Just want to cry

[CVSiN]

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: randym431
A friend just got the toyota prius link

All I can say is WHY is the US auto industry not in front on this?
Why did my friend have to drive 600 miles to get one, made by toyota, and not Ford or GM or "some" US auto maker???

The take holds 12 gallons. They filled up and drove the 600 miles back and still had plenty of gas in the tank. This car is just so nice. Its a crying shame US auto makers rather lay off auto workers because the industry will not change and give the people what they want. Really sad, but the car is great!

Check out the inside 360 view on their site...WOW

Um why the F00k would i want one of these POS...

Im american and want horsepower not some little toy car..

If I wanted good gas mileage I'd go back to riding my motorcycle..
turn in you and your friends man cards and go be metro...

at least here in Texas you still see 6/10 vehicles is a V8 pickup truck or SUV or American Sportscar... (mostly trucks though) the other 4 cars per 10 are still gas guzzling BMWs or Mercedes.

thank heavens for red blooded americans..

instead of pansey ass treehugging hippies in thier toy cars.

:laugh:xInfinity

Sad that you're actually serious. I know plenty of Texans who drive imports like fvckin Miatas and whatnot, and they'd lay your ass on the pavement for questioning their masculinity. Guys that live and breath Texas and don't need some jacked up rig because they're compensating for their tiny in-bred peckers. I guess that's the difference between educated red-blooded americans and dipsh1t white trash.

Yah the educated ones are the ones driving the BMWs and Mercedes and the other gas guzzlers cause we can afford them...

Miata.. LOLX10000000000000000000000 turn in your texan card as well as your man card..
thats almost as bad as the Prius...

Ill stick with my gas guzzling 300 HP Mustang convertable thanks =)

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: skyking
the 100K mile argument is a laughable one. I drive all my cars 200k at least, and they can go the distance due to quality. I don't fit comfortably into a prius and I don't buy new, or it would be on the short list.

My father's had 3 Explorers, all but one made it past 200,000 miles without issue. The one that didn't was rear-ended by a motorhome and totaled at 135,000 miles. He's had more problems in one year with the Honda Pilot he bought than he had with all three Explorers. The "quality" argument is BS.

As for your take on the 100,000 mile part, that's great for you, but the average consumer doesn't keep a car that long. On average a new car buyer keeps a car for about 5 years and 80,000 miles.

ZV

and anecdotal evidence really proves alot.

JD Powers does though.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: Hacp
The Prius is a pleasing car to look at. Some people may buy it not only to save gas but for the wow factor from their friends.

reminds me of Nip tuck the other night... shawn rolls into the parking garage with his shiny new Prius with a baby seat... and is feelign pretty good about himself...
in comes a brand new bright orange lambo convertable with Christian in it... you see Shawn look back at his can and sigh...

Wow factor my butt... even a 2006 GT stang rolls up next to you people are gonna look at the stang and ignore the Prius...

depends if u got a hot chick inside or not

jessica alba has a prius and the lexus hybrid

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: randym431
A friend just got the toyota prius link

All I can say is WHY is the US auto industry not in front on this?
Why did my friend have to drive 600 miles to get one, made by toyota, and not Ford or GM or "some" US auto maker???

The take holds 12 gallons. They filled up and drove the 600 miles back and still had plenty of gas in the tank. This car is just so nice. Its a crying shame US auto makers rather lay off auto workers because the industry will not change and give the people what they want. Really sad, but the car is great!

Check out the inside 360 view on their site...WOW

Um why the F00k would i want one of these POS...

Im american and want horsepower not some little toy car..

If I wanted good gas mileage I'd go back to riding my motorcycle..
turn in you and your friends man cards and go be metro...

at least here in Texas you still see 6/10 vehicles is a V8 pickup truck or SUV or American Sportscar... (mostly trucks though) the other 4 cars per 10 are still gas guzzling BMWs or Mercedes.

thank heavens for red blooded americans..

instead of pansey ass treehugging hippies in thier toy cars.

:laugh:xInfinity

Sad that you're actually serious. I know plenty of Texans who drive imports like fvckin Miatas and whatnot, and they'd lay your ass on the pavement for questioning their masculinity. Guys that live and breath Texas and don't need some jacked up rig because they're compensating for their tiny in-bred peckers. I guess that's the difference between educated red-blooded americans and dipsh1t white trash.

Yah the educated ones are the ones driving the BMWs and Mercedes and the other gas guzzlers cause we can afford them...

Miata.. LOLX10000000000000000000000 turn in your texan card as well as your man card..
thats almost as bad as the Prius...

Ill stick with my gas guzzling 300 HP Mustang convertable thanks =)

Don't knock the Miata. It's a great car.

Ah, but have you seen how the Solstice performed at the AutoX Nationals? Scary good. Dominated their class. Mazda needs to go back to the drawing board or performance-minded Miata owners are going to starting trading in their cars for Solstices and Skys.

 

[Mo0o]

Your masculinity must be pretty fragile if the car you drive could immediately shatter it. Money saving aside theres nothing wrong with driving a car that saves gas and helps the environment. Some people dont feel the need to show off to the world just in case someone might have missed the memo about how manly you are. To be fair I also hate the self-congratulating people that think they're superior for driving a hybrid, but the cars themselves are not to be blamed.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: randym431
A friend just got the toyota prius link

All I can say is WHY is the US auto industry not in front on this?
Why did my friend have to drive 600 miles to get one, made by toyota, and not Ford or GM or "some" US auto maker???

The take holds 12 gallons. They filled up and drove the 600 miles back and still had plenty of gas in the tank. This car is just so nice. Its a crying shame US auto makers rather lay off auto workers because the industry will not change and give the people what they want. Really sad, but the car is great!

Check out the inside 360 view on their site...WOW

Um why the F00k would i want one of these POS...

Im american and want horsepower not some little toy car..

If I wanted good gas mileage I'd go back to riding my motorcycle..
turn in you and your friends man cards and go be metro...

at least here in Texas you still see 6/10 vehicles is a V8 pickup truck or SUV or American Sportscar... (mostly trucks though) the other 4 cars per 10 are still gas guzzling BMWs or Mercedes.

thank heavens for red blooded americans..

instead of pansey ass treehugging hippies in thier toy cars.

um.... congrats on being white trash?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: Hacp
The Prius is a pleasing car to look at. Some people may buy it not only to save gas but for the wow factor from their friends.

reminds me of Nip tuck the other night... shawn rolls into the parking garage with his shiny new Prius with a baby seat... and is feelign pretty good about himself...
in comes a brand new bright orange lambo convertable with Christian in it... you see Shawn look back at his can and sigh...

Wow factor my butt... even a 2006 GT stang rolls up next to you people are gonna look at the stang and ignore the Prius...

yeah, i'll look at the "stang" to laugh at the fool driving it.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: F22 Raptor

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
The US auto industry cares about money. They have no vision whatsoever. That's why unless the consumers press - which they do, usually by buying foreign - they'll keep pumping out the same sorry sh!t.
I'm used to Euro cars, and the fact of driving a US vehicle - ANY vehicle - sends shivers down my spine. Cheap interior, bad design, floaty sickening ride, no steering feel, ancient engines and transmissions.

The US Auto industry made big $ out of SUVs and trucks. A vehicle like the F150 is super cheap to make (being based on a primitive ladder-frame structure, much like full size trucks, not unibody like normal cars) and sells for good $. Why would they want to change that?

The market share of the big 3 has been shrinking for quite a while now and if not for SUVs, they would be in a critical situation long ago. Ford is loosing biliions, so does GM.

The good news are that the shakedown has been going on for quite a while now and like any other industry, US could lead the pack. I'm all for the US, but it'll take some time.

Yeah only US car makers are trying to make money, and only the US makers has that as their main goal. Get over yourself.

Never thought I'd find myself giving a reading comprehension lesson to an American. WTF?
I'll put in in other words for you and that bozo Vic: There's a profound difference between making money as a side result of having vision, good engineering, efficient production and good products (i.e. Toyota, Porsche, Renault-Nissan), and making money by focusing on an unexplained trend for commercial vehicles (= cheap) in disguise. If not for the F150 and the Explorer, Ford would have been in deep sh!t 10 years ago.

That's why, if not for the hard lesson they are taking from the Japanese and European companies, they would have continued to spew out the same crap in 20 years, such as La Sabres, trucks and rolling over SUVs.

Do you understand it now? And you, Vic?

Yes, you're a double-thinking fanboi with zero understanding of business and economics. I get it.
"Unexplained trend in commercial vehicles"??? Are you saying that businesses don't or shouldn't vehicles? Or that that isn't a viable market? :roll:

Let me apologize for confusing you. The Explorer and the F150 I gave as examples are based on commercial vehicles, at least in principle. That's what I meant.

Now, let me help you understand. Competition always fosters innovation. No competition, no innovation. So your "hard lesson" bullsh!t is just that. Some competitors fail to innovate as fast as others, and they pay the price for that, as Ford and GM are doing. Greed has nothing to do with it, quite the opposite.

"Greed" is selling a cheap-to-manufactur, technologically-inferior, dangerous (Explorer) product for full price and thinking you'll be able to do so for good because customers are stupid. Fortunately, Americans aren't nearly as dumb as Ford/GM think they are and began demanding better products, simply by buying foreign.

If what the foreigners did to the domestic industry isn't qualififed as a "hard lesson", then I don't know what is.

Oh, and that:

And "Euro quality" cars? Do you actually believe the sh!t you post? European cars are the least reliable cars in the industry, proven fact.

They might be least reliable, but they are also the benchmark to which other makers adhere. Lexus was started in order to imitate Mercedes, not the other way around. It's unfortunate your only way to judge cars is through JD surveys, though.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: Hacp
The Prius is a pleasing car to look at. Some people may buy it not only to save gas but for the wow factor from their friends.

reminds me of Nip tuck the other night... shawn rolls into the parking garage with his shiny new Prius with a baby seat... and is feelign pretty good about himself...
in comes a brand new bright orange lambo convertable with Christian in it... you see Shawn look back at his can and sigh...

Wow factor my butt... even a 2006 GT stang rolls up next to you people are gonna look at the stang and ignore the Prius...

the prius looks like a lowered aztek without all the body cladding. especially the tailgate.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Vic
Don't knock the Miata. It's a great car.

Ah, but have you seen how the Solstice performed at the AutoX Nationals? Scary good. Dominated their class. Mazda needs to go back to the drawing board or performance-minded Miata owners are going to starting trading in their cars for Solstices and Skys.

the only thing scary about the auto cross nationals is that there is a nationals. more boy-racer wankers is exactly what this country needs

 

[giantpinkbunnyhead]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Vic
Don't knock the Miata. It's a great car.

Ah, but have you seen how the Solstice performed at the AutoX Nationals? Scary good. Dominated their class. Mazda needs to go back to the drawing board or performance-minded Miata owners are going to starting trading in their cars for Solstices and Skys.

the only thing scary about the auto cross nationals is that there is a nationals. more boy-racer wankers is exactly what this country needs

I like the autocross events here. For whatever reason (and I'm not complaining), the boy-racers NEVER show up.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: F22 Raptor

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
The US auto industry cares about money. They have no vision whatsoever. That's why unless the consumers press - which they do, usually by buying foreign - they'll keep pumping out the same sorry sh!t.
I'm used to Euro cars, and the fact of driving a US vehicle - ANY vehicle - sends shivers down my spine. Cheap interior, bad design, floaty sickening ride, no steering feel, ancient engines and transmissions.

The US Auto industry made big $ out of SUVs and trucks. A vehicle like the F150 is super cheap to make (being based on a primitive ladder-frame structure, much like full size trucks, not unibody like normal cars) and sells for good $. Why would they want to change that?

The market share of the big 3 has been shrinking for quite a while now and if not for SUVs, they would be in a critical situation long ago. Ford is loosing biliions, so does GM.

The good news are that the shakedown has been going on for quite a while now and like any other industry, US could lead the pack. I'm all for the US, but it'll take some time.

Yeah only US car makers are trying to make money, and only the US makers has that as their main goal. Get over yourself.

Never thought I'd find myself giving a reading comprehension lesson to an American. WTF?
I'll put in in other words for you and that bozo Vic: There's a profound difference between making money as a side result of having vision, good engineering, efficient production and good products (i.e. Toyota, Porsche, Renault-Nissan), and making money by focusing on an unexplained trend for commercial vehicles (= cheap) in disguise. If not for the F150 and the Explorer, Ford would have been in deep sh!t 10 years ago.

That's why, if not for the hard lesson they are taking from the Japanese and European companies, they would have continued to spew out the same crap in 20 years, such as La Sabres, trucks and rolling over SUVs.

Do you understand it now? And you, Vic?

Yes, you're a double-thinking fanboi with zero understanding of business and economics. I get it.
"Unexplained trend in commercial vehicles"??? Are you saying that businesses don't or shouldn't vehicles? Or that that isn't a viable market? :roll:

Let me apologize for confusing you. The Explorer and the F150 I gave as examples are based on commercial vehicles, at least in principle. That's what I meant. This is wrong.

Now, let me help you understand. Competition always fosters innovation. No competition, no innovation. So your "hard lesson" bullsh!t is just that. Some competitors fail to innovate as fast as others, and they pay the price for that, as Ford and GM are doing. Greed has nothing to do with it, quite the opposite.

"Greed" is selling a cheap-to-manufactur, technologically-inferior, dangerous (Explorer) product for full price and thinking you'll be able to do so for good because customers are stupid. Fortunately, Americans aren't nearly as dumb as Ford/GM think they are and began demanding better products, simply by buying foreign.

If what the foreigners did to the domestic industry isn't qualififed as a "hard lesson", then I don't know what is.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. None.

For starters, the Explorer was never dangerous unless you towed an overweight trailer with underinflated tires on a day hotter than 100 degrees. Given its massive sales volume, the Explorer and the Firestone tires it sold with are the safest automotive products per miles driven ever made.

Second, domestic cars almost never sell for full price in the US. Ford and GM's main selling strategy for decades has been rebates, rebates, rebates. Sometimes they practically give them away.

Third, Americans usually buy foreign because they want a type of car that the stodgy entrenched bureaucracies in Detriot won't make. For example, I drive a Subaru Impreza WRX. I can't that kind of driving experience from Detroit unless Ford finally decides to bring the Euro-Focus RS to America, something I don't ever see happening (as they have even discontinued sales of the AWD RS in the UK).
But for mainstream consumers, first it was safety, then reliability, and finally quality that steered buyers to imports. Now, none of that applies. In fact, US auto magazines have already begun criticizing Toyota for its poor build quality and materials compared to US manufactures, a complete reversal of just a couple of years ago, which signals that the tide is turning.

So yeah, please, just STFU. Greed is your beloved Porsche selling its cars for the highest profit margins in the industry. Greed is Toyota with billions in the bank.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Vic
Don't knock the Miata. It's a great car.

Ah, but have you seen how the Solstice performed at the AutoX Nationals? Scary good. Dominated their class. Mazda needs to go back to the drawing board or performance-minded Miata owners are going to starting trading in their cars for Solstices and Skys.

the only thing scary about the auto cross nationals is that there is a nationals. more boy-racer wankers is exactly what this country needs

"Boy racers" race on the street. :roll:

AutoX is exactly the kind of driving skill and training that should be mandatory to get a license, but pussy wankers who praise incompetence as safety won't allow.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: F22 Raptor

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
The US auto industry cares about money. They have no vision whatsoever. That's why unless the consumers press - which they do, usually by buying foreign - they'll keep pumping out the same sorry sh!t.
I'm used to Euro cars, and the fact of driving a US vehicle - ANY vehicle - sends shivers down my spine. Cheap interior, bad design, floaty sickening ride, no steering feel, ancient engines and transmissions.

The US Auto industry made big $ out of SUVs and trucks. A vehicle like the F150 is super cheap to make (being based on a primitive ladder-frame structure, much like full size trucks, not unibody like normal cars) and sells for good $. Why would they want to change that?

The market share of the big 3 has been shrinking for quite a while now and if not for SUVs, they would be in a critical situation long ago. Ford is loosing biliions, so does GM.

The good news are that the shakedown has been going on for quite a while now and like any other industry, US could lead the pack. I'm all for the US, but it'll take some time.

Yeah only US car makers are trying to make money, and only the US makers has that as their main goal. Get over yourself.

Never thought I'd find myself giving a reading comprehension lesson to an American. WTF?
I'll put in in other words for you and that bozo Vic: There's a profound difference between making money as a side result of having vision, good engineering, efficient production and good products (i.e. Toyota, Porsche, Renault-Nissan), and making money by focusing on an unexplained trend for commercial vehicles (= cheap) in disguise. If not for the F150 and the Explorer, Ford would have been in deep sh!t 10 years ago.

That's why, if not for the hard lesson they are taking from the Japanese and European companies, they would have continued to spew out the same crap in 20 years, such as La Sabres, trucks and rolling over SUVs.

Do you understand it now? And you, Vic?

Yes, you're a double-thinking fanboi with zero understanding of business and economics. I get it.
"Unexplained trend in commercial vehicles"??? Are you saying that businesses don't or shouldn't vehicles? Or that that isn't a viable market? :roll:

Let me apologize for confusing you. The Explorer and the F150 I gave as examples are based on commercial vehicles, at least in principle. That's what I meant.

Now, let me help you understand. Competition always fosters innovation. No competition, no innovation. So your "hard lesson" bullsh!t is just that. Some competitors fail to innovate as fast as others, and they pay the price for that, as Ford and GM are doing. Greed has nothing to do with it, quite the opposite.

"Greed" is selling a cheap-to-manufactur, technologically-inferior, dangerous (Explorer) product for full price and thinking you'll be able to do so for good because customers are stupid. Fortunately, Americans aren't nearly as dumb as Ford/GM think they are and began demanding better products, simply by buying foreign.

If what the foreigners did to the domestic industry isn't qualififed as a "hard lesson", then I don't know what is.

Oh, and that:

And "Euro quality" cars? Do you actually believe the sh!t you post? European cars are the least reliable cars in the industry, proven fact.

They might be least reliable, but they are also the benchmark to which other makers adhere. Lexus was started in order to imitate Mercedes, not the other way around. It's unfortunate your only way to judge cars is through JD surveys, though.

oddly enough, merc has started to imitate lexus. mechanized factories, tighter tolerances, etc. merc was starting to be like cadillac when merc overtook caddy.


anyway, your point about money making being a side result of vision is horsesh!t. toyota is a company, and their number 1 priority is to make money. if you think it's any other way than that i've got a bridge to sell you. their vision is their strategy to make money, and they're one of the best companies at doing so (making money).

as for making money based on 'commercial vehicles', toyota has a more extensive SUV lineup than anyone else. obviously they're trying to capitalize on it too. again, your argument is horsesh!t.

and i don't know why you think the things are cheap. explorers gained in popularity when they became luxurious inside. they were expensive. trucks have become ever more popular as the insides have become more car-like. and more expensive. just because they have higher margins than cars does not mean they are cheaper to manufacture. again, horsesh!t.

and as for unexplained, well, why wouldn't you want a vehicle able to haul your family and all your stuff, including a trailer? after the death of the station wagon at the hands of the minivan, the explorer was about the only place to go for people who didn't want minivans, or might want to tow something. you'll note that SUVs like the bronco and blazer weren't all that popular when station wagons were around and SUVs were rugged spartan offroaders. again, 'unexplained' is horsesh!t.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Vic
"Boy racers" race on the street. :roll:

AutoX is exactly the kind of driving skill and training that should be mandatory to get a license, but pussy wankers who praise incompetence as safety won't allow.

i bet more accidents per vehicle mile are caused by boy racer wankers trying to show off their 'skills' than by normal attentive drivers.

note i said attentive, not cell phone users, people grooming themselves or eating their egg mcmuffin.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: F22 Raptor

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
The US auto industry cares about money. They have no vision whatsoever. That's why unless the consumers press - which they do, usually by buying foreign - they'll keep pumping out the same sorry sh!t.
I'm used to Euro cars, and the fact of driving a US vehicle - ANY vehicle - sends shivers down my spine. Cheap interior, bad design, floaty sickening ride, no steering feel, ancient engines and transmissions.

The US Auto industry made big $ out of SUVs and trucks. A vehicle like the F150 is super cheap to make (being based on a primitive ladder-frame structure, much like full size trucks, not unibody like normal cars) and sells for good $. Why would they want to change that?

The market share of the big 3 has been shrinking for quite a while now and if not for SUVs, they would be in a critical situation long ago. Ford is loosing biliions, so does GM.

The good news are that the shakedown has been going on for quite a while now and like any other industry, US could lead the pack. I'm all for the US, but it'll take some time.

Yeah only US car makers are trying to make money, and only the US makers has that as their main goal. Get over yourself.

Never thought I'd find myself giving a reading comprehension lesson to an American. WTF?
I'll put in in other words for you and that bozo Vic: There's a profound difference between making money as a side result of having vision, good engineering, efficient production and good products (i.e. Toyota, Porsche, Renault-Nissan), and making money by focusing on an unexplained trend for commercial vehicles (= cheap) in disguise. If not for the F150 and the Explorer, Ford would have been in deep sh!t 10 years ago.

That's why, if not for the hard lesson they are taking from the Japanese and European companies, they would have continued to spew out the same crap in 20 years, such as La Sabres, trucks and rolling over SUVs.

Do you understand it now? And you, Vic?

Yes, you're a double-thinking fanboi with zero understanding of business and economics. I get it.
"Unexplained trend in commercial vehicles"??? Are you saying that businesses don't or shouldn't vehicles? Or that that isn't a viable market? :roll:

Let me apologize for confusing you. The Explorer and the F150 I gave as examples are based on commercial vehicles, at least in principle. That's what I meant. This is wrong.

Now, let me help you understand. Competition always fosters innovation. No competition, no innovation. So your "hard lesson" bullsh!t is just that. Some competitors fail to innovate as fast as others, and they pay the price for that, as Ford and GM are doing. Greed has nothing to do with it, quite the opposite.

"Greed" is selling a cheap-to-manufactur, technologically-inferior, dangerous (Explorer) product for full price and thinking you'll be able to do so for good because customers are stupid. Fortunately, Americans aren't nearly as dumb as Ford/GM think they are and began demanding better products, simply by buying foreign.

If what the foreigners did to the domestic industry isn't qualififed as a "hard lesson", then I don't know what is.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. None.

For starters, the Explorer was never dangerous unless you towed an overweight trailer with underinflated tires on a day hotter than 100 degrees. Given its massive sales volume, the Explorer and the Firestone tires it sold with are the safest automotive products per miles driven ever made.

The Explorer is just another example of cheaply engineered, cheaply built inferior product.
Why do you think it's based on ladder frame? Performance? Safety? I call BS. It was CHEAP to design and make.

Second, domestic cars almost never sell for full price in the US. Ford and GM's main selling strategy for decades has been rebates, rebates, rebates. Sometimes they practically give them away.

That's where they've come to with the "Employee pricing" scheme. You have a crap product and development cycles take 3-5 years, so what do you do? Sell your inferior products for cheap. But that's not a model that can sustain itself, obviously.
Was it always this way? What about the early ninetees, where they still had some dignity?

Third, Americans usually buy foreign because they want a type of car that the stodgy entrenched bureaucracies in Detriot won't make. For example, I drive a Subaru Impreza WRX. I can't that kind of driving experience from Detroit unless Ford finally decides to bring the Euro-Focus RS to America, something I don't ever see happening (as they have even discontinued sales of the AWD RS in the UK).

There is no AWD RS. Focus RS is FWD w/LSD, and they've discontinued it's sales mostly because there's a new Focus now.
I otherwise agree (and the WRX is a fine car).

But for mainstream consumers, first it was safety, then reliability, and finally quality that steered buyers to imports. Now, none of that applies. In fact, US auto magazines have already begun criticizing Toyota for its poor build quality and materials compared to US manufactures, a complete reversal of just a couple of years ago, which signals that the tide is turning.

Toyota isn't the only brand. What about Honda, Nissan, etc? Although, I only heard complaints about their new Camry, didn't hear anything about the rest.
The tide is turning exactly due to the shakedown I talked about. It's obvious that in their next generation, American cars would be better, and eventually close the gap to the Euro/Japanese. No one doubts that.

So yeah, please, just STFU. Greed is your beloved Porsche selling its cars for the highest profit margins in the industry. Greed is Toyota with billions in the bank.

Porsche is selling a premium product. Every company has some greed embedded in it, obviously, but not many build their business model on the shortcomings of the customer, or patriotism that leads to domestic sales.

Let me rephrase: Ford/GM have bad management that isn't too enthusiastic about cars, and tend rely too much on one extremely profitable market segment - SUVs/Trucks - because it's easy to compete there.

I wonder what emotional switch I've hit, hehe

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: mugs
Why? Because you'd have to be a retard or a hippie or someone who cares only about appearances to buy a Prius.

Pretty ironic that your friend drove 1200 miles round trip to get one. So much for saving gas.

Bullsh!t. What's wrong with saving some money on gas? If you're going to buy a car anyway and you drive a lot there's nothing wrong with buying a Prius.

Your generalizations about the people who buy these cars is utterly ridiculous. :thumbsdown:

Because initially (for a while, forgot the exact numbers) you aren't saving money even though you spend less on gass, because the car is more expensive.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: F22 Raptor

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
The US auto industry cares about money. They have no vision whatsoever. That's why unless the consumers press - which they do, usually by buying foreign - they'll keep pumping out the same sorry sh!t.
I'm used to Euro cars, and the fact of driving a US vehicle - ANY vehicle - sends shivers down my spine. Cheap interior, bad design, floaty sickening ride, no steering feel, ancient engines and transmissions.

The US Auto industry made big $ out of SUVs and trucks. A vehicle like the F150 is super cheap to make (being based on a primitive ladder-frame structure, much like full size trucks, not unibody like normal cars) and sells for good $. Why would they want to change that?

The market share of the big 3 has been shrinking for quite a while now and if not for SUVs, they would be in a critical situation long ago. Ford is loosing biliions, so does GM.

The good news are that the shakedown has been going on for quite a while now and like any other industry, US could lead the pack. I'm all for the US, but it'll take some time.

Yeah only US car makers are trying to make money, and only the US makers has that as their main goal. Get over yourself.

Never thought I'd find myself giving a reading comprehension lesson to an American. WTF?
I'll put in in other words for you and that bozo Vic: There's a profound difference between making money as a side result of having vision, good engineering, efficient production and good products (i.e. Toyota, Porsche, Renault-Nissan), and making money by focusing on an unexplained trend for commercial vehicles (= cheap) in disguise. If not for the F150 and the Explorer, Ford would have been in deep sh!t 10 years ago.

That's why, if not for the hard lesson they are taking from the Japanese and European companies, they would have continued to spew out the same crap in 20 years, such as La Sabres, trucks and rolling over SUVs.

Do you understand it now? And you, Vic?

Yes, you're a double-thinking fanboi with zero understanding of business and economics. I get it.
"Unexplained trend in commercial vehicles"??? Are you saying that businesses don't or shouldn't vehicles? Or that that isn't a viable market? :roll:

Let me apologize for confusing you. The Explorer and the F150 I gave as examples are based on commercial vehicles, at least in principle. That's what I meant.

Now, let me help you understand. Competition always fosters innovation. No competition, no innovation. So your "hard lesson" bullsh!t is just that. Some competitors fail to innovate as fast as others, and they pay the price for that, as Ford and GM are doing. Greed has nothing to do with it, quite the opposite.

"Greed" is selling a cheap-to-manufactur, technologically-inferior, dangerous (Explorer) product for full price and thinking you'll be able to do so for good because customers are stupid. Fortunately, Americans aren't nearly as dumb as Ford/GM think they are and began demanding better products, simply by buying foreign.

If what the foreigners did to the domestic industry isn't qualififed as a "hard lesson", then I don't know what is.

Oh, and that:

And "Euro quality" cars? Do you actually believe the sh!t you post? European cars are the least reliable cars in the industry, proven fact.

They might be least reliable, but they are also the benchmark to which other makers adhere. Lexus was started in order to imitate Mercedes, not the other way around. It's unfortunate your only way to judge cars is through JD surveys, though.

oddly enough, merc has started to imitate lexus. mechanized factories, tighter tolerances, etc. merc was starting to be like cadillac when merc overtook caddy.

Mercedes isn't imitating Lexus, Mercedes is striving to build a better, more reliable product. You could just as well say they're imitating every electric appliances company... BS.

anyway, your point about money making being a side result of vision is horsesh!t. toyota is a company, and their number 1 priority is to make money.

They make money by pioneering and building better products. Compare the Prius with the EV1. It's a good lesson.

as for making money based on 'commercial vehicles', toyota has a more extensive SUV lineup than anyone else. obviously they're trying to capitalize on it too. again, your argument is horsesh!t.

I didn't say they aren't capitalizing on it. Porsche made the Cayenne, and very rightly so.

and i don't know why you think the things are cheap. explorers gained in popularity when they became luxurious inside. they were expensive. trucks have become ever more popular as the insides have become more car-like. and more expensive. just because they have higher margins than cars does not mean they are cheaper to manufacture. again, horsesh!t.

Do you have any idea of the BOM of a car, or just spattering crap? Yes, I thought it's the latter. Real chassis and suspension cost more than putting fancy electronic displays and cheap leather (which come as options anyway, in parts).

and as for unexplained, well, why wouldn't you want a vehicle able to haul your family and all your stuff, including a trailer? after the death of the station wagon at the hands of the minivan, the explorer was about the only place to go for people who didn't want minivans, or might want to tow something. you'll note that SUVs like the bronco and blazer weren't all that popular when station wagons were around and SUVs were rugged spartan offroaders. again, 'unexplained' is horsesh!t.

How many people utilize the full towing/carrying capacities of their SUVs? Forget Explorers, look at Excursions and the likes. It's a fad, for the most part, and one that's gonna disappear along with cheap petrol. It's already happening.

Bottom line is that American cars can't compete outside America for a very good reason. I'll let you figure out what it is. Hint: it rhymes with "Inferior".

 

[LandRover]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: mugs
Why? Because you'd have to be a retard or a hippie or someone who cares only about appearances to buy a Prius.

Pretty ironic that your friend drove 1200 miles round trip to get one. So much for saving gas.

Bullsh!t. What's wrong with saving some money on gas? If you're going to buy a car anyway and you drive a lot there's nothing wrong with buying a Prius.

Your generalizations about the people who buy these cars is utterly ridiculous. :thumbsdown:

Because initially (for a while, forgot the exact numbers) you aren't saving money even though you spend less on gass, because the car is more expensive.

More expensive than what exactly? I want more information on the mid-size car (not compact) that has everything the Prius has, and apparently sells for at least 8K less. Specifics please. Thanks.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
blah blah blah

so now you've changed your argument from saying that money is a side result of vision to saying that they're in it for money. after damning the US auto industry for capitalizing on SUVs and trucks you've admitted that everyone is doing it.

good job.

and i was unaware that a fully boxed ladder frame wasn't a 'real chassis'

:roll:

next.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: LandRover

More expensive than what exactly? I want more information on the mid-size car (not compact) that has everything the Prius has, and apparently sells for at least 8K less. Specifics please. Thanks.

i don't think there are any other cars with such a unique combination of whiz bang technology and craptastic hard plastic interior. i can show you cars with a cheap craptastic hard plastic interior for thousands less. prius is $27500 on carsdirect for a cloth interior, side airbags, VSC, and 6 CD changer.

 

[crystal]

Look at you guys. You complain if the auto makers fail to invest in R&D for better technology & gas milage. When they produced hybrid cars with early adoption cost, you call any one that brought one stupid. Do you ever think what will happen if no one buy them, they will scrap the whole ideas and produce same old same old cars. You, on the other hand, will go back to your same old same old complains. :disgust:

 

[LandRover]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: LandRover

More expensive than what exactly? I want more information on the mid-size car (not compact) that has everything the Prius has, and apparently sells for at least 8K less. Specifics please. Thanks.

i don't think there are any other cars with such a unique combination of whiz bang technology and craptastic hard plastic interior. i can show you cars with a cheap craptastic hard plastic interior for thousands less. prius is $27500 for a cloth interior, side airbags, VSC, and 6 CD changer.

Craptastic hard plastic? That just seems like a really ridiculous statement. I forgot that all other cars have interior panels that are covered in silk. ALL new cars have plastic panels, and the Prius is no worse.

22K for a Prius with side air bags, ABS, traction control, etc., etc. That's just brutal. When compared with an equally equipped car, the price difference is not at all as large as many people seem to believe.

If certain people don't like a car like the Prius, that's fine, to each their own. But when they create unrealistic arguments and accuse anyone that drives one of being either a tree hugger or a super-psycho liberal nut-job is really just stupid (not talking about you, most of this is aimed at people in general). I think a lot of it just comes down to feelings of hostility because it is assumed by some that the person that owns the hybrid automatically thinks they are superior. That's just a lot of BS. Are there some people like that? Yes. Are there people in Hummers, Escalades, and sports cars that think they are better? Yes. Get over it.

A lot of people that have bought a hybrid were in the market for a quality mid-size car that was safe, reliable, and at the same time, they were responsible enough to feel inclined to purchase a vehicle that gets excellent mileage and is extremely environmentally friendly. I find it amusing how it's frowned upon by some, when someone else is just doing something responsible and showing that they actually give a ******. I keep forgetting that cleaner air and less dependence on foreign oil would be a bad thing.

And for the people that will continue to assault the Prius and other hybrid cars, maybe they should educate their self on the subject matter, and at least go drive one, so they actually have some idea as to what they are talking about. And at the same time, maybe they will be surprised to discover that they don't drive and handle like go-karts.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I wonder what emotional switch I've hit, hehe

The one where you've annoyed the crap out of me with your stupidity.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: LandRover
Craptastic hard plastic? That just seems like a really ridiculous statement. I forgot that all other cars have interior panels that are covered in silk. ALL new cars have plastic panels, and the Prius is no worse.

i'm not a dashboard stroker by any stretch of the imagination, but i got in one for the first time the other day and was shocked by the cheapness of the interior. and in its price range its the only car with a cheap plastic interior. there is a difference between cheap hard plastic and high quality stuff. cheap plastic is what is found in ford focii and nissan sentras, higher quality stuff is in the VW jetta.

22K for a Prius with side air bags, ABS, traction control, etc., etc. That's just brutal. When compared with an equally equipped car, the price difference is not at all as large as many people seem to believe.

you're off by $5,500 from the number i quoted. that's 25% more than what you're thinking. i dunno about you, but i don't keep $5,500 laying around.

a vehicle that gets excellent mileage and is extremely environmentally friendly

see, there is the rub: it isn't that environmentally friendly. again, you've fallen into the trap that thinking that consuming a NEW car can be environmentally friendly. especially one with two drive trains and a trunk full of batteries. oh boy it gets better mileage on the road! but so much extra energy is used when building the thing that it isn't as energy efficient, manufacturing to salvage, as other cars. and it certainly isn't as efficient as keeping the car you have running.

read this

wow, a hummer costs less in energy than a honda civic hybrid! (although that figure is whack because the guy expects the life to be 300,000 miles... maybe a gov't issue one in military service, but i doubt more than a handful of civilian hummer-branded vehicles turn over 300,000 miles)

hybrid sales were down year to year for the first 6 months of this year, with consumers citing mileage that isn't very good combined with high costs!


face it, hybrids in their current battery-powered form are a dead end. in 50 years they'll just be an interesting footnote in automotive history (like the 4-6-8 toronado).