Just started working on cars....

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Feb 25, 2011
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Interesting. Is there any way for me to get a general glimpse or indication of if the timing belt actually needs to get replaced within a certain time frame? Sorry, but going by maintenance books is bullshit, they were made for the specific reason to make money. I've seen plenty of people that have driven 300k miles without needing a replacement timing belt. Thats not to say they aren't on the brink of it snapping or anything, but the point being that declaring it's time to replace just because an odometer hit 100k isn't necessarily a valid argument.

Exact process will depend on the engine design. There are strobe-light setups that can be used to check. If you can get at the belt to do a visual inspection, that can help. Or if it gets a certain kind of noisy, but as an amateur, I've always had trouble picking out the bad noises from the good noises.

A 300k timing belt is, in all likelihood, a timing chain, not a belt. Although I suppose you could get that kind of mileage out of a belt if you drive really, really gently and put on 75k miles a year or so. But even sitting still, the rubber eventually rots.

If you have trouble understanding then you don't understand the logic of an investment. Let me make it more obvious - would you do a $3,000 repair on a car that is worth $2,000? I would hope not, since it makes no sense. You're piling on costs of maintenance for something that is worth less than simply getting a new vehicle. So in the case of this timing belt, if I were to replace the belt my car would be worth ~$5,000.. If i were to not replace the timing belt, guess what it would still be worth? $5,000. It simply boils down to return on investment, and as your car gets older and older maintenance costs will be more and more expensive, while you value of your vehicle continues to decline.

Well, first it was $775, then $2k, now $3k. Yes, a $3k repair on a $2k car would be silly, but that's engine or transmission replacement territory, which is usually when a car is considered totaled anyway. A $500 repair on a $5k car generally isn't contraindicated, unless you intend to sell it fairly soon. If so, you're right that you won't get that money back. But you won't get to keep it all, either - unless you find an absolute sucker for a buyer, a car that wasn't taken care of isn't worth nearly as much on the used market as a car that has been well-maintained. Any decent mechanic doing a pre-sale inspection will spot (most of) the deferred repairs, and the buyer will adjust their offer accordingly.

If you don't intend to get rid of the car, the best value from a total-cost-per-mile-driven standpoint is usually obtained when you drive a car "into the ground" - 200k or more. 300k now, maybe. Or 500k. But you have to sink some money into maintenance to get there. Yes, maintenance costs do go up as the car ages and you hit certain intervals (particularly the 100k or 120k services) but once they're done, you're good for another 100 or 120k miles, and it's more than outweighed by not having a car payment, lower registration and insurance premiums, etc.

Also, humans are irrational. Apart from the obvious sunk cost traps that occur with cars, there's a "devil you know" component here. A person generally places a value on their own vehicle that's significantly higher than KBB, because they know what's wrong with it and know what's likely to fail next, if anything, which gives them a sense of security. When your $2k beater drops its tranny into a pothole, if you buy some other $2k beater, you're gambling that it won't do the same thing next month. Which is why when they DO get the $3k repair bill for the $2k car, most people who aren't completely strapped for cash will buy a newer, more expensive car - because they perceive it as only equally reliable to their old car, and not another $2k beater that's an unknown quantity. So realistically it's a choice between a $3k repair for a $2k car vs. a $6-10k car.†

†Unless, like I said, you're just completely broke. In which case, good luck and god bless. But now you're dealing with a situation where a new $500 car every 6-12 months and NO maintenance is often the cheapest option that works within cash flow. And yeah, people do that too.

And if we're talking about a $2k car that has some sentimental value, some people actually will spend the $3k on the repair. e.g.:

Dammit, son, you were conceived AND delivered in that back seat, and you're learning to drive in it come hell or high water! Now help me mix this Bondo!

IMO, though, regular maintenance is basically a form of insurance. If you spend the money now, you're less likely to have a catastrophic failure later.

Cars will put up with a lot of abuse, up to a point: you can drive on tires until the cord is showing, go 12k miles between oil changes, let the tabs of your brake pads carve a furrow into your rotors, never change fluids, never replace something that isn't completely broken, and otherwise save a lot of money in the short term by not putting a single penny into your car that isn't absolutely necessary to keep it running and driving. But then you're more likely - not guaranteed, but more likely - to have a major problem at the least opportune moment, and can get hurt in the process. Gamble if you want, but try not to be driving anywhere near me when your wheel falls off because you didn't get that "wub-wub-wub" sound fixed.

Deferring maintenance in this fashion may also result in more costly repairs when you do finally fix things, as regular replacement of some stuff (e.g. engine oil) will usually help other more expensive parts (e.g. engines) last longer.

tl;dr - take care of your shiznit and it will take care of you.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Also, this. Cars are for fun, reliable transportation, or some combination of the two. They are not investments.

Respectively disagree here - but everyone has their differing opinions, I'm just someone that sees everything in a financial way, it's no coincidence that I also happen to work in finance. I see my vehicle as a means to get to and from work (which employs me and pays a salary). My question in life is always going to be what vehicle can I purchase that will transport me from location A to location B for the minimal number of dollars over the course of ~10 years.

To each there own though, just difference of opinions /beer.
 
Feb 25, 2011
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Respectively disagree here - but everyone has their differing opinions, I'm just someone that sees everything in a financial way, it's no coincidence that I also happen to work in finance. I see my vehicle as a means to get to and from work (which employs me and pays a salary). My question in life is always going to be what vehicle can I purchase that will transport me from location A to location B for the minimal number of dollars over the course of ~10 years.

To each there own though, just difference of opinions /beer.

Cars don't commit seppuku after 10 years. It's not the '80s. Run the numbers for 20 years or 300k miles.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
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A lot of engines are Interference Fit, meaning the Valves protrude down into the cylinder space occupied by the piston. More efficient engine, but if the Timing Belt breaks the valves will hit the piston and bend, may even damage the piston and cylinder wall. So you pay the $1,000 to do the change before you end up paying about $4,000 to swap in a whole new engine.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
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Respectively disagree here - but everyone has their differing opinions, I'm just someone that sees everything in a financial way, it's no coincidence that I also happen to work in finance. I see my vehicle as a means to get to and from work (which employs me and pays a salary). My question in life is always going to be what vehicle can I purchase that will transport me from location A to location B for the minimal number of dollars over the course of ~10 years.

To each there own though, just difference of opinions /beer.

Okay, that's fine -- but you're basically saying you need reliable transportation to get to work so you can take home a salary if you're foregoing maintenance because it's financially "not worth it" just looking at actual raw numbers at one point in time, you'll be driving a potentially unreliable vehicle that could break and leave you stranded with no way to get to work -- barring much more expensive fixes or a new vehicle, like I said in the last post.

Basically I think you might find that the most financially prudent strategy is buying a known good car and keeping it on the road for a long time by doing all maintenance, even when the value drops "too low." There is no saving money by avoiding maintenance.
 
Reactions: Meghan54
Nov 8, 2012
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Word of advice: Sooner or later (around 75K or so) your Acura will require a new timing belt. It is an item, which if not replaced when the manual says to do, could on a lot of cars, cause major engine damage when it breaks. And on these type of engines, it is very difficult and critical to get the belt properly timed (lots of marks to line up and some special tools are required) ... So you may you to have a pro handle this job when it is time for it.
Will probably be a few hundred bucks. But if it snaps, it'll destroy the engine, so.... do it. Any Honda product is worth fixing for at least 200k.

Timing belts can snap with no warning and destroy stuff. That's why you replace them on a regular schedule. Timing chains tend to get loose as the links wear, and give you plenty of warning as the timing gets increasingly out spec and starts throwing codes. The chains are noisier and last longer, but are also more expensive and harder to replace. They're both commonly used. Tradeoffs.

Serpentine belts are a different story. They're outside the engine, even less expensive, are much easier to replace, and generally speaking won't destroy the engine when they snap (unless they hit something wrong/unlucky when they're unwinding or you keep trying to drive the thing w/o the water pump working and end up cooking the motor.)

sooo news flash for me (as well as you guys, I guess?).... Upon further research it seems that absolutely no Acura TSX's have a timing belt? From my research it has a timing chain - in which case I'm guessing the main maintenance I need to look forward to is standard items (Changing oil, brake pads, flushing fluids). Is that correct?

All I can say is Yahoo! I just looked up my KBB at about $3k, I would hate any maintenance that costs over $800.
 
Feb 25, 2011
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sooo news flash for me (as well as you guys, I guess?).... Upon further research it seems that absolutely no Acura TSX's have a timing belt?

Since you didn't say what kind of Acura you had, we have no way of knowing. Hence my rather long winded answer handling both cases. But yeah, the 2.4L I4 engine in the TSX (2004-2014) uses a chain, whereas the engine in my Acura TL uses a belt.

From my research it has a timing chain - in which case I'm guessing the main maintenance I need to look forward to is standard items (Changing oil, brake pads, flushing fluids). Is that correct?

Well, and accessory belts, brake rotors, brake lines*, pumps, alternators, worn out bushings, sway bar links, spark plugs, and all the other things that eventually wear out at different times. Yes. Depending on how long you keep it.

*I swear. Not something you normally think about. But I was getting an oil change this very morning and owner takes a car in. The customer leaves, and the owner calls the mechanic who's going to work on it into the office. He says, "Their rear brake line exploded. Better replace all four." Exploded? So yeah. That's definitely something I'll be learning to inspect myself.

All I can say is Yahoo! I just looked up my KBB at about $3k, I would hate any maintenance that costs over $800.

$800 is still cheaper than a new car, isn't it?

We just sunk $2k into my housemate's '08 TSX. Mostly for cosmetic crap, too. (Repainted the hood, a bunch of PDR work, buffing, new rims, etc.) She wants her stuff shiny and pretty, and was threatening to buy a Lexus. This was the cheaper option.

One way or the other, you will pay for transportation.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Since you didn't say what kind of Acura you had, we have no way of knowing. Hence my rather long winded answer handling both cases. But yeah, the 2.4L I4 engine in the TSX (2004-2014) uses a chain, whereas the engine in my Acura TL uses a belt.



Well, and accessory belts, brake rotors, brake lines*, pumps, alternators, worn out bushings, sway bar links, spark plugs, and all the other things that eventually wear out at different times. Yes. Depending on how long you keep it.

*I swear. Not something you normally think about. But I was getting an oil change this very morning and owner takes a car in. The customer leaves, and the owner calls the mechanic who's going to work on it into the office. He says, "Their rear brake line exploded. Better replace all four." Exploded? So yeah. That's definitely something I'll be learning to inspect myself.



$800 is still cheaper than a new car, isn't it?

We just sunk $2k into my housemate's '08 TSX. Mostly for cosmetic crap, too. (Repainted the hood, a bunch of PDR work, buffing, new rims, etc.) She wants her stuff shiny and pretty, and was threatening to buy a Lexus. This was the cheaper option.

One way or the other, you will pay for transportation.

Pretty much, I just want to pay the least amount as possible while sustaining the vehicle and preventing further damage from not maintaining it

That said, what am I missing? I am ~115k miles into the vehicle, I've replaced the filters (A/C and engine), the PS Pumps and fluid - Last time I took it to a dealership their inspection didn't have much to say. Should I be expecting something else around this mileage? I find it a bit odd that I have yet to do any maintenance on anything break related.
 
Feb 25, 2011
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Pretty much, I just want to pay the least amount as possible while sustaining the vehicle and preventing further damage from not maintaining it

That said, what am I missing? I am ~115k miles into the vehicle, I've replaced the filters (A/C and engine), the PS Pumps and fluid - Last time I took it to a dealership their inspection didn't have much to say. Should I be expecting something else around this mileage? I find it a bit odd that I have yet to do any maintenance on anything break related.

Dealership "inspections" will usually find things that are on the scheduled maintenance list. Not all of it is likely necessary.

If you didn't do your spark plugs at around 100k, it's probably time. (100k is typical.)

If you drive gently, your brakes will last a long time. But 115k without replacing pads or doing a bleed or fluid replacement would be new to me.
 

leper84

Senior member
Dec 29, 2011
989
29
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Interesting. Is there any way for me to get a general glimpse or indication of if the timing belt actually needs to get replaced within a certain time frame? Sorry, but going by maintenance books is bullshit, they were made for the specific reason to make money. I've seen plenty of people that have driven 300k miles without needing a replacement timing belt. Thats not to say they aren't on the brink of it snapping or anything, but the point being that declaring it's time to replace just because an odometer hit 100k isn't necessarily a valid argument.

I've seen the opposite of maintenance books. The game for manufacturers is getting cost of ownership down for people who buy new cars. They want you to do the least possible until either the warranty expires or you trade in. Its more of they don't give a damn if the maintenance schedule they recommend causes problems after 100k because the warranty is expired and the people who own cars after 100k aren't buying new ones.

I've seen plenty of people go 130k on a 105k Honda timing belt and shear the teeth off at the crank sprocket. I'd personally do the belt on time.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
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Some cars are more accessible than others. For example, generally, once you work on one Toyota, you know the design elements in all of their vehicles, although the smaller vehicles will be more cramped and tedious to work on. For a Toyota, having 10, 12, and 14mm fastener removing wrenches and sockets can take care of most routine maintenence tasks like oil change, battery change, and brake change.

Fun fact is that a Toyota Corolla cabin air filter costs 2-3 dollars from Ebay and the charge to replace one is about $80.
 

JCH13

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2010
4,981
66
91
Respectively disagree here - but everyone has their differing opinions, I'm just someone that sees everything in a financial way, it's no coincidence that I also happen to work in finance. I see my vehicle as a means to get to and from work (which employs me and pays a salary). My question in life is always going to be what vehicle can I purchase that will transport me from location A to location B for the minimal number of dollars over the course of ~10 years.

To each there own though, just difference of opinions /beer.

sooo news flash for me (as well as you guys, I guess?).... Upon further research it seems that absolutely no Acura TSX's have a timing belt? From my research it has a timing chain - in which case I'm guessing the main maintenance I need to look forward to is standard items (Changing oil, brake pads, flushing fluids). Is that correct?

All I can say is Yahoo! I just looked up my KBB at about $3k, I would hate any maintenance that costs over $800.

You've not mentioned depreciation yet Mr. Finance! Where is your break point for depreciation vs repairs? Generally speaking vehicles will lose much more value through deprecation than repairs, even over protracted periods of time. Say you got a $3k repair for your TSX, what then? Trade it in on a new TSX and take a $4,600 hit the next year in depreciation?

Also, ROFL about 300k miles on a single timing belt. Pics or it didn't happen.

See:
http://www.sdp-si.com/PDFS/Technical-Section-Timing.pdf

Belts are, in general, rated to yield a minimum of 3000 hours of useful life if all instructions are properly followed.

My main vehicles lifetime average speed is about 45mph, so at best I would expect 135k miles out of a timing belt. That's before a factor of safety and any compromises made in belt layout that would shorten life such as smaller-than-ideal pulley diameters and reverse bending are considered. Contact with oil vapor, fuel vapor, elevated temperatures, and dust also shorten belt life and are abundant in engine bays.

The parent auto company who sets the change interval doesn't see a dime from those dealer repairs. They maybe sell a $10-40 belt for the service, but more than likely that belt is bought directly from the OEM or a 3rd party manufacturer. The belt change interval is set by a team of engineers who carefully weighs the cost of the repair with the cost and likelihood of failure. Stop thinking car makers are big bad boogeymen out to get you.
 

JCH13

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2010
4,981
66
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Little bit of a self-bragging thread, but also just a discussion.

For the longest time in life I always figured cars weren't my business and never touched anything with them. I was probably like a typical computer scrub that felt like if you opened the computer case or a car there are gerbils inside running on spin-wheels and making shit happen for all I knew. This past week I did a lot of self-research and did my first semi-major fix of changing out the power steering pump, replacing the serpentine belt, and flushing the fluid with it as well. All in all, it really was pretty easy so I doubt I did anything that amazing, but I still felt accomplished knowing that the dealership wanted ~$850 for the part and ~$300+ for putting it in. Their quote didn't even include flushing the fluid and replacing the serpentine belt. I spent ~$200 on the new filter and $30 on some power steering fluid and gasket replacements, and ~$30 on the serpentine belt replacement. I will say that I have had to buy a decent number of tools required for these jobs, but hopefully they are worth it overall.

I've worked my way up to this a bit, starting with things like changing the engine and A/C filter and a simple oil/filter change. Hopefully next I'll have the courage to do brake related items, I have yet to touch much else so far since my Acura is holding itself steady now for quite some time.

What say other ATOTers? Do you diagnose and do your own car work and maintenance? Or do you pay a dealership $150 to change a filter? That's ultimately what got me to switch, was dealerships wanting $200 to change the power steering fluid, and $100+ to change the A/C Filter.

Moved ftom OT.
admin allisolm

I do a majority of work on the four cars my wife and I own. I've done everything from oil changes to engine swaps. It's not difficult work if you plan well and know a few tricks.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
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While it is somewhat true that engineers decide on when things should be replaced, they have no knowledge of the parts cost or labor cost to replace them. Also a lot of time, it is the bean counters that say that part X should only last a certain amount of mileage. Sometimes they go longer, sometimes they fail just after.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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You've not mentioned depreciation yet Mr. Finance! Where is your break point for depreciation vs repairs? Generally speaking vehicles will lose much more value through deprecation than repairs, even over protracted periods of time. Say you got a $3k repair for your TSX, what then? Trade it in on a new TSX and take a $4,600 hit the next year in depreciation?

Also, ROFL about 300k miles on a single timing belt. Pics or it didn't happen.

<snip>

As stated in the 2nd post from me you quoted - From what I understand there is not a timing belt on any of the Acura TSX's - so I shouldn't have to worry since we're talking a chain, not a belt. Correct me if I'm wrong there ?

And believe me, depreciation is my #1 factor when it comes to replacing a vehicle. First and foremost, because I never buy new vehicles. There is little to no-point, especially because manufacturers have smartened up and offer certified pre-owned vehicles that come with warranties. Previously that was an advantage that only came with new vehicles. So yes, if I had a $3k repair on my Acura I would be looking in the market for a 2013-2016ish used replacement

*(not necessarily a replacement TSX, times have changed and with kiddo #1 now in town I'm likely to opt for an SUV)
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,714
164
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I did a lot of work before kids. Recently I've had newer cars that have required less work. Will probably pick it back up when my sons get a bit older and become interested in helping.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
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Be advised, a lot has changed about how things are done now. Good idea to get the factory service manual and also read up in Motor Magazine about technology and service methods keep changing. Only way to stay somewhat up to date.
 

JCH13

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2010
4,981
66
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As stated in the 2nd post from me you quoted - From what I understand there is not a timing belt on any of the Acura TSX's - so I shouldn't have to worry since we're talking a chain, not a belt. Correct me if I'm wrong there ?

And believe me, depreciation is my #1 factor when it comes to replacing a vehicle. First and foremost, because I never buy new vehicles. There is little to no-point, especially because manufacturers have smartened up and offer certified pre-owned vehicles that come with warranties. Previously that was an advantage that only came with new vehicles. So yes, if I had a $3k repair on my Acura I would be looking in the market for a 2013-2016ish used replacement

*(not necessarily a replacement TSX, times have changed and with kiddo #1 now in town I'm likely to opt for an SUV)

Your original statement was made without reference to a particular car model. I missed the reference to timing chain in the mountain of text that followed in response.

Still, new cars will depreciate more. Often this value overwhelms repair costs, even going used. 4-5 years out you're still losing $2k/year. So if your annual repair costs are less than $2k, really $2,500 since used cars will have some repair cost, you'd still be better off keeping the beater going.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Your original statement was made without reference to a particular car model. I missed the reference to timing chain in the mountain of text that followed in response.

Still, new cars will depreciate more. Often this value overwhelms repair costs, even going used. 4-5 years out you're still losing $2k/year. So if your annual repair costs are less than $2k, really $2,500 since used cars will have some repair cost, you'd still be better off keeping the beater going.

Entirely depends, either way another statistic you aren't factoring in is risk - below is what I would gather. It requires a fine balance of all the below factors to determine if it's worth repairing or not. Below are my general thoughts when I'm deciding:

With getting a newer car (used model)
  • Warranty from the manufacturer that stands behind their product - will complete routine maintenance for you, as well as if anything major happens such as an engine failure
  • Significantly less risk - just like anything else in life car parts have wear and tear. The more miles you drive on a vehicle, the higher the risk of other random parts breaking, falling apart, etc..
  • Significant (but the large amounts are usually gone by buying 3-5 years used) depreciation
  • Increased insurance costs from needing comprehensive / collision insurance, and from generally being a more expensive to replace

With repairing an older car:
  • No warranty. You break it, you buy it.
  • You have to balance if it's worth the cost of repairing the vehicle to purchasing a "newer" car. For example, you can have a $3,000 repair and you can choose between that and literally purchasing another vehicle at that cost.
  • After a repair, you are still going to be at a significantly higher risk for another costly repair. As stated above, another repair can be right around the corner
  • Depreciation is overall diminished
  • No need to buy insurance for comprehensive / collision, it will likely cost you more in premiums.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
What 3-5 year old used cars are you finding that come with a manufacturer's warranty and free maintenance?
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Only one that might, might be the Hyundai line .. They have a long time & mileage warranty. 10 years / 100K miles to the original buyer and whatever is left on 5 years / 60K miles to the next owner.
 
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