Jordan Neely killed on the subway by marine veteran. Hero or killer?

[MrSquished]

The fact the right wing is celebrating this murderer, should be just another sign to those who are still on the fence, that the right wing are well into mid-stage Nazism if not progressed a little further than that.

I don't care if an army of 5 million moon beams gave them fucking ecstasy and try talking to them for a month about the hate inside themselves.

99.5% would keep being horrible shitty people.

 

[pauldun170]

Well sort of - the entirety of my 'direct information' was that I ran into him once or twice and he was loud and annoying. I would say that I never perceived him as a threat though.

I also think I preferred running into him than having a Jesus ranter on the train or...worst of all...Mariachis.

Feel like we should create Subway rider playing cards.
Stench napper.
Fake "raising money for my school" kids.
The "We're going to do do stupid dance moves to obnoxiously loud music" crew
"Uncomfortable German family with young children sitting directly across from "N-Word in every other sentence" folks.

 

[pauldun170]

Going to re-write thread title to more accurately reflect news event
Unemployed Bartender/ College Drop out kills man on Subway.

 

[fskimospy]

Feel like we should create Subway rider playing cards.
Stench napper.
Fake "raising money for my school" kids.
The "We're going to do do stupid dance moves to obnoxiously loud music" crew
"Uncomfortable German family with young children sitting directly across from "N-Word in every other sentence" folks.

Speaking of strangling people there was a couple year period where it was Showtime on every fucking train. The first few times it was cool. By time 300…

I still hate mariachis more though. Maybe because they also torment you in San Diego so these guys have been annoying me for my entire adult life.

 

[pauldun170]

Speaking of strangling people there was a couple year period where it was Showtime on every fucking train. The first few times it was cool. By time 300…

I still hate mariachis more though. Maybe because they also torment you in San Diego so these guys have been annoying me for my entire adult life.

I remember while riding the subway and that first time I tapped the left ear bud and heard that sweet sweet "ANC...ON"

 

[Pens1566]

I had definitely run into Neely in the past, as has my wife. He was annoying but whatever.

As someone who rides the subway nearly every day I never really have any problems with it. I think this is partly because I'm a man so I don't get the pervs and partly that my daily commute is mostly through affluent parts of Brooklyn these days but even in the past when it wasn't things were fine. I saw a purse snatching once.

I feel like people who don't live here think the subway is like in The Warriors or something.

And I'm betting that he is not unique in terms of persons you're likely to encounter on the subway in NYC. Especially based on the response of other passengers (and your personal thoughts) that didn't feel the need to physically get involved.

So anything less than a conviction here would essentially be open season on public executions for similar situations in the future.

 

[fskimospy]

And I'm betting that he is not unique in terms of persons you're likely to encounter on the subway in NYC. Especially based on the response of other passengers (and your personal thoughts) that didn't feel the need to physically get involved.

So anything less than a conviction here would essentially be open season on public executions for similar situations in the future.

Unfortunately he is not unique, haha. Yes though, at least in my experience there was zero reason to get into a physical confrontation with him.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I'll just assume that when you are talking about PTSD you are talking about Neely's

Jordan Neely struggled with not being able to help his mother before her murder, attorney says

Donte Mills, an attorney for Neely's family, said Neely “had demons” as a result of his mother’s murder, and his family was trying to get him help.

www.nbcnews.com

How did you get that connection when you where talking about Penny's previous employment? You know, the Marine that killed Neely? Why the fuck would I be talking about Neely when that isn't who you where talking about? Are you trying to troll and manipulate, specially when it appears Neely wasn't physically aggressive with anyone, all he did was use aggressive words, and it was Penny who was the physical aggressive one that resulted in death?

The only relevance Neely's PTSD would have, is to why he talked to himself, heard voices, and used aggressive words.. But that doesn't equal a reason for Penny to kill him.

 

[woolfe9998]

Nobody involved believes Daniel Penny intended to murder anyone.

Except perhaps you. Perhaps read the full op before posting spin.


Daniel Penny tried to control the situation. Marines are not trained to control situations. They receive an entirely different type of training. The outcome is sad, but lets not ignore what the dead man said:

"big life sentence"
"it doesn’t even matter if I died"

To a reasonable person, that sounds like the prelude to an act of mass violence. Mass shooting. Etc. They happen every day in this country. Daniel Penny is in a NY subway car, most people are not going to flee effectively. Daniel Penny is likely one of those unable to flee effectively. With the information presented to him, the least bad choice is to engage and neutralize the threat to everyone on the subway car, as he was trained.

I am no legal expert, but based off of that, I question if their is a jury of New York subway riders that are going to be found that are going to convict Daniel Penny of anything.

I agree those statements imply a threat of violence. But are slightly ambiguous. I assume there will be testimony from others. In any event, that is the key fact here, if the defendant and others present had a reasonable fear of violence from the victim. If the answer to that is yes, I doubt a jury will second guess the manner and duration of the restraint.

 

[fskimospy]

I agree those statements imply a threat of violence. But are slightly ambiguous. I assume there will be testimony from others. In any event, that is the key fact here, if the defendant and others present had a reasonable fear of violence from the victim. If the answer to that is yes, I doubt a jury will second guess that manner and duration of the restraint.

While what you're saying makes sense the logic from Leeea is pretty bleak. Because mass shootings are so common now people can justifiably feel afraid of someone pulling out a gun and killing everyone, even though people shouting shit like that on the subway is not particularly uncommon.

 

[Leeea]

While what you're saying makes sense the logic from Leeea is pretty bleak.

Ban all firearms.

Lets just take the whole every situation instantly escalates to life and death and de-escalate that a bit.

 

[aigomorla]

Ban all firearms.

Lets just take the whole every situation instantly escalates to life and death and de-escalate that a bit.

TAG them and toss them to a deserted island, where several 100 years later they find there own country which living standards become better then ours... oh wait... that was the concept of Australia.

(sarcasm)

 

[Sunburn74]

15 mins is long time to choke a guy, particularly an unconscious guy. Once he's no longer a threat, it'd very hard for me to look past the additional measures that ultimately killed the guy.

 

[gothuevos]

Nobody involved believes Daniel Penny intended to murder anyone.

Except perhaps you. Perhaps read the full op before posting spin.


Daniel Penny tried to control the situation. Marines are not trained to control situations. They receive an entirely different type of training. The outcome is sad, but lets not ignore what the dead man said:

"big life sentence"
"it doesn’t even matter if I died"

To a reasonable person, that sounds like the prelude to an act of mass violence. Mass shooting. Etc. They happen every day in this country. Daniel Penny is in a NY subway car, most people are not going to flee effectively. Daniel Penny is likely one of those unable to flee effectively. With the information presented to him, the least bad choice is to engage and neutralize the threat to everyone on the subway car, as he was trained.

I am no legal expert, but based off of that, I question if their is a jury of New York subway riders that are going to be found that are going to convict Daniel Penny of anything.

15 minute chokehold tho?

 

[Artorias]

15 mins is long time to choke a guy, particularly an unconscious guy. Once he's no longer a threat, it'd very hard for me to look past the additional measures that ultimately killed the guy.

Having skimmed the story this sounds like a George Floyd situation.

The person doing the choking had the intention to cause harm, you know what your doing when you are 15 minutes into asphyxiating another human being.

 

[dainthomas]

15 mins is long time to choke a guy, particularly an unconscious guy. Once he's no longer a threat, it'd very hard for me to look past the additional measures that ultimately killed the guy.

Yeah, look what happened to Chauvin. He was within his rights to restrain George Floyd, but went way overboard and is now in big boy prison. This guy has a way higher chance of being convicted than a police officer.

 

[pauldun170]

How did you get that connection when you where talking about Penny's previous employment? You know, the Marine that killed Neely? Why the fuck would I be talking about Neely when that isn't who you where talking about? Are you trying to troll and manipulate, specially when it appears Neely wasn't physically aggressive with anyone, all he did was use aggressive words, and it was Penny who was the physical aggressive one that resulted in death?

The only relevance Neely's PTSD would have, is to why he talked to himself, heard voices, and used aggressive words.. But that doesn't equal a reason for Penny to kill him.

The killers prior employment is irrelevant. He maintained a chokehold for 15 minutes and killed someone.
You brought up PTSD.
You appeared to make an assumption that PTSD might be relevant
The only person reported to have suffered traumatic events and described in reports as suffering PTSD is Neely which is the article I linked.

I don't troll.
I spit facts

Also...I'm not sure we are in disagreement in anything. Just might be sloppy phrasing day

 

[Pens1566]

The killers prior employment is irrelevant. He maintained a chokehold for 15 minutes and killed someone.
You brought up PTSD.
You appeared to make an assumption that PTSD might be relevant
The only person reported to have suffered traumatic events and described in reports as suffering PTSD is Neely which is the article I linked.

I don't troll.
I spit facts

Also...I'm not sure we are in disagreement in anything. Just might be sloppy phrasing day

I disagree with the bolded. It should be used as damaging to the defendant. Marines are trained in hand to hand combat, and that choke holds can be deadly.

 

[WelshBloke]

The killers prior employment is irrelevant.

So much this! PTSD might come into when sentencing comes up but it doesn't change if someone was unlawfully killed.

 

[HomerJS]

I want to use the advice from one of our most esteemed posters @FelixDeCat who wants people to follow Christian values.

Page 10 - WTF! - Texas bill would mandate Christianity in public schools.

Page 10 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

We have seen many times Republicans pervert definitions of words or phrases to promote their evil agenda. Example: redefining woke, redefining patriot, etc.

Now Republicans and the right wing media are labeling Daniel Penny a Good Samaritan. The phrase as almost everyone understands it comes from a parable in the Bible. Luke 10:25-37. Read the parable and then I have a question...

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Question, are Republicans and Daniel Penny following the lesson of the Good Samaritan? Are Republicans attempting to pervert the definition of Good Samaritan?

IMO - right wingers are promoting a dangerous cauldron of white vigilantism. That's why Daniel Penny, Daniel Perry, Kyle Rittenhouse, Derrick Chauvin are labeled Good Samaritans/heroes. These are all people who felt justified to kill a person of color or someone associated with people of color.

 

[eelw]

It’s true, we will do usually jump the gun and form an opinion on the initial facts. Attorney for Penny being interviewed by Anderson, when one sees the full video, you’ll see he acted appropriately. Well he is getting paid to defend his client. I really don’t see how a longer video of said client continuing choking Neely will help exonerate him. Well have to wait and see

 

[NWRMidnight]

The killers prior employment is irrelevant. He maintained a chokehold for 15 minutes and killed someone.
You brought up PTSD.
You appeared to make an assumption that PTSD might be relevant
The only person reported to have suffered traumatic events and described in reports as suffering PTSD is Neely which is the article I linked.

I don't troll.
I spit facts

Also...I'm not sure we are in disagreement in anything. Just might be sloppy phrasing day

The Killer's prior employment which is the Military, is more than relevant. You obviously don't get the connection between being a Marine (his past employment) and the possibility of having PTSD from his time serving. Have you ever served? Have you ever been in combat? Again, why would I be talking about Neely when that is not who you where talking about? If you are so about facts, maybe you should learn a little bit about PTSD and our military soldiers. That way, you don't assume I am talking about someone else. You will also learn how PTSD can impact the outcome of the trial if he does have PTSD. (see my next post)

 

[NWRMidnight]

So much this! PTSD might come into when sentencing comes up but it doesn't change if someone was unlawfully killed

Guess again:

Courts have often recognized testimony about PTSD as scientifically reliable. In addition, PTSD has been recognized by appellate courts in U.S. jurisdictions as a valid basis for insanity, unconsciousness, and self-defense.

PTSD as a criminal defense: a review of case law - PubMed

Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) has been offered as a basis for criminal defenses, including insanity, unconsciousness, self-defense, diminished capacity, and sentencing mitigation. Examination of case law (e.g., appellate decisions) involving PTSD reveals that when offered as a criminal...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If he has PTSD, even though he killed Neely, it can be a basis to claim of self-defense as his deadly response could be tied to PTSD. So yes, his past employment, being his military service, is very relevant.

People really need to learn about PTSD and our military personal, as well as how it can effect how they respond to situations.

 

[woolfe9998]

While what you're saying makes sense the logic from Leeea is pretty bleak. Because mass shootings are so common now people can justifiably feel afraid of someone pulling out a gun and killing everyone, even though people shouting shit like that on the subway is not particularly uncommon.

Which is why I suggested we need to hear from more than one witness. I imagine New Yorkers who take the subway are pretty attuned to whether someone's strange behavior is a threat or not. If a bunch of them get on the stand and say they feared for their lives, then that's going to help the defendant. OTOH if he is the only one who says he was afraid, that would be another story.

I wouldn't assume a NY jury will convict. They acquitted Bernard Goetz back in the 80's in a similarly ambiguous situation, but without Goetz having any supporting witnesses.

 

[aigomorla]

PTSD is a real thing.

I have a buddy who served.
Now the only time he can tollerate a loud bang is if its a video game.
And slowly he's using it to desensitize himself via it, by pretending all loud bangs are not bullets being shot over his head, but from video games.

If you don't have or know anyone who suffers from PTSD, you shouldn't be talking about it like your reading it from some magazine.

PTSD is real, and it can make a ex solider SNAP for no reason at any given time if the proper stimulus is given.


Again, i am not saying he is completely innocent.
But he isn't entirely guilty as well.
I do think he should get charged with invol. Manslaughter like that charge was intended.
But he should be given the full minimum's with possibly forced therapy, along with other medical help he may require.

Taking a life, from PTSD or not will cause even more PTSD. (Police officers who kill suspects in shootings)
Unless he's a serial killer, which he definitely is not.