepare for this world as if you were to live forever". another states how one man asked mohamad if he should tie up his camel or trust in god and let him roam free, to which mohamad said: "first tie up your camel, and then trust in god." that hardly strikes me as emphasizing or encouraging people to sit back and day dream while neglecting their responsibilities in life. maybe because i live in this religion im more apt to remember such practical hadiths as forming the core tenets of my religion whereas for you its just some set of exotic beliefs from the ME wherein "72 virgins in paradise" is taught regularly.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: poohbear

It was Aimster's initial assertion that nothing in Islam mentions the virgins. Once I proved that to be blatantly false, aimster went on to say that only a handful of Palestinians believe in the virgins awaiting them in paradise - and it is my contention that he is wrong, primarily based upon first-hand observation.

yes but please dont emphasize it to the point that you make it appear a basic tenent of the religion, because whether its even legitimate is a subject of contention. You didnt prove anything is blatantly false because you quoted a very obscure hadith that is NOT authentic. I, a muslim, say it doesnt exist and i've shown you why your quote is not reliable, but you, w/ your BA in intel, say it does.

imams hardly ever talked about heaven when i went to mosques, they preached about DOING things to be a good person instead of rambling about heaven & hell. Such theological and celestial discussions were never mentioned. ppl would probably fall asleep if they did. maybe in afghanistan where ppl are dirt poor and have nothing to live for this might be uplifting, but in a developed country there's no need for such talk. Which really brings up the question, does lack of economical stability and education really encourage this side of religion which is just idle daydreaming? a famous hadith by the prophet is: "prepare for heaven as if you were to die tomorrow, but prepare for this world as if you were to live forever". another states how one man asked mohamad if he should tie up his camel or trust in god and let him roam free, to which mohamad said: "first tie up your camel, and then trust in god." that hardly strikes me as emphasizing or encouraging people to sit back and day dream while neglecting their responsibilities in life. maybe because i live in this religion im more apt to remember such practical hadiths as forming the core tenets of my religion whereas for you its just some set of exotic beliefs from the ME wherein "72 virgins in paradise" is taught regularly.

I think you touched on the core issue here: that is, the economic situation in the areas where the more mystical aspects of Islam are focused on by the Imams.

You are very correct in your statement that the Imams in the poorer regions recognize the need for their students to escape their every-day lives and fantasize about the afterlife. The decent Imams do so without encouraging a speedy trip to said afterlife; while the extremists are able to twist it just a little bit, therefore making it easier for them to encourage the violent beliefs and behavior everyone hears about...

It has always been my opinion that economics are the key to the entire GWOT. Improving the standard of living in the poorest areas of the ME, Africa, and Indonesia, will go a long way to solving the problem of fanaticism...

 

[poohbear]

It has always been my opinion that economics are the key to the entire GWOT. Improving the standard of living in the poorest areas of the ME, Africa, and Indonesia, will go a long way to solving the problem of fanaticism...

agreed. and going back to the topic of this thread, bombing Iran is hardly conducive to that end.

its now 4:30am in Tokyo, and i have work @ 9am. cheers & i think i'll stick to discussing hardware & overclocking @ anandtech.