Judgement day coming -- for the neocons

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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Republicans will be held accountable for what they have (or have not) done, not for what Democrats would have done.
Democrats would have handed Iraq over to Iraqis, and said, you got your freedom, we'll support you best we can, but now it's up to you, not us, to stop fighting each other and build your country. Instead, we are getting more deeply involved in that mess, which is getting worse every day. How have the billions we spent and thousands of troops we lost since "mission accomplished" improved the situation in Iraq?
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: senseamp
Republicans will be held accountable for what they have (or have not) done, not for what Democrats would have done.
Democrats would have handed Iraq over to Iraqis, and said, you got your freedom, we'll support you best we can, but now it's up to you, not us, to stop fighting each other and build your country. Instead, we are getting more deeply involved in that mess, which is getting worse every day. How have the billions we spent and thousands of troops we lost since "mission accomplished" improved the situation in Iraq?

Yes, the democrats would have retreated from Iraq and let the new government crumble because it couldn't defend itself. What a great strategy, this shows how brilliant the Democratic party is. :disgust:
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
220
106
I think I'll vote with the MAJORITY... They have it right most of the time anyway....

I'm taking the "NO VOTE"... Screw em all I'll vote with the rest of 70% of america. It's borken and it can't be fixed besides it's all rigged. Good luck to those that believe!

 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Yet what would the Democrats have done differently? Even IF you see Iraq as a failure, which slowly it is becoming (we need a new strategy in Iraq, let's face it, we're not getting anywhere now) would the democrats have done anything better? The Democrats initially supported the Iraq invasion, even Kerry did. Now Democrats seem to want to pretend that Iraq would never have happened if they were in power. They say that if they had won in 2004, things would be very different. Yet I ask, WHAT exactly would have been different? The Democrats do alot of talking about how they could do things better, and alot less of actually doing something to make it better or telling us what THEY WOULD DO.

I guess we will never know, I cannot presume to know what they would do. Would they do the same things? I doubt it. Getting rid of Rumsfeld would be a good start, he is completely incompetent and ignores his top brass along with lying verytime he opens his mouth. Having Bush and co. make a cluster fck of Iraq and then saying that the Dems would do no better is lame, they could not have done worse. Don't blame the minority party, you need to hold those who have the power accountable, but that seems hard to do for the apologist around here.

You last sentence is down right laughable, what can they do? They cannot get legislation to the floor, it's killed by the Republicans. You blame them for talking, WTF is a opposition party that has no control over the congress or WH suppose to do? They can think of ideas all day long, but in the end only the republicans can do anything - yet they don't. This is one of the worse congresses in the last 100 years by many people's accounts. What they do get passed stinks and what they don't is worse. There approval rating is pathetic. But keep blaming the Dems, I'm sure it's there fault, at least Fox tells you that.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont plan on voting republican for senate, havent checked out my house rep yet. But this idea the democrats are going to try and use the 06 election as a referendum on Bush and Iraq is like watching 04 all over.

How many times can you fail before it hits home?

Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

Umm, so GOP is not going to run on 9/11 this cycle? Iraq is a huge liability for the GOP now, when in 2004 voters were still giving it a benefit of the doubt. Democrats better use Iraq. They should be running ads about how Iraq is taking up all our resources, and we still haven't caught Osama.

There is a big difference between the GOP and the Democrats running on this platform. The GOP has been shown to win with this strategy where democrats fail.

But hey, try to prove the world wrong and keep trying to push a square peg into a circle hole.

The hole has changed since 2004. You still don't get it? America is not on your side anymore.

Exhibit 1

Square peg meet round hole.
Some people just dont get it.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Yet what would the Democrats have done differently? Even IF you see Iraq as a failure, which slowly it is becoming (we need a new strategy in Iraq, let's face it, we're not getting anywhere now) would the democrats have done anything better? The Democrats initially supported the Iraq invasion, even Kerry did. Now Democrats seem to want to pretend that Iraq would never have happened if they were in power. They say that if they had won in 2004, things would be very different. Yet I ask, WHAT exactly would have been different? The Democrats do alot of talking about how they could do things better, and alot less of actually doing something to make it better or telling us what THEY WOULD DO.

I guess we will never know, I cannot presume to know what they would do. Would they do the same things? I doubt it. Getting rid of Rumsfeld would be a good start, he is completely incompetent and ignores his top brass along with lying verytime he opens his mouth. Having Bush and co. make a cluster fck of Iraq and then saying that the Dems would do no better is lame, they could not have done worse. Don't blame the minority party, you need to hold those who have the power accountable, but that seems hard to do for the apologist around here.

You last sentence is down right laughable, what can they do? They cannot get legislation to the floor, it's killed by the Republicans. You blame them for talking, WTF is a opposition party that has no control over the congress or WH suppose to do? They can think of ideas all day long, but in the end only the republicans can do anything - yet they don't. This is one of the worse congresses in the last 100 years by many people's accounts. What they do get passed stinks and what they don't is worse. There approval rating is pathetic. But keep blaming the Dems, I'm sure it's there fault, at least Fox tells you that.

The only legislature the Democrats have come up with says "Let's retreat and run from the problem we've created." The democrats want to forget everything and run like babies from Iraq. If they would bring something SENSIBLE to the floor of the Senate or House, they might actually get something done.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
It will be an interesting election (2008) if both parties come up with some fresh ideas and charismatic candidates.

Uh, so I guess it wont be an interesting election.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,843
8,432
136
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: Extelleron
When it comes down in the end, Americans are, without a doubt, most concerned about their safety and preventing more attacks on U.S. soil. Also, pretty much without a doubt, Americans believe the Republicans are doing far more to keep our country safer and being more aggressive overseas. They see the Democratic party as wanting to do nothing, and pull out of Iraq, Afgh, etc......... that's not what they want when their security is at risk.

When did Hannity register here?

What the general population thinks is malleable and it's changing. The facts remain that the congress and president are doing less than a stellar job with homeland protection and the adventure in Iraq is a complete and utter failure, making no one safe, not even the Iraqis. We are making regimes like Iran and NK emboldened. No Democrats ever said pull out of Afghanistan, they are complaining that we cut and run into Iraq without ever finishing the job. So the spin may lead the lead to one perception in the public mind, but the truth is the opposite. I'm not sure you guys can run on purely 911 911 911 911 911 911 every election, it gets old. Eventually you will be held accountable for what you have accomplished in six years, which is not much good and lots of bad.


Yet what would the Democrats have done differently? Even IF you see Iraq as a failure, which slowly it is becoming (we need a new strategy in Iraq, let's face it, we're not getting anywhere now) would the democrats have done anything better? The Democrats initially supported the Iraq invasion, even Kerry did. Now Democrats seem to want to pretend that Iraq would never have happened if they were in power. They say that if they had won in 2004, things would be very different. Yet I ask, WHAT exactly would have been different? The Democrats do alot of talking about how they could do things better, and alot less of actually doing something to make it better or telling us what THEY WOULD DO.

They never would have invaded in the first place. Thats a big difference. This administration has been all about invading Iraq since it came into office in '01. No invasion, no Iraq problem. It's such a BS strawman for the repubs to say "well we don't hear any better ideas from the left". Sort of like "we screwed up, but they don't have any idea how to fix our problem". Not making a mistake in the first place is much better than fixing it after the fact.
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
1
0
I am not, nor will I ever be, a Democrat, and my parents are life-long Republicans. I don't totally agree with the platform of either party, because that would make me a party-whore idiot incapable of thinking for myself or forming my own opinions, like many of the posters here.

However, I have only one thing to say to Bush and his administration; in the words of Oliver Cromwell, "You have sat too long for any good you have done. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you! In the name of God, go!!!"
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,576
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont plan on voting republican for senate, havent checked out my house rep yet. But this idea the democrats are going to try and use the 06 election as a referendum on Bush and Iraq is like watching 04 all over.

How many times can you fail before it hits home?

Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.



that pretty much sums it up. The dems need a solid platform to run on, not just party rhetoric full of vitriol and hate. some dems see this, not enough of them do.

A bad plan will get more votes than no plan at all.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: Extelleron
The only legislature the Democrats have come up with says "Let's retreat and run from the problem we've created." The democrats want to forget everything and run like babies from Iraq. If they would bring something SENSIBLE to the floor of the Senate or House, they might actually get something done.

That is a small minded Rush Limbaugh staement if I ever read one. You either ignore everything the Democrats say or just hear the spin version from the right wing noise machine. Are you suggesting in the last six years the only legislation the Democrats have authored was "Let's retreat and run"? Which legislation was that? I can only assume you are referring to Murtha, if so your charaterization is a regurgitation Fox news talking heads and is of course wrong. I suggest you actualy go dig up the info you ignorantly refer to. Check the bills, most never made it to the floor. You might also want to research the official party platform.

Your stance of Democrats ideas is akin to me saying "the only thing Republicans have done in the last six years is lie about WMDs and start a quagmire". Which is of course untrue, they have passed and tried to pass much much more.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,576
1
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
You either ignore everything the Democrats say or just hear the spin version from the right wing noise machine. Are you suggesting in the last six years the only legislation the Democrats have authored was "Let's retreat and run"? Which legislation was that? I can only assume you are referring to Murtha, if so your charaterization is a regurgitation Fox news talking heads and is of course wrong. I suggest you actualy go dig up the info you ignorantly refer to. Check the bills, most never made it to the floor. You might also want to research the official party platform.

Your stance of Democrats ideas is akin to me saying "the only thing Republicans have done in the last six years is lie about WMDs and start a quagmire". Which is of course untrue, they have passed and tried to pass much much more.


if that's the case, dems should put more energy into "all those other bills" and the "official party platform" instead of the smear campaign they've leveled against republicans

then again, the democratic "offical party platform" IS the removal of republicans -see for yourself:

Text
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: daveymark


if that's the case, dems should put more energy into "all those other bills" instead of the smear campaign they've leveled agianst republicans

At first I thought this was sarcasm, then I came to the scary realization you are serious.

What's next, tell the southern blacks circa 1930 to leave the KKK alone?
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,576
1
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
What's next, tell the southern blacks circa 1930 to leave the KKK alone?

What's scarier is you equate the Republican party with the KKK. again with the smear tactics. How long will it take for democrats to realize, they need to focus on the real issues? how many times do they need to lose elections before it finally hits home?

when the first item on the democratic agenda is the removal of republicans, people realize that the grasping of straws has begun.

Get some new leaders. I recommend Obama. At least he sees what kind of party the democrats have become.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Originally posted by: senseamp
Republicans will be held accountable for what they have (or have not) done, not for what Democrats would have done.
Democrats would have handed Iraq over to Iraqis, and said, you got your freedom, we'll support you best we can, but now it's up to you, not us, to stop fighting each other and build your country. Instead, we are getting more deeply involved in that mess, which is getting worse every day. How have the billions we spent and thousands of troops we lost since "mission accomplished" improved the situation in Iraq?

Yes, the democrats would have retreated from Iraq and let the new government crumble because it couldn't defend itself. What a great strategy, this shows how brilliant the Democratic party is. :disgust:

Yeah, it is much better to keep throwing American lives at the problem in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. Brilliant strategy you champion there. When does your life get put on the line like the others over there dying? :roll:
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: Todd33
What's next, tell the southern blacks circa 1930 to leave the KKK alone?

What's scarier is you equate the Republican party with the KKK. again with the smear tactics. How long will it take for democrats to realize, they need to focus on the real issues? how many times do they need to lose elections before it finally hits home?

when the first item on the democratic agenda is the removal of republicans, people realize that the grasping of straws has begun.

Get some new leaders. I recommend Obama. At least he sees what kind of party the democrats have become.

You are such a drama queen. Nice mis-characterization you used on the link you made, maybe you support corrupt politicians then? Anyhow this is a waste, it's like trying to talk to Ann Coultier, you are too far over the edge.

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
We Americans are starting to wake up. My dad and his brother life long Republicans are no longer going to vote republican. I got my dad into researching politics on the web and we talk once a week about the way this country is be ran into the ground.
I remember quite a few people posting similar predictions in 2004, and we all know how that turned out.

The Democrats have their own share of problems, such that they do not provide much of alternative to the Republicans...and many people will choose the devil they know as opposed to the devil they don't know.

I am still waiting for the Democrats to promote a vision of how they will steer America back on track...a quick scan across the political landscape doesn't offer many promising candidates for 2006 or 2008.

Hell, everyone said Lieberman was done for, and despite not winning his party's nomination, he is still leading in CT polls.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,576
1
0
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
We Americans are starting to wake up. My dad and his brother life long Republicans are no longer going to vote republican. I got my dad into researching politics on the web and we talk once a week about the way this country is be ran into the ground.
I remember quite a few people posting similar predictions in 2004, and we all know how that turned out.

The Democrats have their own share of problems, such that they do not provide much of alternative to the Republicans...and many people will choose the devil they know as opposed to the devil they don't know.

I am still waiting for the Democrats to promote a vision of how they will steer America back on track...a quick scan across the political landscape doesn't offer many promising candidates for 2006 or 2008.

Hell, everyone said Lieberman was done for, and despite not winning his party's nomination, he is still leading in CT polls.



ayup. it's the same thing, over and over again. the dems really need to step up and seriously take a look at the direction their party is headed. Democrats will be in for a surprise when they see the results of the 06 elections.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Used Rugs
The Democrats are determined to make the election of 2006 a referendum on Bush and the war in Iraq. And, as of now, that is how history will likely record it.

But beneath the surface of the national election, a different plebiscite is being held, within the conservative movement, on the ideology George Bush imposed on Ronald Reagan's party.

What are the elements of Bushite neoconservatism?

First, an interventionist foreign policy, using U.S. power to impose democracy and "end tyranny on this earth." Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon are the laboratories and proving ground.

Second, "Big Government Conservatism," as seen in the deficits, the dearth of vetoes, soaring social spending in wartime, the bulking up of the Department of Education and "faith-based initiatives" -- LBJ-style cash grants to pastors and parsons for Social Gospel work, to reap a harvest of gratitude from the pulpits in elections to come.

Third, a La Raza immigration policy, featuring amnesty and a "path to citizenship" for 12 million illegal aliens, pardons for all businesses that hired illegals, and outsourcing of immigration policy to Corporate America to go abroad and hire workers for jobs here Americans cannot take at the wages offered.

Fourth, a trade policy rooted in the belief that it does not matter where goods are produced or whether Americans produce them. What matters is unimpeded global commerce, where the consumer is king and gets all the goods he wants at the cheapest possible price.

On these four mega-questions, Republicans are as divided as they were in the days of Rockefeller and Goldwater. Where the Right unites -- on tax cuts, John Roberts and Sam Alito -- the president has the nation behind him.

Wherever "conservatives" stand -- whether Old Right or neocon, supply-sider or deficit hawk, America First or global democrat, Big Government or small government -- the returns of Bush's policies are largely in and the outcome unlikely to change. And this is why Bush and the GOP are in trouble, and neoconservatism is in the dock.

The altarpiece of the Bush foreign policy is Iraq. American dead are at 2,600, the wounded at 18,000. Three hundred billion dollars has been plunged into the war. Yet, Iraq is a bloodier, more dangerous place than it has been since the fall of Baghdad. One hundred are being killed every day, half of them in the capital. IED attacks on U.S. troops are at record levels -- three-and-a-half years after Baghdad fell.

The Bush democracy campaign brought stunning electoral gains for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hamas in Palestine, Hezbollah in Lebanon and Moqtada al-Sadr in Iraq. Our ally Hamid Kharzai is today little more than mayor of Kabul, as the Taliban roam the southeast and coalition casualties reach the highest levels since liberation, five years ago.

North Korea and Iran remain defiant on their nuclear programs. Vladimir Putin is befriending every regime at odds with Bush, from Tehran to Damascus to Caracas. Neocon meddling in The Bear's backyard has gotten us bit.

Unless we grade foreign policy on the nobility of the intent, which is how the liberals used to defend disasters like Yalta, it is not credible to call Bush's foreign policy a success. The Lebanon debacle, once U.S. complicity is exposed, is unlikely to win anyone a Nobel.

Bush's trade policy has left us with annual deficits of $800 billion with the world and $200 billion with Beijing. Once the greatest creditor nation in history, we are now the greatest debtor. U.S. manufacturing has been hollowed out with thousands of plants closed and 3 million industrial jobs vanishing since Bush took office.

As for Bush immigration policy, the nation is in virtual rebellion. Six million aliens have been caught at the Mexican border since he took office. One in 12 had a criminal record. In April-May, millions of Hispanics marched through U.S. cities demanding amnesty and all rights of citizenship for aliens who are breaking the law by even being here. Bush and the Senate are in paralysis, appeasing the lawbreakers by offering amnesties and by opposing House demands that the president seal the border before the invasion brings an end to the America we once knew.

While the economy has been running well since 2003, creating jobs, and the markets are performing well, the real wages of working Americans have not kept pace with the portfolios of the clients of Lawrence Kudlow. Industrial states, like Ohio, could be killing fields of the GOP in November.

To the neocon guru Irving Kristol, "The historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be ... to convert the Republican Party and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy."

With some of us, the tutoring never took, but the neocons surely did convert George W. How's your boy doing, Irving?

By Patrick J. Buchanan a Republican

We Americans are starting to wake up. My dad and his brother life long Republicans are no longer going to vote republican. I got my dad into researching politics on the web and we talk once a week about the way this country is be ran into the ground.

The Story

so who are bush's republicans any different that reagans republicans, other than bush hasn't gotten lucky.
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
0
0
It's not over until the fat lady sings.

To save their areses they will try to trump the future during their present reign.

It's the agenda driving the push towards preparation for total Nationwide martial law and the military coup that sustains it.

All they need is another 9-11 and for the defenders of the USA Constitution and those who remember our war dead to stand down and become bootlickers.

Also, the neocons are just the latest batch of employess who serve the layer above them. This batch get's recycled continuously to occupy America and keep we the people from having a truely representative Government.

Every batch of these career con artists thinks they are the chosen ones. Especially the current batch. The neo-fascist neocons. Since the JFK assassination these guys have been raised up to the level of superdupe they are now. A very unique crossroads is nearing in American history. Calling it Judgement Day is to not take seriously the other extremely dangerous possiblities that could alter history.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: Zorba
Originally posted by: Genx87
Find something new to run on, the hatred for Bush doesnt win you votes, only makes you look bitter and stupid when you lose.

If it weren't for the hatred of Bush, I doubt Kerry would've gotten half the votes he did.

if it weren't for the media, i doubt bush would have gotten half the votes he got.
 

randym431

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2003
1,270
1
0
We go thru this every 2 & 4 years. The (us) demo?s are convinced we HAVE and will win, then we don?t. I'll never forget James Carville's look on CNN election nite 2004. All the internet rumors that Bush was going to bite it, then he won and as the data came in James just looked sicker and sicker.

Problem is, republicans are very good at winning elections, but poor at governing. And then there is this war. Nixon got in only because Johnson would not run again, during that war. So people will end up keeping the republicans in, again.

We'll have to wait till 2008 for a chance at real change (a chance).

Too many people remember that democrats were in power for some 40 years, and we never got universal health care or any of the other things democrats say we need so badly now.

Money controls what is and isn?t done, regardless. That will not change. Congress LOVES $$$$$!

And there is that stigma democrats have to live with, that being way too many of us wont get off our arse on election day to even go vote.
 
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