[JPR] GPU market up—Intel and Nvidia graphics winners in Q4, AMD down

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Is that just a hunch or is that stated somewhere?

Well, I did say "I think" and "I bet" to denote that it was opinion and not fact.

My original comment was how sales of consoles has been pretty demanding, and AMD may not have foreseen such a demand. That could have caused a supply issue, where it meant that PC products could not be produced.

For example, Sony used GDDR5 for their system, this could have caused a lack of supply for the GPUs they make for PCs.

Or, GF is cranking out console chips at a priority over PC chips, as requested by AMD.

It could be multiple issue, and my opinion was posted as a possibility that I felt was likely.
 

ICDP

Senior member
Nov 15, 2012
707
0
0
Huh? I believe you've said exactly the opposite of what you actually mean.

No, I said the mining craze effect on the overall sales would not show until Q1 because the mining craze didn't begin until the very end of Q3. I also believe that the mining craze is not the sole factor in the shortages in the US. This is because in the UK and Europe, AMD GPU stock has been available at MSRP since R9 release.

The only time price gouging effected UK prices was when pre-orders became available for initial R9 290X release and the custom cooled versions. Since both are now in stock almost everywhere we are actually getting mini price wars between retailers. It is possible to get R9 custom cooled cards for reference prices.
 

Slomo4shO

Senior member
Nov 17, 2008
586
0
71
You mean all that crazy mining demand didn't do squat?

Notebooks were the hardest hit sector for AMD. They finally got their mobile R9 290s available to the market this quarter and they completely failed to launch a mobile product that was competitive with haswell for the holiday season. Hence why I, much like most other consumers, opted for Intel for both of laptop purchases during the holiday season...
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Overall graphics shipments dropping 10% during a release quarter is not good.

Although their whole lineup is basically 3 years old, with the exception of two cards that are extremely niche, as well as limited in supply.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Think people are getting far to carried away with mining which is a recent thing pretty well focused on NA only. AMD mostly lost out because their mobile solutions aren't up to scratch. Their architecture isn't power efficient enough and their drivers don't work well enough. As mobile sales > desktop sales that's very important.

It's a real problem for AMD going forward as their current solution has been to release cards with even higher power requirements. You can get away with that in high end desktop but it's a dead end for laptops - they can't even compete well with Kepler, let alone Maxwell.

This.

Mobile losses will continue until AMD focuses on efficiency for their mobile part. Maxwell will really start putting the screws to AMD, based on the reviews we have seen so far.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
How is AMD enduro this days? I feel like this could be one of the major reasons their mobile market share is tanking
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
How is AMD enduro this days? I feel like this could be one of the major reasons their mobile market share is tanking



That's part of the reason, the other reason is that generally AMD has not had compelling mobile parts in terms of performance per watt in years. This applies to both their mobility APUs and their mobile dGPUs - once they cut these parts down for appropriate TDP, the performance is very poor (particularly with their mobility APUs). In terms of mobile dGPUs, they have high performance parts but the performane per watt (which directly affects battery life) has paled in comparison to Kepler mobile designs, which has generally done very well in the mobile market. The bottom line is nobody wants an ultrabook with a mobile dGPU that affects battery life so negatively as to make a 1000$+ purchase worthless. This problem will only magnify with Maxwell since GM107 doubles the performance per watt over Kepler - and GM107 is actually of an appropriate TDP to be used in ultrabooks. The nearest competing AMD part with a similar TDP, the R7-250 (65W TDP) performs far worse; if memory serves it performs at less than half the speed of GM107.

Enduro is usually non functional if you go to various websites such as notebookcheck, there are numerous complaints about this on various review websites. I think that's a large part of the reason why OEMs have shied away from AMD mobile dGPUs (with a few exceptions of course). This all goes back to AMD's software, which, honestly I feel is AMD's biggest detriment these days. Their software engineering team just does not have enough people or funding and their software suffers directly as a result. Enduro is a great example of this, whereas optimus generally just works.

Now AMD is still doing pretty well for the desktop LGA market with their APUs and desktop dGPUs, and they obviously are selling a ton of console chips. So they're doing fine and I think their financial stability will be fine in the coming years. But their focus should be on mobile first and foremost, and it just seems they're not focusing enough. Their mobile market share has been suffering because of poor performance per watt across the board. But the key here is that AMD's biggest downfall is their software (including their dual graphics Enduro), IMO, and this is what they need to get in order first and foremost. Maybe now since they're not in the red any longer they can throw more money at their software engineering team, because that should be their first order of business. They spend too much on their marketing and not enough on their software, with the latter being far more important as it directly affects the success and consumer perception of their products. Hopefully AMD can get this in order, because they really need to cut their marketing (which IMO they spend the majority of their money aside from R+D) and fund their software more. Great hardware is worthless with poor software.
 
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Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
That's part of the reason, the other reason is that generally AMD has not had compelling mobile parts in terms of performance per watt in years. This applies to both their mobility APUs and their mobile dGPUs - once they cut these parts down for appropriate TDP, the performance is very poor (particularly with their mobility APUs). In terms of mobile dGPUs, they have high performance parts but the performane per watt (which directly affects battery life) has paled in comparison to Kepler mobile designs, which has generally done very well in the mobile market. The bottom line is nobody wants an ultrabook with a mobile dGPU that affects battery life so negatively as to make a 1000$+ purchase worthless.

Do you have anything to back this up?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Would you like me to spoonfeed google it for you? Or do you think you could perhaps do it? It isn't exactly a secret that Kepler.M far outsold mobility Radeons from 2012 to 2014. Most ultrabook with dGPU designs, generally nearly all of them that did have mobile dGPUs used kepler. Well over 80% of design wins over AMD within the ultrabook mobile dGPU market if memory serves. Feel free to look at appropriate financial results and design wins for Kepler mobile parts from 2012-2014 - in particular from Lenovo, Apple, etc etc.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
Looks like you didn't get it, I was't asking about marketshare... I will try again:
That's part of the reason, the other reason is that generally AMD has not had compelling mobile parts in terms of performance per watt in years. This applies to both their mobility APUs and their mobile dGPUs - once they cut these parts down for appropriate TDP, the performance is very poor (particularly with their mobility APUs). In terms of mobile dGPUs, they have high performance parts but the performane per watt (which directly affects battery life) has paled in comparison to Kepler mobile designs, which has generally done very well in the mobile market. The bottom line is nobody wants an ultrabook with a mobile dGPU that affects battery life so negatively as to make a 1000$+ purchase worthless.
Can you back this up somehow?
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
7
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Well, I did say "I think" and "I bet" to denote that it was opinion and not fact.

My original comment was how sales of consoles has been pretty demanding, and AMD may not have foreseen such a demand. That could have caused a supply issue, where it meant that PC products could not be produced.

For example, Sony used GDDR5 for their system, this could have caused a lack of supply for the GPUs they make for PCs.

Or, GF is cranking out console chips at a priority over PC chips, as requested by AMD.

It could be multiple issue, and my opinion was posted as a possibility that I felt was likely.

I do admit that your proposal is interesting: AMD supply the new consoles has effected their ability to meet their PC demand. BUT-

But a gddr5 shortage? This should have a much bigger impact. It would be hard for Nvidia to be growing in both sales and market share if their was a ddr5 shortage. Perhaps its just AMDs ration of DDR5 being used up, that there is only so much to go around. i dont know but you would think there has to be something keeping AMD from having supply. There is no two ways about it, AMD is missing out on real money by not having enough supply in their upper tier GPU segments. This is very unfortunate. These are typically high margin products, nothing to kid around about. And here we are, months into a very high demand that AMD hasnt been able to serve.

And perhaps we could take this a little deeper. If this is because of their console commitments then obviously they have made decisions to sacrifice. Perhaps there is deeper reasons as to why Nvidia opted out this round, firmly stating: we were not gonna do it at the price those guys were willing to pay. There is always trade offs and the choices you make must be made carefully.

And perhaps AMD knew the risk and the trade off. Short term, for sure. And maybe this is where mantle came from. They bite the bullet short term but attempt to leverage the consoles long term to balance it out.

It is an interesting prospect. But it doesnt have to be DDR5. It could be any component AMD uses for their graphics. The obligation to do consoles has got to be huge. Millions of millions of GPUs. Too bad there are slim margins. But you would think that its not really bad cause they are still making money. True true. But everything you do as a company has a cost. If you put time in it, it has a dollar cost. But it doesnt end there. Every minute you put in one thing is a minute gone, it is spent. So you have to be careful where you put your time and energy. You'll want to put it on the things that have the most pay off, in the end. This is a given.

But i t is not always so simple. Your decision may also cause collateral damage to other things, like deciding to go drinking instead of going to work. Of course you would loose your chance of earning your pay that day, but what if your drinking causes you to run off and wreck your car? Your car is busted and you go to jail. You cannot be reckless, it just doesnt pay.

But the point is, you have to weigh your decisions. A low margin console win is one thing but it also takes you resources away from something else. But now if it consequentially prevents sales of your high margin GPU segments, it is a much more serious issue. A big gamble. And perhaps AMD thought they would use mantle as justification? I dont know.

If these shortages are a result of their console obligations, then i would seriously question AMDs decision making. Seems awfully risky to me. A gamble. I am not sure AMD should be rolling the dice.

When your cards are in short supply, you are losing sales. That is money lost. Money on large margin parts. Not only that but people who set out to buy an AMD card would buy an Nvidia card because of inflated prices. Some of their core user base now pushed straight into their competitions hands. And possibly lost to nvidia forever as most people already prefer their products. AMD is pushing their customers to Nvidia. And this cannot be good. But......it doesnt stop

In the meantime..... nvidia has decided that they would enable mining capabilities on their Maxwell GPUs. The lowest GM107 is extremely efficient at mining, really nothing close to it. And the chances of it catching on really seem to be high. If the AMD shortage is caused by their console obligations, Nvidia is completely freed from such. They would be able to supply the chips in truck loads.

one thing leads to another....to another.....to another....
This is why i say your proposal is interesting. Decisions your company make have a domino effect. The truth is, regardless of how the shortage exist, it does. It is pushing more gamers to Nvidia, gamers that wouldnt even be in the market for an Nvidia GPU. Also, at the same time Maxwell is readying rolling out and mining will no longer be an AMD only thing. The GM107 is hands down the most efficient GPU mining card there is. Nothing close. So this market is quickly moving while AMD shortages exist. There are opportunities being lost forever and you suggest it might be all at the hand of AMD themselves. Interesting
 

Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,134
1,411
136
What a debacle. AMD better get their [act] together with R10's or whatever they are going to call it, I'm not going to wait if NVIDIA comes through with their new 20nm.

Its just absurd AMD couldn't see the high demand with the MSRP they set, they knew the cards were great price to performance value and had the potential for miners to jump in.

Profanity isn't allowed in the technical forums.
-- stahlhart
 
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