Judgement day coming -- for the neocons

Used Rugs

Member
Jul 14, 2006
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The Democrats are determined to make the election of 2006 a referendum on Bush and the war in Iraq. And, as of now, that is how history will likely record it.

But beneath the surface of the national election, a different plebiscite is being held, within the conservative movement, on the ideology George Bush imposed on Ronald Reagan's party.

What are the elements of Bushite neoconservatism?

First, an interventionist foreign policy, using U.S. power to impose democracy and "end tyranny on this earth." Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon are the laboratories and proving ground.

Second, "Big Government Conservatism," as seen in the deficits, the dearth of vetoes, soaring social spending in wartime, the bulking up of the Department of Education and "faith-based initiatives" -- LBJ-style cash grants to pastors and parsons for Social Gospel work, to reap a harvest of gratitude from the pulpits in elections to come.

Third, a La Raza immigration policy, featuring amnesty and a "path to citizenship" for 12 million illegal aliens, pardons for all businesses that hired illegals, and outsourcing of immigration policy to Corporate America to go abroad and hire workers for jobs here Americans cannot take at the wages offered.

Fourth, a trade policy rooted in the belief that it does not matter where goods are produced or whether Americans produce them. What matters is unimpeded global commerce, where the consumer is king and gets all the goods he wants at the cheapest possible price.

On these four mega-questions, Republicans are as divided as they were in the days of Rockefeller and Goldwater. Where the Right unites -- on tax cuts, John Roberts and Sam Alito -- the president has the nation behind him.

Wherever "conservatives" stand -- whether Old Right or neocon, supply-sider or deficit hawk, America First or global democrat, Big Government or small government -- the returns of Bush's policies are largely in and the outcome unlikely to change. And this is why Bush and the GOP are in trouble, and neoconservatism is in the dock.

The altarpiece of the Bush foreign policy is Iraq. American dead are at 2,600, the wounded at 18,000. Three hundred billion dollars has been plunged into the war. Yet, Iraq is a bloodier, more dangerous place than it has been since the fall of Baghdad. One hundred are being killed every day, half of them in the capital. IED attacks on U.S. troops are at record levels -- three-and-a-half years after Baghdad fell.

The Bush democracy campaign brought stunning electoral gains for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hamas in Palestine, Hezbollah in Lebanon and Moqtada al-Sadr in Iraq. Our ally Hamid Kharzai is today little more than mayor of Kabul, as the Taliban roam the southeast and coalition casualties reach the highest levels since liberation, five years ago.

North Korea and Iran remain defiant on their nuclear programs. Vladimir Putin is befriending every regime at odds with Bush, from Tehran to Damascus to Caracas. Neocon meddling in The Bear's backyard has gotten us bit.

Unless we grade foreign policy on the nobility of the intent, which is how the liberals used to defend disasters like Yalta, it is not credible to call Bush's foreign policy a success. The Lebanon debacle, once U.S. complicity is exposed, is unlikely to win anyone a Nobel.

Bush's trade policy has left us with annual deficits of $800 billion with the world and $200 billion with Beijing. Once the greatest creditor nation in history, we are now the greatest debtor. U.S. manufacturing has been hollowed out with thousands of plants closed and 3 million industrial jobs vanishing since Bush took office.

As for Bush immigration policy, the nation is in virtual rebellion. Six million aliens have been caught at the Mexican border since he took office. One in 12 had a criminal record. In April-May, millions of Hispanics marched through U.S. cities demanding amnesty and all rights of citizenship for aliens who are breaking the law by even being here. Bush and the Senate are in paralysis, appeasing the lawbreakers by offering amnesties and by opposing House demands that the president seal the border before the invasion brings an end to the America we once knew.

While the economy has been running well since 2003, creating jobs, and the markets are performing well, the real wages of working Americans have not kept pace with the portfolios of the clients of Lawrence Kudlow. Industrial states, like Ohio, could be killing fields of the GOP in November.

To the neocon guru Irving Kristol, "The historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be ... to convert the Republican Party and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy."

With some of us, the tutoring never took, but the neocons surely did convert George W. How's your boy doing, Irving?

By Patrick J. Buchanan a Republican

We Americans are starting to wake up. My dad and his brother life long Republicans are no longer going to vote republican. I got my dad into researching politics on the web and we talk once a week about the way this country is be ran into the ground.

The Story
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To Used Rugs,

I agree with much of what you are saying----but I somewhat see little difference between Reagan and Bush----both were exactly counter republican---which is supposed to be the party of fiscal conservatism----but the fact is that both Bush and Reagan are 1 and 2 on the list of defecit spending administrations---since the final butchers bill is not yet in on the Bush administration---it won't be know for some time which is numero uno defecit spender inflation adjusted.---and both champion the same policy--boom times by unrestricted debt and foreign imports---let someone else worry about paying it back.

But old Ronnie had a pragmatism GW lacks----Ronnie didn't get us mired in Afganistan--he used the Mugahadeen---who later morfed into Al-Quida and bit us on 911.---and when he sent LEE Iocacca over to do some Japanese bashing over trade defecits---and the Japs somehow missed the next T-bill auction--old Ronnie was smart enough to shut his yap.
And Ronnie was also smart enough to follow the Powell doctrine---and basically limited his war making to killing Kadaffi's grand daughter---or the Iran Contra thing where he got lots of other people killed. But after Ronnie---came George H.---who found all the money already spent---and he and later Clinton were able to finially claw there way back to a balanced budget and a slight surplus------neither were great Presidents---but neither did anything stupid either---and just not stupid is a hell of a lot better than we have now. and all it takes to get a good economy.

But GWB is stupidity on steroids---and without a lick of common sense---in one year he spent all the surplus and is blazing new trails deeper in the red. Now he is mired in Ieaq and is losing the war against terrorism---its his face--not the face of Osama who is on the terrorists recruiting posters.

BuT GWB has a great salesman---Karl Rove---and the American people are just eating it up---the jury is still out on the midterm elections---why we could be in that war against Iran any time. Always a crowd pleaser----until Bush the bumbler blows another one---but as long as they get through 11/06---who knows what old Karl will do to sell his brother Jeb in 08.

But one day our creditors will come and say pay up---no more imports for you---and then the chickens will come home to roost---don't be the party in power when that happens.

Because the sheepish American people just won't understand it when that foreign manufacter says---in god we trust---all others pay cash---and here we will have lost the capacity to make our own clothes---or even Christmas decorations.---and it will be just that naked fact---there just is no Santa Claus.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Used Rugs
The Democrats are determined to make the election of 2006 a referendum on Bush and the war in Iraq. And, as of now, that is how history will likely record it.

But beneath the surface of the national election, a different plebiscite is being held, within the conservative movement, on the ideology George Bush imposed on Ronald Reagan's party.

What are the elements of Bushite neoconservatism?

First, an interventionist foreign policy, using U.S. power to impose democracy and "end tyranny on this earth." Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon are the laboratories and proving ground.

Second, "Big Government Conservatism," as seen in the deficits, the dearth of vetoes, soaring social spending in wartime, the bulking up of the Department of Education and "faith-based initiatives" -- LBJ-style cash grants to pastors and parsons for Social Gospel work, to reap a harvest of gratitude from the pulpits in elections to come.

Third, a La Raza immigration policy, featuring amnesty and a "path to citizenship" for 12 million illegal aliens, pardons for all businesses that hired illegals, and outsourcing of immigration policy to Corporate America to go abroad and hire workers for jobs here Americans cannot take at the wages offered.

Fourth, a trade policy rooted in the belief that it does not matter where goods are produced or whether Americans produce them. What matters is unimpeded global commerce, where the consumer is king and gets all the goods he wants at the cheapest possible price.

On these four mega-questions, Republicans are as divided as they were in the days of Rockefeller and Goldwater. Where the Right unites -- on tax cuts, John Roberts and Sam Alito -- the president has the nation behind him.

Wherever "conservatives" stand -- whether Old Right or neocon, supply-sider or deficit hawk, America First or global democrat, Big Government or small government -- the returns of Bush's policies are largely in and the outcome unlikely to change. And this is why Bush and the GOP are in trouble, and neoconservatism is in the dock.

The altarpiece of the Bush foreign policy is Iraq. American dead are at 2,600, the wounded at 18,000. Three hundred billion dollars has been plunged into the war. Yet, Iraq is a bloodier, more dangerous place than it has been since the fall of Baghdad. One hundred are being killed every day, half of them in the capital. IED attacks on U.S. troops are at record levels -- three-and-a-half years after Baghdad fell.

The Bush democracy campaign brought stunning electoral gains for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hamas in Palestine, Hezbollah in Lebanon and Moqtada al-Sadr in Iraq. Our ally Hamid Kharzai is today little more than mayor of Kabul, as the Taliban roam the southeast and coalition casualties reach the highest levels since liberation, five years ago.

North Korea and Iran remain defiant on their nuclear programs. Vladimir Putin is befriending every regime at odds with Bush, from Tehran to Damascus to Caracas. Neocon meddling in The Bear's backyard has gotten us bit.

Unless we grade foreign policy on the nobility of the intent, which is how the liberals used to defend disasters like Yalta, it is not credible to call Bush's foreign policy a success. The Lebanon debacle, once U.S. complicity is exposed, is unlikely to win anyone a Nobel.

Bush's trade policy has left us with annual deficits of $800 billion with the world and $200 billion with Beijing. Once the greatest creditor nation in history, we are now the greatest debtor. U.S. manufacturing has been hollowed out with thousands of plants closed and 3 million industrial jobs vanishing since Bush took office.

As for Bush immigration policy, the nation is in virtual rebellion. Six million aliens have been caught at the Mexican border since he took office. One in 12 had a criminal record. In April-May, millions of Hispanics marched through U.S. cities demanding amnesty and all rights of citizenship for aliens who are breaking the law by even being here. Bush and the Senate are in paralysis, appeasing the lawbreakers by offering amnesties and by opposing House demands that the president seal the border before the invasion brings an end to the America we once knew.

While the economy has been running well since 2003, creating jobs, and the markets are performing well, the real wages of working Americans have not kept pace with the portfolios of the clients of Lawrence Kudlow. Industrial states, like Ohio, could be killing fields of the GOP in November.

To the neocon guru Irving Kristol, "The historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be ... to convert the Republican Party and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy."

With some of us, the tutoring never took, but the neocons surely did convert George W. How's your boy doing, Irving?

By Patrick J. Buchanan a Republican

We Americans are starting to wake up. My dad and his brother life long Republicans are no longer going to vote republican. I got my dad into researching politics on the web and we talk once a week about the way this country is be ran into the ground.

The Story

Yada yada yada, the Democrats still lose in 2006.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Used Rugs
I don't think so, unless Diebold comes to the rescue.

We'll see, I think Republicans will still be in control of congress after 06...
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
Yay time to switch to another party that will expand government in different areas. :thumbsdown:

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime, middle class income taxes will be 50%.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
I dont plan on voting republican for senate, havent checked out my house rep yet. But this idea the democrats are going to try and use the 06 election as a referendum on Bush and Iraq is like watching 04 all over.

How many times can you fail before it hits home?

Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Yay time to switch to another party that will expand government in different areas. :thumbsdown:

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime, middle class income taxes will be 50%.

Different areas or not, overall government expansion under full GOP control is going to be hard to match. Just Medicare RX benefit is going to cost trillions when all is said and done.
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Yay time to switch to another party that will expand government in different areas. :thumbsdown:

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime, middle class income taxes will be 50%.

Different areas or not, overall government expansion under full GOP control is going to be hard to match. Just Medicare RX benefit is going to cost trillions when all is said and done.

Possibly. I forsee huge spending in the healthcare area...even though over 50% of all healthcare dollars are spent by the government. It just doesn't stop, and most people won't get in return what they pay.

Ugh.....
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont plan on voting republican for senate, havent checked out my house rep yet. But this idea the democrats are going to try and use the 06 election as a referendum on Bush and Iraq is like watching 04 all over.

How many times can you fail before it hits home?

Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

Umm, so GOP is not going to run on 9/11 this cycle? Iraq is a huge liability for the GOP now, when in 2004 voters were still giving it a benefit of the doubt. Democrats better use Iraq. They should be running ads about how Iraq is taking up all our resources, and we still haven't caught Osama.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Yay time to switch to another party that will expand government in different areas. :thumbsdown:

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime, middle class income taxes will be 50%.


I think it is best to have the opposite party in congress. Considering they want to spend money in completely different areas, the end up not spending as much. I think that is what helped Clinton create surpluses.

Besides when the government is in gridlock it helps everyone, they can't raise taxes, spend money or restrict our rights.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont plan on voting republican for senate, havent checked out my house rep yet. But this idea the democrats are going to try and use the 06 election as a referendum on Bush and Iraq is like watching 04 all over.

How many times can you fail before it hits home?

Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

Umm, so GOP is not going to run on 9/11 this cycle? Iraq is a huge liability for the GOP now, when in 2004 voters were still giving it a benefit of the doubt. Democrats better use Iraq. They should be running ads about how Iraq is taking up all our resources, and we still haven't caught Osama.

There is a big difference between the GOP and the Democrats running on this platform. The GOP has been shown to win with this strategy where democrats fail.

But hey, try to prove the world wrong and keep trying to push a square peg into a circle hole.
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
Originally posted by: Zorba
I think it is best to have the opposite party in congress. Considering they want to spend money in completely different areas, the end up not spending as much. I think that is what helped Clinton create surpluses.

Besides when the government is in gridlock it helps everyone, they can't raise taxes, spend money or restrict our rights.

I have to agree with you there. The republicans were all good little scouts when Clinton was in office (although they failed to cut a ton of programs they said they would). Now they spend spend spend in all areas.

The problem that I have, though, is that Democrats tend to spend money in more dangerous areas like healthcare.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

If it weren't for the hatred of Bush, I doubt Kerry would've gotten half the votes he did.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Genx87
Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

If it weren't for the hatred of Bush, I doubt Kerry would've gotten half the votes he did.

I doubt that, I think Kerry could have won the last election if he didnt fumble his attempt to frame the fight around the war. He started off with his vietnam mantra and got smacked and failed to change the subject and ended up losing.

All he had to do was focus on job creation and use the willing media to show how bad the economy is percieved.

 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
The problem that I have, though, is that Democrats tend to spend money in more dangerous areas like healthcare.

I think the government is just letting itself get ripped off more and more. Healthcare is a great example of this, for example how the gov. can't negotiate for lower costs on drugs. Also military contracts have gotten insane, seems like suppliers can just keep raising the rates over and over and the government keeps paying. ~$200M for a new fighter is insane.

I think if the government just did proper oversight and ran departments efficiently, you could cut the budget by at least 25% without cutting any services, etc.

 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont plan on voting republican for senate, havent checked out my house rep yet. But this idea the democrats are going to try and use the 06 election as a referendum on Bush and Iraq is like watching 04 all over.

How many times can you fail before it hits home?

Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

Umm, so GOP is not going to run on 9/11 this cycle? Iraq is a huge liability for the GOP now, when in 2004 voters were still giving it a benefit of the doubt. Democrats better use Iraq. They should be running ads about how Iraq is taking up all our resources, and we still haven't caught Osama.

There is a big difference between the GOP and the Democrats running on this platform. The GOP has been shown to win with this strategy where democrats fail.

But hey, try to prove the world wrong and keep trying to push a square peg into a circle hole.

The hole has changed since 2004. You still don't get it? America is not on your side anymore.

Exhibit 1
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
When it comes down in the end, Americans are, without a doubt, most concerned about their safety and preventing more attacks on U.S. soil. Also, pretty much without a doubt, Americans believe the Republicans are doing far more to keep our country safer and being more aggressive overseas. They see the Democratic party as wanting to do nothing, and pull out of Iraq, Afgh, etc......... that's not what they want when their security is at risk.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I am not a believer in the power of prediction---right now the USA is a deeply confused and divided nation----and mixed messages abound.

But for the communists in 1917---someone shouted commrades we have been betrayed---and Lenin was in.

With eighty some days to election much can and will happen----but as unpopular as Bush was in 2004---Kerry lost when he failed to connect with the American people.

Yet some months later---when Bush tried to reform social security---the deep distrust of the American people made it apparent to all---we just don't trust GWB to meddle with something that important.

Somehow Katrina may be the damning symbol of this administration---an administration of optimists without a plan B when something less than the optimistic happens.

And without a defining event before election---don't bet on anything.

But certain natural forces can be counted on---and one such is our trade defecit---which went from in the black to the red sometime in the cusp between Carter and Reagan---and has been getting redder and redder ever since-----so don't blame just one President.

But what fool among us thinks we can just have a negative balance of trade forever?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Republicans are in a desperate position of hoping for a terrorist attack to save them this november.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: Extelleron
When it comes down in the end, Americans are, without a doubt, most concerned about their safety and preventing more attacks on U.S. soil. Also, pretty much without a doubt, Americans believe the Republicans are doing far more to keep our country safer and being more aggressive overseas. They see the Democratic party as wanting to do nothing, and pull out of Iraq, Afgh, etc......... that's not what they want when their security is at risk.

When did Hannity register here?

What the general population thinks is malleable and it's changing. The facts remain that the congress and president are doing less than a stellar job with homeland protection and the adventure in Iraq is a complete and utter failure, making no one safe, not even the Iraqis. We are making regimes like Iran and NK emboldened. No Democrats ever said pull out of Afghanistan, they are complaining that we cut and run into Iraq without ever finishing the job. So the spin may lead the lead to one perception in the public mind, but the truth is the opposite. I'm not sure you guys can run on purely 911 911 911 911 911 911 every election, it gets old. Eventually you will be held accountable for what you have accomplished in six years, which is not much good and lots of bad.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Yay time to switch to another party that will expand government in different areas. :thumbsdown:

I wouldn't be surprised if in my lifetime, middle class income taxes will be 50%.

Well a switch from spending billions on missiles, war machines, and pre-emptive campaigns to spending more on the domestic front might be a welcome change.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: Extelleron
When it comes down in the end, Americans are, without a doubt, most concerned about their safety and preventing more attacks on U.S. soil. Also, pretty much without a doubt, Americans believe the Republicans are doing far more to keep our country safer and being more aggressive overseas. They see the Democratic party as wanting to do nothing, and pull out of Iraq, Afgh, etc......... that's not what they want when their security is at risk.

When did Hannity register here?

What the general population thinks is malleable and it's changing. The facts remain that the congress and president are doing less than a stellar job with homeland protection and the adventure in Iraq is a complete and utter failure, making no one safe, not even the Iraqis. We are making regimes like Iran and NK emboldened. No Democrats ever said pull out of Afghanistan, they are complaining that we cut and run into Iraq without ever finishing the job. So the spin may lead the lead to one perception in the public mind, but the truth is the opposite. I'm not sure you guys can run on purely 911 911 911 911 911 911 every election, it gets old. Eventually you will be held accountable for what you have accomplished in six years, which is not much good and lots of bad.


Yet what would the Democrats have done differently? Even IF you see Iraq as a failure, which slowly it is becoming (we need a new strategy in Iraq, let's face it, we're not getting anywhere now) would the democrats have done anything better? The Democrats initially supported the Iraq invasion, even Kerry did. Now Democrats seem to want to pretend that Iraq would never have happened if they were in power. They say that if they had won in 2004, things would be very different. Yet I ask, WHAT exactly would have been different? The Democrats do alot of talking about how they could do things better, and alot less of actually doing something to make it better or telling us what THEY WOULD DO.
 
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