Just got my first pair of good IEMs (Westone W60). What else do I need?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I went to an audio shop today and tested out lots and lots of different IEMs. Finally settled on the Westone W60 (also had high hopes for the Dunu 2002 but the Westone won out).

Anyway, I'm going to be using this predominantly with my Samsung S5 and Asus ultrabook.

I don't think I'll really need an amp because it's only 25 ohms.

Should I think about getting a portable DAC? Any recommendations for one that's budget friendly?

Anything else?

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Wait, you just dropped a bucket of loot on top of the line aural pleasure and you want a "budget friendly" DAC?

Well your in luck. FiiO pretty much has a lock on the market and most of their offerings are sub $150.-. I can only assume based on your balla status that this would be considered chump change.

I personally like the lucid lab in the altoid tin, just becuase

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Wait, you just dropped a bucket of loot on top of the line aural pleasure and you want a "budget friendly" DAC?

Well your in luck. FiiO pretty much has a lock on the market and most of their offerings are sub $150.-. I can only assume based on your balla status that this would be considered chump change.

I personally like the lucid lab in the altoid tin, just becuase

Uh, that's an amplifier, not a DAC. I don't think my pair of IEMs will require an amp since they're only 25 ohms.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Actually having low impedance (mismatch with the output impedance of your device and it'll mess up your frequency response, can be pretty drastic too) and high sensitivity, proper amplification might be more important than other headphones. Its not just about putting out more power but good control of the power you do output.

That being said, I think most devices aren't too bad so its not likely a need. The iPhone I believe has around ~1ohm output impedance for instance. But it can actually provide a meaningful upgrade in sound quality,

Really that's all moot though, as using an external DAC will require an analog section so you'll need an amp (or rather you'll be looking for DAC/amps, not just DACs).

As for recommendations, I haven't kept up on things much beyond knowing that there's a lot of options these days, everything from like sub $50 DAC/amp cables off eBay to several thousand dollar ones. Kinda depends on your needs too. My best recommendation would be to check out the Westone W60 thread(s) on Head-Fi and see what others are using or say would be a good fit. That and the portable source section.

 

[ork1958]

If you're listening to lossless files, I would highly recommend a mobile dac, while normal files like 256 kbit/s AAC or 320 kbit/s MP3 would only throw up bits that you can hear out.
Since the impedance is so low, I don't think you would need an amp, even my 32 ohm Sony XBA-N1AP do fine on my aged Z1 Compact (bigger battery = more oomph).
I think I would need a DAC myself if I had lossless 24 bit audio files on my telephone, but I dont, so it doesn't matter for me (although its a shame for my IEMs).
Hope my part was somewhat helpful

Greetings ork1958

EDIT: I've just read a review for your IEMs aaand.... (let's say I thought my IEMs were expensive... I was WRONG)
You surely have to get a decent DAC and a library full of lossless files, otherwise you may have bought the wrong IEMs

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

If you're listening to lossless files, I would highly recommend a mobile dac, while normal files like 256 kbit/s AAC or 320 kbit/s MP3 would only throw up bits that you can hear out.
Since the impedance is so low, I don't think you would need an amp, even my 32 ohm Sony XBA-N1AP do fine on my aged Z1 Compact (bigger battery = more oomph).
I think I would need a DAC myself if I had lossless 24 bit audio files on my telephone, but I dont, so it doesn't matter for me (although its a shame for my IEMs).
Hope my part was somewhat helpful

Greetings ork1958

EDIT: I've just read a review for your IEMs aaand.... (let's say I thought my IEMs were expensive... I was WRONG)
You surely have to get a decent DAC and a library full of lossless files, otherwise you may have bought the wrong IEMs

Thanks. The thing is that I hear a clear difference playing the same FLAC (or even MP3) files on my Samsung S5 compared to playing on my laptop, so I figure that yes, a portable DAC / Amp is probably in order. The sound coming from the S5 isn't bad, but like you said, since I have a killer set of IEMs I want to actually take full advantage of them.

The W60s are normally $1000 but I got them used for $650. Last pair of headphones I will ever get, if I don't manage to lose or break them. Here in Tokyo there is an excellent shop called e-earphones that lets you try out literally hundreds of different headphones. After reading reviews I was dead set on the Dunu DN-3001 but after spending, oh, 8 hours listening to fifty or so IEMs I went with the W60s, which luckily they had a secondhand one in stock. I'm glad I tried so many out in person - there are so many expensive IEMs ($400+) out there that IMO are *unlistenable* because the treble is so bright and fatiguing.

I don't remember much about the Sony XBA-N1AP, but the XBA-N3APs are a really fun and delightful pair of IEMs.

 

[ork1958]

Thanks. The thing is that I hear a clear difference playing the same FLAC (or even MP3) files on my Samsung S5 compared to playing on my laptop, so I figure that yes, a portable DAC / Amp is probably in order. The sound coming from the S5 isn't bad, but like you said, since I have a killer set of IEMs I want to actually take full advantage of them.

The W60s are normally $1000 but I got them used for $650. Last pair of headphones I will ever get, if I don't manage to lose or break them. Here in Tokyo there is an excellent shop called e-earphones that lets you try out literally hundreds of different headphones. After reading reviews I was dead set on the Dunu DN-3001 but after spending, oh, 8 hours listening to fifty or so IEMs I went with the W60s, which luckily they had a secondhand one in stock. I'm glad I tried so many out in person - there are so many expensive IEMs ($400+) out there that IMO are *unlistenable* because the treble is so bright and fatiguing.

I don't remember much about the Sony XBA-N1AP, but the XBA-N3APs are a really fun and delightful pair of IEMs.

Good to hear that you music library is prepared
I don't have many lossless files sadly and I think that my IEM's are kinda forgiving in comparison to yours, considering the fact that they are a hybrid type...
I've heard that the N3AP have slightly less bass and somewhat more detailed highs compared to the N1AP, but since I mainly listen to DnB and I like the soundstage applied to other genres, I'm totally happy with my purchase (I also like the thought that they are really good for their price, according to some real audiophiles at least c: )
Btw sorry for not really answering your question, I don't really have any experience regarding DACs, although I notice the difference between my old phone and a PC supporting a higher bitrate
Also I may have to admit that I have found your old thread when you still searched for headphones and I was about to recommend you my N1APs, but the thread was too old so I searched for a new one where I could share my experience, but then I saw this thread of yours and then did want to contribute anyway.... Ah well, more knowledge doesn't hurt ^^

Greetings ork1958

 

[rstrohkirch]

Fii0 x3 gen 2 on the cheap side

Fii0 x5 gen 3 for a bit more

If you like to stream new music then your S5, Tidal premium lossless account, UAPP app and some random $50-200 DAC/AMP combo

 

[alcoholbob]

OP, did you buy any chance listen to the Shure SE846 and compare them to the W60s?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

OP, did you buy any chance listen to the Shure SE846 and compare them to the W60s?

Sure did. This all started when my friend went to get a new pair of headphones. He was initially convinced through reviews that he was going to get the Shure 846s, but after extensive listening he realised that they're too bright and caused him ear fatigue.

My friend didn't really have any backup choices after the Shures, and after some random listening of other IEMs he came to the conclusion that the W60s were more enjoyable.

I went to the same store on a different day, alone, figuring I would be buying the Dunu DN-3001s. I didn't even know what the W60s or 846s *were* at the time and listened to a ton of different headphones before my friend texted me and told me simply to try the Westone W60 and 846 and "tell me what you think." I was instantly blown away by the W60s and thought that the 846s were too bright in comparison and was causing ear fatigue. Female vocals hurt. I've used IEMs that were too bright in the past, and it's the single worst thing ever because you just have to stop listening. I'd rather have a muddier set of headphones than one that causes ear fatigue from being too sparkly.

In addition, the W60s have a low profile and fit flush into the ear, meaning sleeping with your head against a pillow feels wonderful. After I told him this he let me know that his findings had been the same.

All the headphones tested were likely already broken in and I made sure to put on properly sealing earpieces for each test.

By comparison, the Dunu DN-3001 was missing clarity in the mids and they're huge and blocky...

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[alcoholbob]

Interesting take. Not trying to invalidate your opinion, but it seems the consensus is generally leaning towards the 846 over the W60 at headfi and sbaf, and the W80s above both. Most people consider the 846 to be bassy and midforward.

You might be sensitive to the extra 2db or so bump around 5k.

SE846

W60

Did you listen to any electrostatics? Like the KSE1500 or Stax SR-002 and have any opinion on those?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Interesting take. Not trying to invalidate your opinion, but it seems the consensus is generally leaning towards the 846 over the W60 at headfi and sbaf, and the W80s above both. Most people consider the 846 to be bassy and midforward.

You might be sensitive to the extra 2db or so bump around 5k.

SE846

W60

Did you listen to any electrostatics? Like the KSE1500 or Stax SR-002 and have any opinion on those?

It's possible that my friend and I are just both sensitive to that frequency range, but I do have to say though that I was able to do something that the majority of people on forums are probably unable to do: test the two headphones side by side.

After I played a certain portion of a song on the first pair of IEMs I literally sidestepped over and in the next few seconds played the same portion of the song on the second pair of IEMs for comparison, and all in the same listening environment and with the same ear conditions and from the same device.

In the end, both my friend and I felt that we dodged a (very expensive) bullet by being able to test the two headphones side by side. But like you said, we might just have different ears. When purchasing something so expensive, I would recommend actually trying them out yourself, preferably side by side. I wrote extensive notes on all the headphones I tried (and then accidentally deleted them after a phone wipe) and there were a couple other $500+ IEMs that were so sparkly they were unlistenable to me. They were from brands that I had previously never heard of, though.

I didn't know what electrostatic headphones were until I just looked them up, haha. No, I didn't try any over the ear headphones as I travel a lot and don't have even a remote desire to pack something of that size.

But I'm pretty sure the sound would be way different. Perhaps not better, just different. This weekend I sat and listened to a stupid expensive speaker setup of a friend's audiophile uncle (with a recliner placed right in the sweet spot). I don't know the model of speakers, but I felt like I was there, with the actual band playing in front of me. I actually didn't enjoy it that much because while the audio fidelity was insane, it was too directional and open and I prefer the more intimate "inside my head" sound of IEMs. To compare the more airy sound of open headphones or speakers to the intimate sound of IEMs is a bit too apples-to-oranges IMO.

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[alcoholbob]

I think reasons people general cite Shures is the isolation appears superior to the Westone. I've never heard the W60s, but I've heard the W50, W40, and they both let in quite a bit of outside sound, whereas Shures are traditionally completely acoustically dead due to the stock tips being a bit larger (and longer).

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

I think reasons people general cite Shures is the isolation appears superior to the Westone. I've never heard the W60s, but I've heard the W50, W40, and they both let in quite a bit of outside sound, whereas Shures are traditionally completely acoustically dead due to the stock tips being a bit larger (and longer).

Ah, I see. I think this is a matter of fit then. The Westone W60 actually comes with like 10 different eartips. Five are silicone, five are foam / Comply. I didn't really make a conscientious effort to judge acoustic sealing - if it was obviously too loose I took out the eartip and put in a bigger one, but that was the extent of it. So for every test I did the fit was at least "good." However, all the tips used were silicone ones as the shop only had these on their IEMs, probably for hygienic reasons.

However, I would expect a tighter fitting eartip to actually result in *more* sparkle on the Shures, right?

And of course there's the matter of comfort. At least for me, silicone is vastly more comfortable for long periods of listening than foam, so for day-to-day use I think being happy with the sound of your IEMs with eartips that are more comfortable, even if they don't seal as well, is reasonable.

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[JAG87]

Please don't sleep with your w60, Westone iems are built so poorly that they will break on you if you use them like that. The mmcx connector is especially crappy on them. I know because I have them and they broke on me. Also I agree with you that the w60 is much better sounding then the 846. I actually find the latter really bad for the price tag. The w80 sounds a bit worse to me than the w60, not sure why.

They all take a big backseat to the UERR, which in that 1k price range is by far the best sounding iem I've heard. Tbh it's actually top 3 for me at any price range, I've heard all models of UE, westone, jhaudio, fitear, and random one offs like ie800, oriolus, and so on. Haven't heard the kse1500, so can't comment on that.

At any size/portability, stax sr009 is still the best personal listening system I've heard to date.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Please don't sleep with your w60, Westone iems are built so poorly that they will break on you if you use them like that. The mmcx connector is especially crappy on them. I know because I have them and they broke on me. Also I agree with you that the w60 is much better sounding then the 846. I actually find the latter really bad for the price tag. The w80 sounds a bit worse to me than the w60, not sure why.

They all take a big backseat to the UERR, which in that 1k price range is by far the best sounding iem I've heard. Tbh it's actually top 3 for me at any price range, I've heard all models of UE, westone, jhaudio, fitear, and random one offs like ie800, oriolus, and so on. Haven't heard the kse1500, so can't comment on that.

At any size/portability, stax sr009 is still the best personal listening system I've heard to date.

How did you break your Westones? And was it just completely hundreds of dollars down the drain?

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[JAG87]

How did you break your Westones? And was it just completely hundreds of dollars down the drain?

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One side the bass drivers went out, but it was due to bad wiring in the mmcx, not dead drivers. If you fiddled it would come back for a few seconds. Didn't even put them under stress or anything, just broke in my wife's pocket or purse. Westone refused service too since I didn't have an original invoice, I bought them sealed bnib from a first owner. So I just got them fixed and reshelled into customs to avoid the loss.

I'm just giving you the heads up, I'm just one of many not pleased with the crap build quality of Westone's flagship IEM.

 

[alcoholbob]

If you don't care about isolation, then the best IEMs IMO are the Audeze iSine 20. It's basically a 30mm planar magnetic headphone miniaturized into an earpiece. For $549 it's a steal, and is way beyond the performance of your typical $1k+ closed balanced armature IEM. It was pretty competitive with the KSE1500 IMO at 1/5 the price, although arguably better because you get a full sized headphone style soundstage.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

One side the bass drivers went out, but it was due to bad wiring in the mmcx, not dead drivers. If you fiddled it would come back for a few seconds. Didn't even put them under stress or anything, just broke in my wife's pocket or purse. Westone refused service too since I didn't have an original invoice, I bought them sealed bnib from a first owner. So I just got them fixed and reshelled into customs to avoid the loss.

I'm just giving you the heads up, I'm just one of many not pleased with the crap build quality of Westone's flagship IEM.

How much did it cost to get fixed, and where did you get it fixed?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

If you don't care about isolation, then the best IEMs IMO are the Audeze iSine 20. It's basically a 30mm planar magnetic headphone miniaturized into an earpiece. For $549 it's a steal, and is way beyond the performance of your typical $1k+ closed balanced armature IEM. It was pretty competitive with the KSE1500 IMO at 1/5 the price, although arguably better because you get a full sized headphone style soundstage.

I've always been a bit confused on how a single driver could ever hope to match the audio fidelity of multiple drivers.

A single driver, no matter the method in which it is being driven, would by definition have to cope with producing multiple frequencies at once, like a bass frequency + vocal frequency + cymbals, for example, at X point in time. It just seems to me that this would at least cause some loss of fidelity. A high end IEM with multiple BA drivers would have each driver tuned to accurately producing sound from a specific frequency band, and thus would inherently produce better audio, no?

 

[alcoholbob]

in theory multiple drivers is good, but each driver will have some dispersion or crossover discontinuity with the next driver that wont make it sound as well intregrated as a single driver system.

It's also a matter of driver quality. Single driver dyanamics use materials that in real honesty nobody should be using for a full range driver. Due to driver resonances I dont see how a full range dynamic driver can compete with BA in distortion or waterfall measurements unless you go with beryllium or CVD diamond. The issue is iems is still considered a "not serious/high margin toy product" and the engineering/materials side of IEMs isnt comparable to speakers or headphones in the dynamic driver iem market.

 

[Jodiuh]

Anything else?

These:

http://www.earphonesolutions.com/sh...s-for-shure-westone-klipsch-and-etymotic.html

For reference, the red or black TRUE FIT foam tips included in the Westone kit fit me and I use medium Shure Olives. I don't feel like they isolate as well, but they do sound better IMO and are more comfy.

I have yet to try Complys.

 

[MrSquished]

I tried the Dunu 2002's and they are blocky but they fit me fine. I just found them inferior to the Dunu 2000J's.

Carrying an extra DAC or amp is annoying. I've done it. Get a better phone. The LG V20 has four DACs and ample output. Think about it.