John Ashcroft Explains The Difference Between Christianity and Islam To A Grateful Nation

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etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
"When you put social conservatives in charge, what do you expect? "

I don't know, what do you call this?

Court Blocks Stoning Execution of Woman

KHARTOUM (Reuters) - A Sudanese appeals court has overturned a sentence of death by stoning for a pregnant Christian woman accused of adultery, and has sent the case back to the lower court for fresh sentencing, court documents showed.

The appeals court in Sudan's southern Darfur state, bordering the Central African Republic, ruled late last month that the lower court should give the defendant a "rebuke" sentence, not capital punishment, the documents received by Reuters Sunday showed. A criminal court in Nyala, about 500 miles southwest of Khartoum, had sentenced Abuk al-Daw Akok on December 8 to death by stoning for adultery. Akok is a member of Sudan's Dinka tribe, the largest ethnic group in the south.

The ruling was made in line with Islamic Sharia law, even though Akok was Christian. She appealed on January 3, and remains in prison in Nyala.

Rights group Human Rights Watch, which said Akok was 18 years old when she was sentenced, had criticized the death sentence as barbaric.

Appeal papers showed a second defendant, a northern Sudanese man accused of adultery with Akok, had been acquitted by the lower court.

The defense lawyer said Akok, who is married to another man, was pregnant with her husband's child.

Akok's case is the first of its kind in Sudan. But many southern Sudanese, who are mostly Christian or animist, have been sentenced according to Sharia law, although few of these sentences have been carried out.

Sharia law includes sentences such as amputations for theft and execution for murder.

 

Netopia

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,793
4
81
Why is it that no one but Russ is really taking in what Classy said?

I know about the Christian side and what Ashcroft said was the truth. How about someone who is versed in Islam... are there passages in the Koran that talk about Holy Wars and dying for Islam? There are zero in God's covanent with mankind.... only God going to the cross as a man to die for us.

The point Ashcroft was making is that Islam makes you earn your way while in Christianity you live under a state of grace (not merit) and the good works one does are out of love and thankfulness and not to rack up points.



<< What did God tell him to do?

Um... yeah... Isaac... um... yeah...
>>



Good point you made there... God DID NOT let Abraham sacrifice his son, but provided the sacrife Himself.... just as he would with the Lamb of God. Shame you didn't read the whole story!

Joe
 

Rison

Senior member
May 11, 2001
568
0
0
This is a free country people, and he can say whatever he wants. WHile he is getting to know Islam like a lot of Americans because of September 11, the statements is kind of true if you believe the terrorists' version of Islam. Unfortunately, the moderates in Islam haven't come out to defend their religion that much so we don't know what it (islam) is really like.
 

lebe0024

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2000
1,101
0
76
Had he said:

"Islam is a faith in which God is honored by sending your son to die for him. Christianity is a faith in which God is honored by sending his son to die for you."

...I don't think you'd get much objection from the Islam scholarly community. I just had a public discussion with an Islam scholar at my University. He said that Muslims find it rediculous that God would ever sacrifice himself for humanity. He said that couldn't possibly be honoring to God.
 

safoo

Senior member
Sep 30, 2001
330
0
0
This is a free country people, and he can say whatever he wants. WHile he is getting to know Islam like a lot of Americans because of September 11, the statements is kind of true if you believe the terrorists' version of Islam. Unfortunately, the moderates in Islam haven't come out to defend their religion that much so we don't know what it (islam) is really like.

sure he can say whatever he wants, but he is a public official and he should represent all the people of the united states, even the muslims. so with a comment like this, it may be hard for a muslim to feel that he is fairly representing them if he has ill feeling towards them.

i agree with rison that americans are still learning about the religion....

also, to come out and defend islam in an online forum is really difficult. especially when you get people who bring out articles from all over the net. just remember everyone, none of the major religions in itself is bad, because all of us believe that they are divinely established systems of living. only when the people begin to add and subtract from the pure religion does corruption and wrong doing enter. it is the people who cause this not the religion in itself.also when politics comes into the religion by rulers and leaders then the view we see of the religion is just a facade and not a true representation of it....

i hope this doesnt turn into a debate about religion....there has been many of those threads.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
Isn't it great that the Christians have learned better since then and don't send out their young men with backpacks of semtex to blow up pizza parlors full of teenagers or fly airliners into buildings.

Yeah, but dare we look at what brought about the Christians "learning better"? Competition from alternative schools of philosophy, and of course, science. It wasn't that long ago that Christians were no less brutal in their intolerances.


The point Ashcroft was making is that Islam makes you earn your way while in Christianity you live under a state of grace (not merit) and the good works one does are out of love and thankfulness and not to rack up points.

Yeah well, that depends on how you look at it. We all want the good stuff. Some might say that Christians do a better job of self-deception than others. Salvation is "earned", not "given", right? To be given salvation, you must accept Christ. In review, to be "given" X, you must perform Y. Seems to me like words are being twisted here. Moreover, humans are not capable of altruism, that is a function of perfection, and we apparently gave that up way back when in the garden of Eden. So, how can we do things out of love and thankfulness?

That's not even to touch on how petty and superficial the whole notion of accepting Christ is. Goes back to organized religion being a club for people to feel special and secure. Gets me thinking again about the hypothetical Buddhist monk who lives a life free of indulgences, tends to his garden, spreads spiritual & philosophical insight to his people, basically being at peace with all of God's creations. I wonder what the justification behind him being "unsaved" would be? He doesn't accept Christ? Well, then this Christian God is a validation-seeking egomaniac, and can hardly represent what God is supposed to be (perfect). No, it makes more sense that the "accepting Christ" aspect was conceived by mortal men, who are, as always, overly exhuberant in trying to spread their way of thinking.

Stop bullying Islam just because you can.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
126
We could easily have our own version of the Taliban *if* many leaders in the US were permited to have their way.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
"Yeah, but dare we look at what brought about the Christians "learning better"? Competition from alternative schools of philosophy, and of course, science. "

How is it that Christianity has learned from "alternative schools of philosophy and science" and Islam has not?
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
Well, let me pull out my translation of the Koran and see what it says...

from Al-Anfal ("Spoils of War")


<< 8:65 O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

8:74 Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous.

8:75 And those who accept Faith subsequently, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith in your company,- they are of you. But kindred by blood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah. Verily Allah is well-acquainted with all things.
>>


from At-Tauba ("The Repentance"):


<< 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
>>


from Muhammed:


<< 47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
>>


Those sound like fighting words to me. If I tried teaching that sort of stuff at Sunday School, I'd probably be jailed for child endangerment.


And we wonder why young arab men who spend their lives studying this stuff tend to strap on plastic explosives and blow themselves up in crowded public places.

But don't mind me, I'm just another ignorant, bigoted, f**-nub like Mr. Ashcroft.
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
76
Agreed. I've heard it explained in a much better way - in Islam, the savior is named Mohammed. In Christianity, his name is Jesus.

La illaha illa Allah. The savior is not Mohammed, but he is the messenger. I am the Beloved and the Lover is my veil.

How is it that Christianity has learned from "alternative schools of philosophy and science" and Islam has not?

Well of course it has. Look at the history. Look at the Faylasufs. Look at the Sufi separation. Look at the whole Sunni/Shia thing. Look at the entire invention of al-jebra. Islam progressed science and thought greatly during the European period of darkness.

Cheers !
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
How is it that Christianity has learned from "alternative schools of philosophy and science" and Islam has not?

Lack of exposure . They have been over there stewing in their ideologies while the west has been gaining diversity rapidly. It's circumstance, it has nothing to do with a particular brand of religion. They live under largely theogical governments, most of the west has developed past that, but I will say again, it was not long ago that the same thing was mirrored even in here North America, with the Salem Witch trials. The dice have to fall onto the table one way or another...if they fall in your favor does that mean you're better?
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
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I don't bash christianity, or just about any religion like some people in the Hot Deals thread did, but I do bash Islam at every opportunity. This is a religion, that needs to be stamped out of existance.

It tolerates the oppression of women. It encourages the killing of non muslums, and while the rest of the world is advancing and moving into the future, Islam is responsible for keeping a large part of the world in the fricken dark ages. I mean, stoning people in the streets, men smashing their wives in the mouth with bricks and not even getting a slap on the wrist.

I hate Islam, it is a scourge on the planet earth. That being said, I'm sure there are many muslums who are good people.

I feel that many people believe what I do, they are just afraid to say is.

In Iran they chanted "Death to America, Death to America"

Me, I think I'm gonna get some T-shirts printed that say:

"Death to Islam" on them.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
100
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Such a statement is unworthy of the Attorney General of the United States of America.

It is given who the AG is. The real problem is that Ashcrap isn't worthy of being the AG.
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
4,359
0
0
Well, a pile of dog crap would be a better AG than Janet Reno.

Ya know, attorney general is supposed to be a tough SOB. I think Ashcroft, especially in the times we're living in now is a great AG, and outside of Pat Buchannon, I can't think of anyone I'd rather have in there.

Sure, ol Johnny can get a little religious at times, however, just because he's a public official, doesn't mean he can't have his own beliefs and say them. Being in office doesn't negate a person's first amendment rights.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,421
293
126


<< The attorney general of the United States said, "Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. Christianity is a faith in which God sends his son to die for you." >>

For some reason, I'm not at all offended by this. I know I should be, or at least I know people want me to be, but I'm not.

Apparently, the Islam that Ashcroft refers to is widely accepted in the Arab world...or they would stop teaching their children to strap bombs to themselves.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81


<< Apparently, the Islam that Ashcroft refers to is widely accepted in the Arab world...or they would stop teaching their children to strap bombs to themselves. >>




I'm sure that every single one of the hundreds of millions of muslim children would like nothing better than to strap a bomb, right?


Let's face it, both sides have idiots. What about the protestants in N. Ireland that threaten and throw stuff at little school girls trying to get to school?

The only reason you don't see christians strapping bombs is because they have no reason to, but you see some perverse stuff nevertheless (I remember someone posting about this ultra-religious family that beat their daughter to death..)
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,421
293
126


<< (I remember someone posting about this ultra-religious family that beat their daughter to death..) >>

But, not for religious reasons, or in the name of religion...thus the difference.

There will always be fewer suicide bombers than those who sympathize or empathize with them, probably on the level of 1:1000 or better.

And Christians have plenty of potential reasons to strap bombs to their children, just none that are valid or acceptable, no different than radical muslims. Timothy McVeigh had his reasons for blowing up the federal building, just not one that society is going to tolerate or accept.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81


<<

<< (I remember someone posting about this ultra-religious family that beat their daughter to death..) >>


But, not for religious reasons, or in the name of religion...thus the difference.

There will always be fewer suicide bombers than those who sympathize or empathize with them, probably on the level of 1:1000 or better.

And Christians have plenty of potential reasons to strap bombs to their children, just none that are valid or acceptable, no different than radical muslims. Timothy McVeigh had his reasons for blowing up the federal building, just not one that society is going to tolerate or accept.
>>



What reasons could christians have? Take some christian fundamentalists from the "bible belt" as an example. They have food, water, housing, a good job/living (if they so desired) and they are rich by the world's standards. Oh sure, they can whine all they want about abortions and such, but nothing threatens them, they are secure.

Take those people and put them under some situations and they'd be killing ppl too..
 
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