John Kerry's Plan: Unveiled!

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: Corn
[Acutally you did: "- I credit a Republican Congress and a Democratic President with reigning in spending in the late '90s. It worked well then and I see no reason why it couldn't work now. "

Any thought that simply having an opposition President in power will automatically curtail spending is folly at best and has no recent historical basis in fact. A significant portion of our deficit issues are rooted in Iraq and Afganistan. No matter who becomes President, it is unlikely the military budget will be significantly reduced within the next Presidential term. Do you believe congress will rescind the pork promised to their constituency and special interests? Hah hah, that's a laugh. Not gonna happen. Do you believe a Republican congress will pass a major tax increase to cover the budget? Also unlikely.

You believe what you wish, Vic, as will I. Make no mistake, Bush didn't veto because it was politically expedient. If re-elected, he no longer is bound by that crutch. While congress won't give Kerry his socialized healthcare plan, don't think that Kerry is gonna whip out that veto pen for any of their pork loaded budgets during his term. As if.
Spending was "reigned in" during the Clinton Admin. The "only" 30% increase in spending during Clinton's 8 years was the lowest increase since Nixon IIRC. Contrast with GW's 40+% increase in only 4 years.

And you make it sound like every 1st-termer President never broke out the veto pen. That's ridiculous. Many have, and gotten re-elected too. Maybe we should elect a President with a little more political backbone, eh?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
First, SS is bankrupt because the Bush Admin has raided it for general funding. They're raiding the government employees pension right now.

SS is bankrupt because it is a bad system all together. Clinton raided it for general fund also. But that isnt the root of the problem. Raiding it only shortens the timespan before it tanks. Eventually it has to be changed unless we want to be paying 70% of our income in taxes just to fund it.

In 4 years, Bush has not made one attempt to get Congress to curtail spending. He has not vetoed one single bill that has gone across his desk. Quite the opposite, he has gone to Congress on multiple occasions to get his spending bills passed.

It is tough to say whether or not those bills would have been needed if 9-11 would not have passed. Most of his spending bills were aimed at the defense of the nation. Would you have complained when FDR took military spending through the roof in the early 1940s also?

While I can agree his tax cuts were not a wise fiscal move. The spending on the military was needed to fight a war. His tax cuts were aimed at getting the economy out of a recession. It worked but it cost the national debt dearly. Either way the congress could have also curtailed their spending bills to cut down on the

I did not blame military spending specifically. However, you are foolish (or revisionist?) to blame only the Clinton Admin for our current crisis. In addition to benefitting from a healthy economy, he actually did cut some government spending. For example, spending under Bush has increased from Clinton's 1.7 trillion in 2000 to 2.4 trillion under Bush this year. An increase of 41% in only 4 years! In contrast, spending only increased 30% during 8 years of Clinton. At least Clinton had the excuse of increased revenues.

I didnt once blame the Clinton administration for what the congress did. Although I suppose he does share some of the blame.

Actually the numbers appear to be closer to 22% increase for Clinton 1.57trillion-->1.995 trillion in 8 years and Bush is looking at a 9% increase in 4 years 2.085-->2.272 trillion. If Bush stays on track he will have increased the budget less than Clinton did.

Now the difference is in the revenues. They have dropped through the floor and thus have hurt the bottom line.

Military spending (not counting Iraq) was $450 billion this year. Roughly 100% of the this year's deficit.

The deficit is nearly 600 billion. So not quite and the increase in total military expenditures has gone up about 250 billion. If the Military expenditures were in fact 0 last year and 450 billion this year your theory would hold up. So we have a 350 billion dollar domestic deficit to worry about.

On the largest spending bill of the Bush Admin, the Prescription Drug and Medicare Improvement Act of 2003, strongly supported by GW, Kerry abstained from voting while Edwards voted No.

And yet they are for the aging Americans right? ok

You were saying?...

I would suggest first getting the numbers correct and then realizing the spending done under the Clinton era was relying on unrealistic tax revenues to last basically ever. If they were smart and held spending increases at 15% over 8 years that would have put the base at 1.8 trillion and tack on another 8% for Bush.
That puts us right at 1.95 trillion. That is ~ 300 billion from where we are today. That means without a war we are still able to run a surplus. With a war we have half of the deficit we have today.

Ask John we they didnt have enough foresight and economic wisdom to know the unrealistic fortunes of the 1990s would not last forever? They should have planned ahead!

Edited: Trillion instead of Billion
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Damnit, I can't google for hours here at work to get the exact numbers.

Well, nobody ever said I was a big fan of Clinton either. Better than Bush though IMO, as I always admired Clinton's salesmanship (the President ought to be a mover and shaker IMO). I still think Reagan was the best President of my lifetime though, even with his flaws. Not one of them ever read the Constitution though.

I think the key issue here is that, war or not, a $600 billion deficit is just too much. Way too much. We can't defend our nation by bankrupting it. If we can't count on a Republican President and Congress to be fiscally conservative, then who the hell can we count on?

Meh. Just like back in 2000, I wish we had better choices. Regardless, I see a vote for the incumbent as an endorsement, and I cannot endorse GW Bush. IMO we certainly can't afford to stay this course! Whether you like it or not, tax increases are coming regardless of who gets elected. Now, when that happens, who do you want to be in office to take the blame? Because IMO, things are looking about rosy enough that whichever party wins this year has absolutely no hope in 2008 short of a miracle or a revolution. That is, if GW doesn't set up his Nehemiah Scudder-like religious dictatorship before then...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Damnit, I can't google for hours here at work to get the exact numbers.

Heh it didnt really take me terribly long to find them Maybe 10 mins tops.


I think the key issue here is that, war or not, a $600 billion deficit is just too much. Way too much. We can't defend our nation by bankrupting it. If we can't count on a Republican President and Congress to be fiscally conservative, then who the hell can we count on?

I agree but the issue is how did it become 600 billion and where do we go from here? Bush has admitted there is a problem and wants to work with congress to reduce the spending or at least stop the increases so tax revenues can increase and catch up.

Kerry however wants to erect a healthcare system and keep SS the way it is.

The healthcare is the more immediate issue. This plan will cost hundreds of billions and I have heard it could reach the 1 trillion mark by itself. Doubling the deficit is not a very smart fiscal move. And at the same time enlarging our budget by nearly a third.

Bush could have saved himself some grief by not enacting the tax cuts true. However we dont know how the economy would look today for the amount of tax revenue generated by the tax cuts.



Meh. Just like back in 2000, I wish we had better choices. Regardless, I see a vote for the incumbent as anendorsement, and I cannot endorse GW Bush. IMO we certainly can't afford to stay this course! Whether you like it or not, tax increases are coming regardless of who gets elected. Now, when that happens, who do you want to be in office to take the blame? Because IMO, things are looking about rosy enough that whichever party wins this year has absolutely no hope in 2008 short of a miracle or a revolution. That is, if GW doesn't set up his Nehemiah Scudder-like religious dictatorship before then...

Well I have a feeling with Bush there wont be a tax increase But they will have to curtail spending and allow the economy to catchup. With Kerry there will have to be tax increases across the board if we even wants to dream of paying for his expansions.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
I agree but the issue is how did it become 600 billion and where do we go from here? Bush has admitted there is a problem and wants to work with congress to reduce the spending or at least stop the increases so tax revenues can increase and catch up.

Kerry however wants to erect a healthcare system and keep SS the way it is.

The healthcare is the more immediate issue. This plan will cost hundreds of billions and I have heard it could reach the 1 trillion mark by itself. Doubling the deficit is not a very smart fiscal move. And at the same time enlarging our budget by nearly a third.

Bush could have saved himself some grief by not enacting the tax cuts true. However we dont know how the economy would look today for the amount of tax revenue generated by the tax cuts.

Well I have a feeling with Bush there wont be a tax increase But they will have to curtail spending and allow the economy to catchup. With Kerry there will have to be tax increases across the board if we even wants to dream of paying for his expansions.
SS should be scrapped, not changed. Any citizen who wants to live off public assistance should be forced to take the pauper's oath. Corporate welfare and unfair advantage (read "tax breaks") should be eliminated.

I don't believe that Kerry will have a snowball's chance in hell in selling his health care agenda to a Republican Congress. Or even a Democratic one. Bill couldn't pull it off to a Democratic Congress, and he was born 10 times the salesman that Kerry could ever hope of being.

Mark my words, there will be tax increases across the board regardless of who is elected. The deficit has grown too large. Congress is just waiting until after the elections.
Originally posted by: Genx87
It will be hilariously funny watching my paycheck go into the vacuum.
Your paycheck will go into a vacuum in one of 2 ways. Either through tax increases... or through deficit-induced inflation. Or both. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
 
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