Judge forces Apple to unlock iPhone

[Virge_]

one thing i have a hard time believing is that the NSA can't hack this phone. they can't hack commercial encrpytion? they can't defeat a self destruct device? The Russians, Chinese, and European governments, agents and spies all have better devices than iphones. Have they gone soft going after terrorists holed up in a goat den on a remote mountain side?

This is not a technical issue, it's a political pissing contest.

 

[Darwin333]

Back door... encryption. It seems foolish to believe in a concept of "back door." Encryption is encryption. It's a mathematical process. If there's a way for companies to decrypt the data, then there's NOTHING preventing hackers from using the same means to decrypt the data. People seem to think it's some sort of "push a button" process. Back door is front door.

They are asking Apple to make a custom version of IOS that they can load "ota" so to say while the phone is still locked which would basically allow them to brute force the password. Not a "backdoor" perse but more of a disabling of existing security measures.

Once the tool exists though there is no reason in the world to believe that it won't kept and used again. As I said earlier, once something like this is made and used it always finds it way into the wild. I've even read some articles that say that theoretically something like this could be used over wifi/bluetooth so it might not even require physical access to your phone. That alone, if true, is scary as hell and reason enough that Congress should ban any such tool from being created. Otherwise it would be easier for Congress to pass a law requiring everyone to register their passwords with the Federal Government. Could you imagine if .gov phones had similar software that could be pushed OTA without the users knowledge?

 

[maddogchen]

We had a speaker from the FBI come to our school to give a presentation. She was an "expert," yet didn't know how to make a video she was showing the audience full screen. I don't know - maybe she was misstating her credentials to give her presentation more credibility, or maybe they're not as sophisticated as we might hope.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/08/politics/hackers-fbi-employee-info/

20,000 FBI employee's personal info and addresses were leaked recently. The hackers got the information of one employee, was able to call and impersonate the employee to get access. And once they had remote access to that employee's computer, they were able to find the 20,000 employee files just sitting there on their internal network in the open instead of inside a secure database inside a secure internal network and not available to all employees.

So yes, the FBI are not as sophisticated as we might hope.

 

[dainthomas]

And no terrorist is ever going to bust down your door and spray you and your family with lead, but you easily give up freedoms. Why?

Lol, what freedoms? I'm rocking a Note4. I don't even have a lock code on it.

I suppose they could amuse themselves reading my text conversations with my gf. They're mostly boring. :sneaky: Nothing else on there, though.

 

[Jaskalas]

Lol, what freedoms? I'm rocking a Note4. I don't even have a lock code on it.

I suppose they could amuse themselves reading my text conversations with my gf. They're mostly boring. :sneaky: Nothing else on there, though.

And if those conversations were made public and someone did not like you.
They'd have a sort of ammunition for character assassination. Or maybe your employer doesn't like the content and fires you. Your landlord evicts you, etc...

"I'm not important" is no excuse for eliminating the 4th amendment and subjecting all private behavior to public scrutiny. There are many people who would be harmed by that.

 

[Darwin333]

They can unlock the one unit...the problem is the feds want to be involved or at least be present as it happen!! That way they can invade all our phones....

Apple will win this hands down!!

No. The government doesn't want to be present while apple unlocks the phone. The government wants Apple to design a new version of IOS that disables the auto-wipe after X amount of failed attempts that can be pushed to a locked phone OTA. The phone would still be locked with the original password after the OTA upgrade but the government would then be able to very easily brute force the phone. So Apple wouldn't actually be unlocking the phone at all, just disabling the features that currently prevent trivially easy brute force attacks. As someone else said, if this got into the wild, and shit like this always does, any script kiddie could brute force any Iphone.

Currently Apple does not have the ability to unlock the phone which is why the Feds want them to design a custom version of IOS to disable the auto-wipe feature. If Apple could currently unlock the phone the .gov could simply get a warrant to force them unlock it.

 

[Darwin333]

We are talking about terrorists who killed 14 people, and the FBI is in possession of a court-issued warrant. Your rights are served.

I think people are losing sight here. It is not like the government randomly picking a citizen's phone to see what he or she is into. There are innocent people dead because of these terrorists - how about the rights of those dead citizens? Do they not deserve justice?

First of all the bad guys are dead, justice has been served. Secondly the data is months old so even from an intelligence standpoint the data simply isn't that valuable. Lastly they are asking for a tool that will allow them to bypass the security of not just this one phone but all iphones. You are crazy if you think that they will only use this tool this one time and then throw it away. Your even crazier if you think that it won't eventually get into the wild.

Like I said in a previous post, it's potentially possible for something like this to be used without even having physical access to the device.

 

[Darwin333]

Lol, what freedoms? I'm rocking a Note4. I don't even have a lock code on it.

I suppose they could amuse themselves reading my text conversations with my gf. They're mostly boring. :sneaky: Nothing else on there, though.

Another "I have nothing to hide so I don't care if they look through my shit" fool...

 

[dainthomas]

Another "I have nothing to hide so I don't care if they look through my shit" fool...

Well, not all of us can be as important as you.

 

[JSt0rm]

Well, not all of us can be as important as you.

Fast forward 300 years and all white people are being rounded up and phones checked. Dainthomas had nothing to hide back then.

 

[Rakehellion]

Lol, what freedoms? I'm rocking a Note4. I don't even have a lock code on it.

I suppose they could amuse themselves reading my text conversations with my gf. They're mostly boring. :sneaky: Nothing else on there, though.

Post the conversations here. All of them.

 

[Genx87]

one thing i have a hard time believing is that the NSA can't hack this phone. they can't hack commercial encrpytion? they can't defeat a self destruct device? The Russians, Chinese, and European governments, agents and spies all have better devices than iphones. Have they gone soft going after terrorists holed up in a goat den on a remote mountain side?

That is what I asked. The NSA builds entire data centers to crack this stuff. I think the FBI is using this tragedy to push an agenda so they can gain access easier. Most trogs will eat it up and say Apple is wrong, war on terror, where is my Carl Jrs?

 

[sm625]

Quoting Karl Denninger:

The government can compel you to testify either in person or by record production -- that is, they can compel you to turn over something you have. That's what a subpoena or court order does and we complied with these subpoenas as an ordinary matter of operations because there is nothing legally -- or constitutionally -- wrong with being compelled to testify (whether by document or by personal utterance) to the truth before a court of law.

But the government has no power to compel you to make that which you do not have.

It does not matter if the government is offering to pay Apple or not, nor does it matter how much they are offering to pay. There is no authority anywhere in the Constitution and in fact there is an explicit prohibition against involuntary servitude, with pay or not, in the 13th Amendment:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Apple not only has not been convicted of a crime it has not even been accused of an offense.

There is simply no authority for the FBI or any other organ of the government to compel the company to make anything. They can compel the firm to hand over something the company possesses under due process of law but in this case the operating system version they wish to obtain does not exist.

A judicially-issued demand to Apple, or anyone else, that reads "Write software to do X for us" is facially invalid.

 

[JSt0rm]

good

 

[stlc8tr]

one thing i have a hard time believing is that the NSA can't hack this phone. they can't hack commercial encrpytion? they can't defeat a self destruct device? The Russians, Chinese, and European governments, agents and spies all have better devices than iphones. Have they gone soft going after terrorists holed up in a goat den on a remote mountain side?

There are no known cracks for AES. If you know of one, you could make a fortune selling it to the various governments.

 

[Nebor]

That is what I asked. The NSA builds entire data centers to crack this stuff. I think the FBI is using this tragedy to push an agenda so they can gain access easier. Most trogs will eat it up and say Apple is wrong, war on terror, where is my Carl Jrs?

I tend to think the same thing. The NSA has traditionally been 15-20 years ahead of the rest of the world in cryptology\hacking. Why not create their own iOS update to do what the FBI is asking to do? The NSA has virtually unlimited resources and time.

 

[realibrad]

I tend to think the same thing. The NSA has traditionally been 15-20 years ahead of the rest of the world in cryptology\hacking. Why not create their own iOS update to do what the FBI is asking to do? The NSA has virtually unlimited resources and time.

Because they want a backdoor for all iphones. If it were really that big of a deal to crack a single phone they would. What they want is the legal standing to say that all companies need to leave a back door. If they can force apple to build something to break their security, other companies will have to do the same.

 

[Brian Stirling]

That is what I asked. The NSA builds entire data centers to crack this stuff. I think the FBI is using this tragedy to push an agenda so they can gain access easier. Most trogs will eat it up and say Apple is wrong, war on terror, where is my Carl Jrs?

Yes, this is ultimately an effort to get the public behind even more pervasive spying. The revelations from Snowden moved the public away from pervasive spying and the government is trying to swing us back to tolerating it. What better gambit than to accuse Apple of being in league with terrorists,

But, by far the most disturbing thing for me is the high number of brain dead folks that constantly say insanely stupid shit like "I have nothing to hide". I'm not a violent man but by god I want to gut punch fuckers that say that!


Brian

 

[dainthomas]

As long as we're throwing out Area 51/Grassy knoll conspiracies, maybe the FBI/NSA/whoever already HAS a backdoor and this whole spat is just a smokescreen to make terrorists think they have more security than they actually do.

Would any of you actually KNOW if there was?

It's not any less credible than people being summarily rounded up to have their phones checked.

 

[PokerGuy]

As long as we're throwing out Area 51/Grassy knoll conspiracies, maybe the FBI/NSA/whoever already HAS a backdoor and this whole spat is just a smokescreen to make terrorists think they have more security than they actually do.

Would any of you actually KNOW if there was?

In fact that's very well possible, but not likely. Obviously , if the NSA had the technology to crack encryption (perhaps using quantum computing etc), they would do absolutely everything in their power to keep that fact a secret, and they would not go sharing that info with other agencies (even the FBI). They certainly wouldn't let the cat out of the bag by cracking encryption in such a (relatively) low value case.

I suspect the FBI has the resources to get to the information on this phone, but they view this as an opportunity to be able to get to the information on all phones, not just this one.

It's not any less credible than people being summarily rounded up to have their phones checked.

Nobody needs to be rounded up to have their phone checked, they are already able to spy on all data being sent to / from the phone. I'm guessing they want to be able to access the phone remotely without needing physical contact (using bluetooth, wifi, nfc etc), that would make it extremely easy to gain access to whatever info they want with the subject being completely unaware.

 

[3chordcharlie]

By even attempting to access this phone, the government is violating the DMCA and is at risk of statutory damages of $25,000 per violation and up to $500,000 criminal fine and 5 years imprisonment

 

[JEDIYoda]

By even attempting to access this phone, the government is violating the DMCA and is at risk of statutory damages of $25,000 per violation and up to $500,000 criminal fine and 5 years imprisonment

nobody cares,,,all that knowledge is worthless!

 

[lopri]

I am a little confused because the FBI says that it seeks Apple's help for the only one phone under a court warrant (which is how I understood the story yesterday) and Apple says FBI demands a new iOS update with built-in backdoor for law enforcement purposes.

 

[lopri]

First of all the bad guys are dead, justice has been served.

Really, so if some bad guy shows up at your home and massacre your family before he blows up his brain, would you not want to know why? How nice of him for serving justice himself so that we do not have to waste our time? And everyone should go about with their business as if nothing happened?

I find it odd because it was not long ago some people thought we should round up 11 million people and dump them in the ocean because one of them committed murder (1 victim) in San Francisco. People's ideas of justice appear so disproportionate and incongruent sometimes.

 

[Bowfinger]

I am a little confused because the FBI says that it seeks Apple's help for the only one phone under a court warrant (which is how I understood the story yesterday) and Apple says FBI demands a new iOS update with built-in backdoor for law enforcement purposes.

Here's an excellent article on ArsTechnica.