John Fruehe (JF-AMD) no longer with AMD

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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
It matters because not all computations can be easily parallelized. That 28% increase in integer performance that you keep quoting, it should have been at least 33%. Intel was taken to task for Pentium 4, and so should AMD for Bulldozer.

Well, i have explained above that i was talking about the same performance in the same application.


This is exactly where the fail comes in. When BD was introduced, the 8150 cost over $250. At the time I got my 1090T for $160. BD did not deliver $100 worth of performance over the 1090T. Now prices are more reasonable - $180 for 8150 on Amazon.

I will agree that for you it wasn't worth it to buy the FX8150 but the FX8120 would be faster than Phenom II if OCed and it was at a much lower price than FX8150.
 

Hypertag

Member
Oct 12, 2011
148
0
0
Ehm, IPC and performance is not the same. 8-core BD is faster than Phenom II X6, 6-core BD is faster than Phenom II X4 and 4-core BD is faster than Phenom II X2.

If you say so. Looks like a pretty clear 1100T win outside of Winrar.

 

Hypertag

Member
Oct 12, 2011
148
0
0
Of course, each design has its pros and cons and people should know in order to chose whats best for them. But we should not care how many cores the CPU has if you get the same performance in the same application from a CPU with 4 or 8 cores.



So if 10,000 ARM cores could transcode 1% faster than a core i3 2120, you would recommend it over a core i3 2120?
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
If you say so. Looks like a pretty clear 1100T win outside of Winrar.


You should check your eyes, Phenom II 1100T is faster only in Lame Front-end, it looses in all the other test.(obviously i dont count Super Pi and wPrime)
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
So if 10,000 ARM cores could transcode 1% faster than a core i3 2120, you would recommend it over a core i3 2120?

If transcoding was what you would mostly do with your CPU and the 10,000 ARM core CPU was cheaper than Core i3 then yes i would recommend it.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
6
0
But that doesn't make it a FAILed product. In that case, IvyBridge is also a FAILed product because it is not worth it to upgrade over a SandyBridge.

Ivy is a fail as far as the desktop is concerned, just like Bulldozer didn't provide anything over the Thuban. But unlike BD, Ivy is a laptop chip and it's a wonderful laptop chip at that. Bulldozer, otoh, is a server and desktop only part and it failed on both platforms -- desktop harder than server, but still a poor showing in both.
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
1
76
Ivy is a fail as far as the desktop is concerned, just like Bulldozer didn't provide anything over the Thuban. But unlike BD, Ivy is a laptop chip and it's a wonderful laptop chip at that. Bulldozer, otoh, is a server and desktop only part and it failed on both platforms -- desktop harder than server, but still a poor showing in both.

It's faster clock for clock than Sandy. People have just gotten spoiled because it gets hot when OCed through the room.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,108
136
It belongs to another thread. But what you ask for is actually the opposite than what you want. You will see (And maybe understand) soon when Intel starts to move 2 and 3 nodes ahead.

You can basicly pick between competition or lower optimized node types. But only one of the 2.

Since I didn't actually ask for anything, would you mind elaborating?
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,209
2,257
136
So let me get this straight,

You have a new product that is 28% faster than your last generation product but it is FAIL ???


9%: http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/prozessoren/2011/test-amd-bulldozer/14/
11%: http://ht4u.net/reviews/2011/amd_bulldozer_fx_prozessoren/index49.php

More or less the same in 1-6 core applications. The better multithread performance isn't a big achievement considering it has 8 integer cores and a overall bigger die size in a smaller manufacturing process.


Ivy is a fail as far as the desktop is concerned, just like Bulldozer didn't provide anything over the Thuban. But unlike BD, Ivy is a laptop chip and it's a wonderful laptop chip at that. Bulldozer, otoh, is a server and desktop only part and it failed on both platforms -- desktop harder than server, but still a poor showing in both.


Unlike Bulldozer Ivy wasn't a new arch, consumes less power than the predecessor, didn't lower the IPC and the die size scaled-down even with a much bigger iGPU build in. IVB was just a refresh of his excellent predecessor. Bulldozer is a completely different case: New arch, new manufacturing process, bigger die size, lowered IPC, higher load power consumption etc. compared to the old K10.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
Ivy is a fail as far as the desktop is concerned, just like Bulldozer didn't provide anything over the Thuban. But unlike BD, Ivy is a laptop chip and it's a wonderful laptop chip at that. Bulldozer, otoh, is a server and desktop only part and it failed on both platforms -- desktop harder than server, but still a poor showing in both.

I dont see Ivy as fail in desktop, i have purchased one(3770K). It is a nice upgrade from my Core i7 920 both in OC and power consumption.

Also, Trinity is a nice Laptop APU using Bulldozer architecture in the CPU. It seams that Bulldozer based CPU cores paired with iGPU is a very formidable combination that can compete well against Intels Ivy.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136

For the second or third time, the 28% performance was about Integer in SPECint-2006. I have never said it was an average for desktop.

More or less the same in 1-6 core applications. The better multithread performance isn't a big achievement considering it has 8 integer cores and a overall bigger die size in a smaller manufacturing process.

Again as a consumer you dont care if you have more performance with 8 instead of 6 cores, you only care about Performance/price and when Bulldozer was launched it had worst performance/price than Phenom II X6. IMO that was the fail and not the performance, today the situation is completely reversed, for $160 the FX8120 when OCed has one of the best performance/price ratios.

Technically speaking,
Bulldozer(315mm2) die is smaller than Phenom II X6(346mm2) having 16MB of L2/L3 cache vs 9MB.
Also technically speaking, 6 core Phenom has 6x 3 ALUs (18) when 8 core Bulldozer has 8x 2 ALUs (16). Having more performance (+28% Integer) with less ALUs is an accomplishment and i wouldn't call it fail.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
You were probably banned due to the fact that quite a few people, including you, seemed to be lashing out at AMD supporters.
No, the AMD fanboy mod demanded an uncritical attitude to AMD, no matter what the known facts were pointing to.

Lots of us wanted some competition in between CPU manufacturers again in their lifetime. There's no reason to shit on people who's hopes are that level.
One should be able to desire competition between CPU manufacturers, without telling crazy lies and other bizarre interpretations of reality, which is the AMD Fanboy stock in trade.

JF-AMD not being in the loop with AMD's internal rumors... I doubt it. The fact that they needed an advance front-man to promote the new "FX/Opteron"...
You can doubt all you want, but unless you don't believe your own lying eyes, after checking out slide 6 of this HOT CHIPS presentation that AMD gave in August 2010, you will know that once again, I am completely on the money.

http://www.hotchips.org/wp-content/...rchive22/HC22.24.720-Butler-AMD-Bulldozer.pdf

"Designed for knee-of-the-curve IPC features and low gates/clock"

http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/754#3

"Throughput advantages for multi-threaded workloads without
significant loss
on serial single-threaded workload components"

http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/754#6

Freuhe was either intentionally lying or such an amateurish clown, he is unfamiliar with his own company's marketing guff and technically illiterate to boot.

The ridiculous thing about the Bulldozer design is that AMD were already at a sizeable single threaded performance deficit to Intel, that any further loss there, was clearly a step in the wrong direction.
 
Reactions: Grazick

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
Technically speaking,
Bulldozer(315mm2) die is smaller than Phenom II X6(346mm2) having 16MB of L2/L3 cache vs 9MB.
If you are going to attempt to speak technically, you should note that Bulldozer was made on a 32nm process instead of Phenom II's 45nm process.

Taking that into account, one can easily see how bloated Bulldozer is.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
If you are going to attempt to speak technically, you should note that Bulldozer was made on a 32nm process instead of Phenom II's 45nm process.

Taking that into account, one can easily see how bloated Bulldozer is.

Having more Cache while being smaller than last gen, i dont see whats the problem with that to call it bloated ?? I believe you are negative biassed towards anything called bulldozer.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Since I didn't actually ask for anything, would you mind elaborating?

Its due to the volume needed for new factories with lower process nodes to generate profit and payback the factories and node research. The ROI simply requires higher volume. For example only 2 companies can do 14nm with profit most likely. And at 10nm and down. There is only Intel. Unless something like 5-10 years between node changes is what you want.

You can already see at TSMC that they are somewhat stuck at 28nm. If you want 20nm chips you almost have to pay 2x.

A 22nm factory costs 5-6billion$, a 14nm 10billion$ plus R&D on top. Intel uses around 2billion$ a year on that alone if I recall right. 1900 Ph.Ds just to develop a new node.

So there you have it, without increasing volume, no new process nodes. With competition you got lower volume while having to compete on higher node processes with poor performance as result. And as stated above, those independent foundries like TSMC/Glofo dont work to push the nodes without too high cost increase. Not to mention those foundries produce generic processnodes and cant optimize their production line for a certain individual design. For example Intels 22nm and Haswell is designed hand in hand for one another.



Volume also dictates how much money can be spend on the actual design. And with designs getting increasingly more complex, that also affects performance. We already see it with the designs now with Intel vs AMD. This is also why we dont have 20+ x86 competitors like in the beginning. Simply no room left for them due to ROI.
 
Last edited:

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,209
2,257
136
You can doubt all you want, but unless you don't believe your own lying eyes, after checking out slide 6 of this HOT CHIPS presentation that AMD gave in August 2010, you will know that once again, I am completely on the money.

http://www.hotchips.org/wp-content/...rchive22/HC22.24.720-Butler-AMD-Bulldozer.pdf

"Designed for knee-of-the-curve IPC features and low gates/clock"

http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/754#3

"Throughput advantages for multi-threaded workloads without
significant loss
on serial single-threaded workload components"

http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/754#6

Freuhe was either intentionally lying or such an amateurish clown, he is unfamiliar with his own company's marketing guff and technically illiterate to boot.

The ridiculous thing about the Bulldozer design is that AMD were already at a sizeable single threaded performance deficit to Intel, that any further loss there, was clearly a step in the wrong direction.


It reminds me what terrace215 said: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...-s-Bobcat-and-Bulldozer&p=4531936#post4531936


AMD fans laughed about it but in the end the IPC indeed decreased.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Yep,

Alot of people sold out all their own credibility to JFAMD. Some was bought off for simple marble with alittle promised future HW, others was simply dedicated enough to do it on their own.
 

grimpr

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2007
1,095
7
81
Having more Cache while being smaller than last gen, i dont see whats the problem with that to call it bloated ?? I believe you are negative biassed towards anything called AMD.

There, fixed it for you.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
I believe you are negative biassed towards anything called bulldozer.

You will find I lack enthusiasm for all dud products, with Bulldozer being the worst desktop New Generation CPU that I have ever seen.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
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I also got banned for a few weeks at a time for daring to say that on the balance of probabilities, Bulldozer was going to be a dud and that IPC would be lower than Thuban.

However I think the appalling moderator in that case, may have actually been in love with JF-AMD.


His conduct was the worse I have ever seen on mainstream forums, by a company representative.

And most ludicrous of all, is how much information his supporters must be blissfully ignorant of, to not see his despicable behaviour.

AMD's engineers at a Hot Chips convention stated that one of their primary goals they were working on with Bulldozer was to minimise IPC loss, with the clear inference being that there was going to be some IPC loss.

This was publicly stated months before Bulldozer was released, yet JF-AMD kept insisting that IPC would be better than Thuban's.

While there is no excuse for personal attacks, I must also admit that at the time of Bulldozer launch especially, and even continuing now, I am amazed at the biased technical comments made by a few die hard AMD supporters that are allowed to be posted, while those who refute them have to be very careful in how they do it in order to avoid censure.
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
He lied about BD IPC and lost all credibility for that. Whoops, is that a personal attack? Did somebody got offended?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Its due to the volume needed for new factories with lower process nodes to generate profit and payback the factories and node research. The ROI simply requires higher volume. For example only 2 companies can do 14nm with profit most likely. And at 10nm and down. There is only Intel. Unless something like 5-10 years between node changes is what you want.

You can already see at TSMC that they are somewhat stuck at 28nm. If you want 20nm chips you almost have to pay 2x.

A 22nm factory costs 5-6billion$, a 14nm 10billion$ plus R&D on top. Intel uses around 2billion$ a year on that alone if I recall right. 1900 Ph.Ds just to develop a new node.

So there you have it, without increasing volume, no new process nodes. With competition you got lower volume while having to compete on higher node processes with poor performance as result. And as stated above, those independent foundries like TSMC/Glofo dont work to push the nodes without too high cost increase. Not to mention those foundries produce generic processnodes and cant optimize their production line for a certain individual design. For example Intels 22nm and Haswell is designed hand in hand for one another.



Volume also dictates how much money can be spend on the actual design. And with designs getting increasingly more complex, that also affects performance. We already see it with the designs now with Intel vs AMD. This is also why we dont have 20+ x86 competitors like in the beginning. Simply no room left for them due to ROI.

While I have no doubt that Nvidia has unquestionable access to pricing info on past nodes as well as price negotiations underway on nodes under development to form the basis of their graph above - I would point out that if we are to believe the data presented in this graph then we are to believe that 40nm never brought any cost savings over 55nm in its entire history of production and that is without question not true.

The data containing such an obvious error makes me question the assumption then that 20nm will not be lower in cost than 28nm.

However, there is one way that I can rationalize the data in the graph, and that involves this graph not representing cost/transistor but instead representing TSMC's willingness to attempt to balance supply with demand while maximizing their own gross margins.

In other words the graph shows Nvidia's purchasing expenses, not TSMC's production costs, and if that is the case then any arguments to be made using this graph to support the position that the new nodes themselves are not providing cost-benefits is flawed.

In the absence of competition, TSMC will naturally gravitate to a wafer pricing model which ends up being cost-normalized at the per-transistor level while maintaining gross margins by virtue of providing benefits in the form of lower-power and higher-clocks to the customers who are seeking to make profits themselves off of the newer nodes.

Customers looking to buy 20nm wafers versus 28nm wafers are going to be looking to buy those 20nm wafers because the resultant parametric properties of the chips themselves can command a higher resell price in the market - better power consumption, better clockspeeds. And TSMC knows this, so they would be the fools to not price accordingly.

And so why would TSMC not price accordingly to what the market will bear? Note we are no longer talking about the cost to develop and produce nodes, which is what you were using the Nvidia graph to support, but rather we are now talking about TSMC's ability to set wafer pricing as they see fit for the sake of maximizing their own margins in the absence of competition from the other foundries.

TSMC gets to tell Nvidia that Nvidia won't see a cost reduction per xtor for 20nm not because there is no cost reduction to be had, but because TSMC knows that Nvidia has no other choice but to buy TSMC's 20nm wafers if Nvidia wishes to compete with AMD when AMD releases their 20nm GPU's and with Qualcomm when Qualcomm releases their 20nm ARM chips.

Nvidia's problem isn't TSMC and it isn't that new nodes are not providing cost savings benefits, it is that UMC and GloFo aren't keeping pace with TSMC in their node release schedule which leaves TSMC the option of raising wafer prices as they see fit.

And that makes the story behind the graph a very different one indeed, it has nothing to do with new node production costs at TSMC and everything to do with gross margins at TSMC.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,108
136
Thanks ShintaiDK. I had also bought into NVs claims and believed that the cost of new process nodes would become a financial brick wall for lower volume customers. But, the optimism of foundries visa vi new smaller nodes seemed contradictory to that thesis (i.e. the Gloflo & ARM announcement regarding 20 & 14nm nodes).

Fortunately, we have IDK here on the AT Fori. His explanation resolves the contradiction and lays out, what to me at least, seems like a more plausible working theory.

Thank-you both for your contributions.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Fortunately, we have IDK here on the AT Fori. His explanation resolves the contradiction and lays out, what to me at least, seems like a more plausible working theory.

I have the unfair advantage of having worked (1) as a process node development engineer, (2) at a foundry (Texas Instruments, foundry to Cyrix and SUN), and (3) while operating in the capacity of a customer of TSMC, UMC, and Chartered.

You can't walk in those shoes without coming to learn a thing or two when it comes to reality versus marketing And Nvidia is very good at marketing TSMC's industry-wide generic issues as being Nvidia's Achilles heel.
 
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