Just got HOTTER!! Apex GB-4308 43" TV - $449.99 A/R, Apex GB-5108 51" Projection TV - $799.99

[Cybordolphin]

Kuhlman..

What I am saying is that you are wrong. Sorry.

Make some calls and find out what I am saying. Then see who is silly. Even your lowly CC salesman is likely to have the facts. As well as admittedly tell you the return on all big screens runs about par.

All projection big screens are built to last 4-5 years now. That is a fact. And the reason for this is mainly due to the inferior circuit board designs used, and the method in which the boards are produced. The solder joints are normally the culprit. This is due to poor manufacturing and trying to build an appliance that IF built right.... you and I could not afford. Or would not want to afford.

If the public in general had the mentality above a 6th grader (and they don't), it would quickly become obvious that you really are not saving anything are you? In fact you are still paying the price of a big screen built "right"..... you are just paying it over a much longer time. Instead of paying $6,000.00 for a big screen that will last 10 years... you are paying $2500.00 for a big screen that will last 4-5 years. And somehow that is acceptable to most the buyers out there. They can live with that. Even though it is rather "silly". And guess what.... because of this.... everyone is happy. Including you.

And what I am saying.... is your Mitsubishi will on average not last any longer than an RCA, SONY, PANASONIC, PIONEER, or any other big screen. But I bet you bought the Mitsubishi because someone told you it was the "best".
Not any more. And guess what.... it is still an appliance that was built to last 4-5 years. Unless you get very lucky.

Not for this forum or thread.... so I'll end the argument now.

I agree with canoner, except I think Samsung will give them a run for their money.

 

[Kuhlman]

I don't believe you.

Earlier in this thread you addressed RobsTv to try and validate one of your claims. RobsTv fixes TVs for a living. Here is what he says about your claim that projection TVs are made to last 4-5 years tops:

"Not at all true, and I am a highly experienced projection TV repairman (15+ years).
It all depends on the brand you buy. Big screens from decent companies should last more than 10 years before needing repair.

How some mentioned BS brands rate:
The gutter is Apex, RCA, GE, Proscan, Zenith (Goldstar).
Pioneer, Panasonic, NAP, Hitachi are near the bottom. Yes these have a better chance of failure within the first 5-8 years.
Toshiba, near the top if you consider it's low price.
Sony and Mits are at the top, and are examples of sets that "should" get you 10 to 15 years without problems"

Now back to your post...

No. I never said Mitsubishi was the "best" or that it would last longer than Panasonic, Pioneer or other brands, but RobsTV seems to think so and he only fixes these things for a living. There are other reasons for getting a brand like Mitsubishi over Apex besides longevity. Picture quality, reliability (ever heard of apex products spontaneously shutting down?) features, quality and speed of service and support if something goes wrong, fast access to parts on repairs, ease of calibration and configuration, etc. Do you think an Apex will match a Pioneer or Mitsubishi in longevity as well as these other areas? Where is your evidence? All I see is hot air. The fact is that you have no idea how Apex matches up with these other brands in these areas, yet you claim:

"There is nothing these tv's (Apex brand) won't have go wrong that any other brand big screen won't have go wrong."

You are the Anandtech version of Cliff Claven until you produce some facts or stats to back up your claims. Just say you don't know, because that is a fact.

 

[RobsTV]

Originally posted by: Cybordolphin
I have a question for RobsTV....

Isn't it true that ALL big screens are disposable. Built to last 4 years period. Plan on replacing power supply modules, or convergence boards (unless you want to solder the cold solder joints yourself). I praise Apex for selling a big screen for what it is worth.

I have yet to have a big screen last more than 4-5 years without having to either solder cold solder joints or replace modules.

(snip)

No, that is far from the truth.
"Most" bigscreens from the quality manufacturers, will last 10+ years before they have any problems.
The crap sets will fail within 2 to 4 years.
But as with anything, there will be exceptions to this general rule.
Some great sets will fail within 6 months, and some junk sets will last 20 years.
Cold solder joints usually appear while the TV is under warranty.

Many techs are only in this for the quick and easy money, and do not go into this for the challenge.
(many easy repairs take 15 minutes, use $1 part, and net $80+ profit).
But the good techs do know all about common problems and there solutions.
Not only am I a good tech, but I own the small company, and have to hire other techs.
I would guess that 1/4 of the techs out there are not capable of fixing 50% of the TV's made, and have no desire to.
Those amateur techs (many with more than 10 years exp) simply stick with the easy repairs, and overprice the ones they have no clue on.
Some of the worst techs you will find work at the major chains like CC or Radio Shack service centers (not all are bad).

While extended warranty's are a huge ripoff normally, Bigscreens are the only thing I suggest you purchase one with.
Warranty techs get paid big $$ to do little things for you, and are more than happy to come out and replace CRT's etc.
They also are familiar with the unit you have, and if it has known problems, they will correct it to make more $$.
The more they fix, the more they make. Warranty company pays for it all.


I have no clue where you are located, but it must be on some small island.
The shops here in Florida work together at times, and share info with other local shops, and techs.
Call any TV repair shop and ask how long quality Big Screens will last, and they will ALL say the same things as I did.
They "should" last at least 10+ years!!!!
While you are on the phone asking questions, ask about Apex TV quality, (many shops won't even repair them in the first place).
(WARNING: hold the phone away from your ear as laughing can cause damage).
Another place for some reference is the newsgroup I list in my sig.
But, since it is the internet, you need to know that some info posted is from clueless wannabees. That's why I said beginners.

Sorry but, anyone that puts RCA in the same sentence has Sony has no clue about what they are talking about.
RCA's do fall into that less than 4 year life.

BTW, my primary TV is a 1991 53" Sony I bought from a customer 2 years ago for $100.
It looks and plays better than my Brothers 1 year old $900 51" Toshiba, and still has original CRT's.
Look in most techs homes and in 95% of them you will see a Sony or Mit's BS, that is about 10 years old.

While I won't comment on these Apex models price point, for comparison most TV repair shops sell used bigscreens
like 10 year Sony's, in the 46" to 53" range, for around $600 all day long. If all you have is $500, maybe
getting a poor quality Apex that will last 2 to 4 years isn't a bad idea? Just go into it knowing what you are in for.
You can always put duct tape over the name plate when you friends come over, to avoid embarrassment.
Think Yugo here folks.

 

[Greg03]

Originally posted by: rootaxs
Not to start an argument or anything, but the comments by RobsTV and Madscientist got me wondering - is it possible that you both see this come back often for repairs is because it's also a top-seller in the value department?

I'm just thinking, on the rule of ratio and proportion - the more it sells, the more likely you'll see them back for repairs or returns.

Back home, Sony's are always being returned for repairs and problems - but that's also because it's the #1 brand sold at that time. When Aiwa came out, similar issues came about - but then it was also the time it outsold Sony on household electronics.

On the issue of price, i wouldn't necessarily put this under the "you get what you pay for" department. These things still retail for almost 2x that price - so a discount by Amazon is just a bonus.

YES. And then there's the problem of this is one or two saleguys. If you look hard enough on edmunds.com or another car website, you can find people trashing Honda or Toyota quality and they SWEAR that they sell Kia and its better than Mercedes. these people often have no idea about scientific methods and simply see X# of returns per unit and don't take into account the # sold, the *customer base* etc..

 

[Greg03]

I'm confused -- $499 - 100 rebate is $399 -- What's with the 449 price in thread?


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006FXGC.01.RB01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg




BTW, real price for me = $499.99 + 119 shipping + 50 tax (Love NYC) + - 100 rebate = roughly $569

 

[RobsTV]

Originally posted by: rootaxs
Not to start an argument or anything, but the comments by RobsTV and Madscientist got me wondering - is it possible that you both see this come back often for repairs is because it's also a top-seller in the value department?

I'm just thinking, on the rule of ratio and proportion - the more it sells, the more likely you'll see them back for repairs or returns.

Back home, Sony's are always being returned for repairs and problems - but that's also because it's the #1 brand sold at that time. When Aiwa came out, similar issues came about - but then it was also the time it outsold Sony on household electronics.

On the issue of price, i wouldn't necessarily put this under the "you get what you pay for" department. These things still retail for almost 2x that price - so a discount by Amazon is just a bonus.

That holds true only when priced about the same, if out of warranty.
However when priced differently, forget about it.
9 out of 10 people that purchase low end sets for little $$, throw them out instead of getting them fixed.
5 out of 10 people that purchase high end sets for big $$, have them repaired.
So in reality, the opposite of your thinking holds true here. We should (and do) see more high end sets than trash sets.
While upfront costs are less with the trash brands, parts cost can be the opposite.
You could spend more to fix identical problems on an Apex than on a Sony.

What would most do if:
They had a $250 TV that failed in 2 years, and cost $125 to repair? (50% of cost)
or
They had a $400 TV that failed in 5 years that cost $80 to repair? (20% of cost)
Then take into consideration that the 5 year old quality set still has a better picture than a new trash set, even after 5 years.
That is the reality of this business.
Yet many times consumers only look on the surface.
Some with the 5 year old TV will think, "why spend $80 when they can get a new TV for $250".
This is how the crap brands get away with selling such large quantities. Cheap Suckers born everyday.
You would not believe the amount of upset customers I see that bought junk that is now in need of repairs,
but expecting it to be as good as their last TV. The common words they all use are "But it's only 2 years old".

 

[Pothead]

Would you two Anti-Apex people please move on with your life? We have heard your spew of how the quality sucks. We aren't buying it because it's high quality, we are buying it for the price. It is inexpensive compared to other projection tvs. $500 is nothing and not a big gamble. Furthermore, most of us are buying extended warranties for this tv.

We have heard your campaign against Apex over and over, here and FW.

 

[RobsTV]

Originally posted by: Pothead
Would you two Anti-Apex people please move on with your life? We have heard your spew of how the quality sucks. We aren't buying it because it's high quality, we are buying it for the price. It is inexpensive compared to other projection tvs. $500 is nothing and not a big gamble. Furthermore, most of us are buying extended warranties for this tv.

We have heard your campaign against Apex over and over, here and FW.

You got it!
Done here.

Please do not ask me questions anymore as some have done, and as I have been kind enough to answer.
I will no longer be looking in Apex threads (unless it's disposable DVD players, which I like for the price).
No PM's either please.

Thanks, and have a great day!
Rob

 

[PlatinumGold]

edit deal,

amazon.com has this for $499.00 - $100.00 in rebates = $399.00


ROX.

 

[Maddscientist]

Not to start an argument or anything, but the comments by RobsTV and Madscientist got me wondering - is it possible that you both see this come back often for repairs is because it's also a top-seller in the value department?

Dont get me wrong im not saying that 9-10 apex products gets returned..... What I am saying is that on average from the returns I have gotten from apex products far outnumber the other brands I tend to sell. Do more apexes moving out the door possibly have a angle on these returns....probably to some extent. "But" Lets take Last years Christmas season for example ["Back when we still got comission" SOB!] In the month before christmas I sold around 265,000$* worth of gross product. Tvs, S.S. systems, computers , Assesories blah blah blah and so forth. Now out of that month I got 1 Toshibas Big screen, 6 Rca big screens, 1 Sony HD, 2 Panasonic and 14 Apex returns! THe numbers......


11/01/02
Units sold over 43" inch 28
12/01/02
Units sold under 43"inch 37

Apex 29%
Toshiba 14%
Sony 34%
Rca 17%
Misc 6%


On a sidenote as a few said above 500$ for a 43" Tv that will last a few years "hopefully" isnt a bad bargain. "But" since your buying via a E- Retailer if your tv does go bad sooner. You have to pay for shipping......to ship it to repair and back it would cost you upwards of 75-150$ and hopefully they fix it the first time. Or mabye you'll get lucky and wont have a problem so put a bullet in the chamber give it a good spin and go ahead and buy it if you must....but remember you have to pull the trigger when you sign the shipping slip


EDIT:::>Noticed Mitsubishii was completly neglected from my sales report reasearching that now since I know I sold a crap load of them last year but since we no longer really carry them at our store it seems it F*&^'ed up our sales print outs...odd when I get those number I will change the % ratios accordingly and sales numbers.

 

[chemist2003]

Just one question folks. I'm new so forgive me if I sound like a fool.

Is the screen flat?

And just to throw in my 2 cents in the debate:

I know it's an APEX, and I don't expect it to last more than a few years. And it doesn't have to. By 2007 HDTV will be standard broadcasting format. By then, I'm sure I'll want to upgrade. So for $500 I get a better TV than my current 27 incher. All I expect it to do is to last me until 2007 when I get my next upgrade. If it last longer than that, it is just bonus. Is that logical to everyone?

 

[canoner]

Originally posted by: Maddscientist

Not to start an argument or anything, but the comments by RobsTV and Madscientist got me wondering - is it possible that you both see this come back often for repairs is because it's also a top-seller in the value department?

Dont get me wrong im not saying that 9-10 apex products gets returned..... What I am saying is that on average from the returns I have gotten from apex products outnumber the other brands I tend to sell. Do more apexes moving out the door possibly have a angle on these returns....probably to some extent. "But" Lets take Last years Christmas season for example ["Back when we still got comission" SOB!] In the month before christmas I sold around 265,000$* worth of gross product. Tvs, S.S. systems, computers , Assesories blah blah blah and so forth. Now out of that month I got 1 Toshibas Big screen, 6 Rca big screens, 1 Sony HD, 2 Panasonic and 14 Apex 43inch and below returns! THe numbers......


11/01/02
Units sold over 43" inch 28
12/01/02
Units sold under 43"inch 37

Apex 29%
Toshiba 14%
Sony 34%
Rca 17%
Misc 6%


On a sidenote as a few said above 500$ for a 43" Tv that will last a few years "hopefully" isnt a bad bargain. "But" since your buying via a E- Retailer if your tv does go bad sooner. You have to pay for shipping......to ship it to repair and back it would cost you upwards of 75-150$ and hopefully they fix it the first time. Or mabye you'll get lucky and wont have a problem so put a bullet in the chamber give it a good spin and go ahead and buy it if you must....but remember you have to pull the trigger when you sign the shipping slip


EDIT:::>Noticed Mitsubishii was completly neglected from my sales report reasearching that now since I know I sold a crap load of them last year but since we no longer really carry them at our store it seems it F*&^'ed up our sales print outs...odd when I get those number I will change the % ratios accordingly and sales numbers.

Apex has in-home warranty so you don't have to shipped it or move it on your own to fix any problem. You can use platinum MC double that warranty for free. Or you can use Visa and buy 5-year extended warranty for $89.

To most people, they don't have the means to move a big screen. So it is not a choice for them to buy from local store, and return it if something happens. To them, they cannot return no matter where to buy. In that case, having Amazon delivered to their doors is the best option.

 

[canoner]

Originally posted by: chemist2003
Just one question folks. I'm new so forgive me if I sound like a fool.

Is the screen flat?

And just to throw in my 2 cents in the debate:

I know it's an APEX, and I don't expect it to last more than a few years. And it doesn't have to. By 2007 HDTV will be standard broadcasting format. By then, I'm sure I'll want to upgrade. So for $500 I get a better TV than my current 27 incher. All I expect it to do is to last me until 2007 when I get my next upgrade. If it last longer than that, it is just bonus. Is that logical to everyone?

Read my post on the warranty. you will be covered through 2007 if you follow my advice.

 

[canoner]

Originally posted by: RobsTV

Originally posted by: rootaxs
Not to start an argument or anything, but the comments by RobsTV and Madscientist got me wondering - is it possible that you both see this come back often for repairs is because it's also a top-seller in the value department?

I'm just thinking, on the rule of ratio and proportion - the more it sells, the more likely you'll see them back for repairs or returns.

Back home, Sony's are always being returned for repairs and problems - but that's also because it's the #1 brand sold at that time. When Aiwa came out, similar issues came about - but then it was also the time it outsold Sony on household electronics.

On the issue of price, i wouldn't necessarily put this under the "you get what you pay for" department. These things still retail for almost 2x that price - so a discount by Amazon is just a bonus.

That holds true only when priced about the same, if out of warranty.
However when priced differently, forget about it.
9 out of 10 people that purchase low end sets for little $$, throw them out instead of getting them fixed.
5 out of 10 people that purchase high end sets for big $$, have them repaired.
So in reality, the opposite of your thinking holds true here. We should (and do) see more high end sets than trash sets.
While upfront costs are less with the trash brands, parts cost can be the opposite.
You could spend more to fix identical problems on an Apex than on a Sony.

What would most do if:
They had a $250 TV that failed in 2 years, and cost $125 to repair? (50% of cost)
or
They had a $400 TV that failed in 5 years that cost $80 to repair? (20% of cost)
Then take into consideration that the 5 year old quality set still has a better picture than a new trash set, even after 5 years.
That is the reality of this business.
Yet many times consumers only look on the surface.
Some with the 5 year old TV will think, "why spend $80 when they can get a new TV for $250".
This is how the crap brands get away with selling such large quantities. Cheap Suckers born everyday.
You would not believe the amount of upset customers I see that bought junk that is now in need of repairs,
but expecting it to be as good as their last TV. The common words they all use are "But it's only 2 years old".

You forgot to mention a thing called warranty. If you are covered, then you send your tv for repair, no matter how cheap it is. The question should be: if it cost $0 to repair, will you repair? the answer is yes.

 

[VaG]

Originally posted by: Cybordolphin
If the public in general had the mentality above a 6th grader (and they don't), it would quickly become obvious that you really are not saving anything are you? In fact you are still paying the price of a big screen built "right"..... you are just paying it over a much longer time. Instead of paying $6,000.00 for a big screen that will last 10 years... you are paying $2500.00 for a big screen that will last 4-5 years. And somehow that is acceptable to most the buyers out there. They can live with that. Even though it is rather "silly". And guess what.... because of this.... everyone is happy. Including you.

Something an ole timer like yourself forgot to throw into the equation is that not everyone wants a 10+ year old dinosaur eyesore sitting in their living room. I would recommend you buy this apex so when your current TV dies at the 10 year mark you can place the apex on top of it.

 

[chemist2003]

Hey, now it's $999 + shipping.

Is it just me or did the price just more than doubled?

 

[BarneyFife]

I saw an Apex at Costco (51") and it was a POS. I think you guys should find a store where they are on display and take a look at them. All tvs aren't the same. $500 is a lot of money to blow when the picture quality sucks and it will be damn near impossible to return because of its weight. You could buy a nice jvc or sony 32inch for $500.

 

[Cfour]

How did you guys get the extended warranties? I ordered yesterday, but didn't see a warranty option?

Tony

 

[robisc]

Hey, now it's $999 + shipping.

Yeah I guess for those of use that waited around on this the price has now gone back up, oh well.

 

[Cybordolphin]

RobsTV...

I have almost lost all respect for you. (just kidding)

"Big screens should last 10+ years". That is not true at all. You may tell your customers that to encourage them to pop for the repair bill..... but there is not a big screen projection tv out there today that was built to last 10+ years. Certainly not one for less than $8,000.00 - 9,000.00, which I already addressed.

You know and I both know that you are running repairs on far more sets within the first 5 years of their lives, than 10 plus years after they were purchased. And yes... even Sony's. The warranties only push a set out to 5 years. And when was the last time you saw a warranty over 3 years (making them just about useless. You don't think the insurance carriers have done their homework?).

And no one sends in a big screen tv for repairs. Generally.

 

[chemist2003]

$999 is just stupid.

The 51"er is still $799. And the HDTV 43" can be had for $999. Hell, for $500 more, you can get the 65" HDTV one.

The coupon is good until 8/30/03

so I guess for those of us who missed it by like 5 minutes (it litterally changed while I was ordering it), there is a chance that Amazon might get more in before then. It has gone OOS once before like 8/12 or something like that and was back in stock 3 days later.

PS: It's funny as I still have the item for $499 - $100 rebate in my cart's "stuff to buy later" section, but I can't move it into the check out section. Oh well. Twiddling my thumb and waiting....

 

[jvmitche1]

While I hesitate to crap on any great deals, I think we all must balance the great deals with the long term consequences. The APEX items, while always a great price, and at times a great product (I have one of the original DVD players, the thing is amazing) need to be weighed in that light. Sometimes we end up selling out to save $25 or $50. Hey, I'm no Free-Tibet, Vegan, Hippie either -- I'm someone just like you who's starting to see the big picture.

The APEX items are manufactured in China, and presently the Chinese government is intentionally depressing their currency in order to make these items cheaper, causing trade deficits to skyrocket and businesses scramble to compete. While I know getting a great deal is part of American culture, so is having decent companies and businesses exist here in the US -- and while almost all electronics manufactuers are not based in the US, many are still based in countries with some semblance of fair competition in capitalism and democracy. While I know choosing something "Made in Taiwan" versus "Made in China" seems like a trivial difference (by the way, that's how bad it is, we have to choose between the lesser of two evils) -- choosing China really is bad news. Beijing's economy is forecast to grow 9-10% this year -- ask yourself how our economy is doing. In the meantime, more jobs and investments are headed there.

"Economists also concur that the tidal influx of goods with bargain-basement prices throws the U.S. economy out of kilter. China, they say, becomes a leading source of American "deflation" - a downward spiral of falling prices that depresses earnings, wages and hiring."

Read up and start opening your eyes and your friends eyes. The media is never going to push this. We all need to wake up and see these scary developments. Don't feel like you can't ever by another Chinese item, or get an awesome deal on a big screen tv, but just be aware and understand what's going on....

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/aug03/162995.asp
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030806/wl_nm/economy_china_dc_2
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20030730/bs_dowjones/200307292144001822

 

[Wag]

It's one thing to advise people to stay away from a potentially bad product, but this forum is mostly apolitical.

Your post belongs in the Politics and News forum, although I will give you an A+ for your compositional skills.

 

[chemist2003]

China is one of the very few growth engines that's still powering the world economy, and is a big reason why inflation has been kept in check. It would be foolish to wish the chinese economy ill. We are not in a recession because of Chinese TVs. You can thank the tech bubble for that. And many people has to rely on cheap chinese goods to make ends meet. I dread at the thought of my month expenses doubling because all my stuff are all "made in amierca".

As for the old slogan of "buy american", sorry I don't buy it. Similiar stories were told about Japanese cars (and still is) in the 80's and Korean electronics in the 90's. I mean, Oh God, how dare these chinese/korean/Japanese/mexicans accept wages less than $50 an hour + 401(k) + free health care + pension thrown in like their spoiled american peers? Come on. Get over it. We are in a global economy now. Learn some new tricks instead of the old commie/foreigner bashing.

 

[Postcountislife]

Good god, man. At $500, get two or three and just throw them out when they break. It'll still be far cheaper than buying a "good" set.