Just want to say that I hate China.

[Train]

Didn't they relocate the US embassy years ago to prevent us from measuring the pollution. I don't remember the details someone please enlighten me.

I don't think so, but I do recall the Chinese calling BS on the air purity report published daily by the US embassy, especially since it was so incredibly worse than the "official" air purity report released through state controlled media, which of course is the real numbers.

 

[PowerYoga]

Interesting. The question remains though. Considering where they are, without religion, how do you teach someone to do the right things simply because they're the right things to do? Without religion? Is do onto others what you would have them do onto you compelling enough a reason to convince people to actually act accordingly in real life?

I for one think do onto others is the very minimal standard of conduct. If your standards are not high so will your actions onto others if you go by this rule. Where's the above and beyond clause? The "just because" clause?

That's more of a philosophical question and I don't have an answer to that. But in the modern day world laws have that effect for a minimal standard of conduct, which is being enforced conveniently or not at all in China.

It's hard to say how you can engrain "Do the right thing" into the minds of the people, but education has a lot to do with it and the Chinese government's education methods are ass backwards for starters. They focus more on patriotism and how great Mao is instead of fundamental things like "be nice to your neighbors" and "don't poison the cabbage to make it weigh more so you can sell it for 0.05 cents more at the market".

 

[lupi]

Just want to say that I told you not to go.

 

[DrunkenSano]

Sucks you have to suffer in Mainland China, FFB. Certainly sounds like a shithole and the mainlander FOBs I've encountered are some of the rudest, loudest, and most obnoxious people I've ever met.

 

[dighn]

That's more of a philosophical question and I don't have an answer to that. But in the modern day world laws have that effect for a minimal standard of conduct, which is being enforced conveniently or not at all in China.

It's hard to say how you can engrain "Do the right thing" into the minds of the people, but education has a lot to do with it and the Chinese government's education methods are ass backwards for starters. They focus more on patriotism and how great Mao is instead of fundamental things like "be nice to your neighbors" and "don't poison the cabbage to make it weigh more so you can sell it for 0.05 cents more at the market".

they do, but when mixed with stuff like how great Mao is, and when all the communists are corrupt as hell, it all sounds like one big joke. the government is suffering from an ethical legitimacy crisis. they still call themselves communists and preach communist ideals when they are anything but communists. how can anyone take anything they say seriously? the ruling class is setting very bad examples for the general public.

 

[Old Hippie]

Just yesterday one of the bartenders working at the hostel told me he didn't like black people. I asked him why and he said that yesterday there was a black person who was speaking rather coarse and loud to him. So he extrapolated this experience into "not liking black people." There are practically no black people in China, travelers and otherwise

People are the same everywhere.

Tolerence and education are the keys.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others seems to be what you're experiencing.

 

[metalmania]

I don't think so, but I do recall the Chinese calling BS on the air purity report published daily by the US embassy, especially since it was so incredibly worse than the "official" air purity report released through state controlled media, which of course is the real numbers.

I don't know where you were hiding but your memory is definitely WRONG. Many Chinese people believes US embassy air quality report instead of the Chinese official report. In fact the influence was so big that the Chinese government had to show the "PM 2.5" measurement which was totally out the picture before. The official results are always "better" than the US embassy version of course, but Chinese people don't trust those numbers. They trust the US numbers instead.

 

[felang]

I just heard this morning on NPR radio that the daugther of Xi (the new boss of China) is a student at Harvard. Not a lot of regular folks in China can send their kids to US to study, let alone at a Ivy League school.

Sure, not a lot of regular folks can, but there are a lot of rich people in China. Even if percentage wise there are a lot less than the U.S., there is a huge population of people that can afford to send their kids to school overseas.

Actually there is a huge amount of chinese people studying abroad.

Didn't they relocate the US embassy years ago to prevent us from measuring the pollution. I don't remember the details someone please enlighten me.

How would this prevent anybody from measuring anything?

 

[Northern Lawn]

Reminds me of those before after pictures when the Olympics were in beijing, they had to stop cars from driving, replace 10,000 taxis and buses with natural gas one and even close down factories.

 

[Train]

I don't know where you were hiding but your memory is definitely WRONG. Many Chinese people believes US embassy air quality report instead of the Chinese official report. In fact the influence was so big that the Chinese government had to show the "PM 2.5" measurement which was totally out the picture before. The official results are always "better" than the US embassy version of course, but Chinese people don't trust those numbers. They trust the US numbers instead.

Tap your sarcasm meter homey.

 

[Northern Lawn]

I think the OP has been squished to death with a steam roller on orders from the Chinese Government. Can I be a moderator now?

 

[HumblePie]

Didn't China just go through a complete government change over this week?

 

[dighn]

Didn't China just go through a complete government change over this week?

yeah but nobody knows what that means

 

[mikegg]

Seriously? You think chinese people are that poor? Sorry, but they dont buy diapers because its not something they are accustomed to, its not cause they are poor. America buys diapers because youd get thrown in jail for having a naked baby running around...lol.


(Actually I think you might have been being sarcastic)

I think you're being sarcastic or just ignorant. China has 1.5 billion people. The majority of their 1.5 billion are living in poverty. You think everyone in China live like they are in Shanghai or Hong Kong?

 

[happysmiles]

Oh the joys of being a Westerner. Imagine being chinese and knowing how the west live yet trying to get out and obtain citizenship or long term resident etc because they don't want to stay in China.

But that's how the world works and it's shit, unfair and I wish we all took care for one another.

Eventually you'll go back to your home country and this will all be eventually a bad dream to you.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Reminds me of those before after pictures when the Olympics were in beijing, they had to stop cars from driving, replace 10,000 taxis and buses with natural gas one and even close down factories.

I can confirm that it's now back to the original. Some days visibility is maybe a quarter mile. This is in Beijing.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Didn't China just go through a complete government change over this week?

They just appointed members from within the party to new positions. That's it. Same party. Nothing's really different.

 

[elitejp]

I think you're being sarcastic or just ignorant. China has 1.5 billion people. The majority of their 1.5 billion are living in poverty. You think everyone in China live like they are in Shanghai or Hong Kong?

By whose standards. I know I know, even college professors try to teach that chinese people are making below poverty. But the thing is China isnt america and I can get a good meal for about 1 usd. Try doing that in the states. Then add to the fact 90% of people own their own house(s) that makes me think that these people arent as poor as what america likes to make people think. I dont know but not worrying about food and owning your own house seems to make me think that they are doing ok. But if you want to talk about hk or shanghai, I dont know many americans who could ever afford to buy a house there...its just crazy expensive.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

By whose standards. I know I know, even college professors try to teach that chinese people are making below poverty. But the thing is China isnt america and I can get a good meal for about 1 usd. Try doing that in the states. Then add to the fact 90% of people own their own house(s) that makes me think that these people arent as poor as what america likes to make people think. I dont know but not worrying about food and owning your own house seems to make me think that they are doing ok. But if you want to talk about hk or shanghai, I dont know many americans who could ever afford to buy a house there...its just crazy expensive.

Think about it this way: in the US we make, what, $3k a month? In a big city like Bejing the monthly salary is 4200rmb or $677 a month.

On average, they make 23% of what we make.

We can get a meal for $7. In the big cities, most people eat for $3 a meal in China. I know. I'm in China right now.

So their food is only 43% the price of our food. For western restaurants the prices are exactly the same there as it is here. Starbucks is twice as expensive in China.

Their cars are more expensive than in the US because the government adds a 100% tax to a lot of cars. Motorcycles included.

Rent is $800 a month here. In Beijing rent is also $800 a month.

Gas is $4.5/gal here. In Beijing it is at least $4.5/gal, but mostly more expensive.

Computers are the same price as the US if not more expensive.

Most people buy houses because they get money from parents to buy the house. And then their savings are decimated. Chinese people save a LOT and as much as this is a good habit, they don't understand financial leverage very well, preferring to pay in cash as much as they can before getting a loan, even if its at a good interest rate. A lot of cars, for example, are paid off entirely in cash.

Why a lot of people think the Chinese are well off is because of this:

China has a huge population. Even if just 1% of that population is well off, 1% of 1,344,130,000 is 134,413,000 people.

The entire US has 311,591,917 people.

So yeah, there are a ton of well off Chinese people buying houses in western countries and whatnot, but the vast majority are not in this situation. The idea that the Chinese as a whole are well off is an illusion brought on by the huge population.

 

[randomrogue]

Fuzzy domestic airfare is pretty cheap. About $100 per leg even across the whole country. I'd really suggest you go check out some other places, like a tourist, so you can have some good memories. Go check out the Terracotta Warriors (if they've fixed it so the walk way isn't so far away), the Panda Reserve in Chengdu, the Mountains between Sichuan and Tibet (number of national parks there), the more remote parts of the Great Wall where you can see the really steep parts and the unrestored parts, the circus and zoo in Guangzhou, Hong Kong, the Bund, West Lake, etc. These are all very touristy and easily accessible and unless you're already too jaded are a ton of fun and amazing to see. There's plenty more, especially in the south. All those beautiful pictures of China in every noodle shop are generally in Southern Provinces.

Honestly unless you're a Chinese dissident I don't understand how you can't have fun there. You are not a permanent resident. You should be seeing everything and living it up. It was non stop fun for me. The worst part was having to do all my laundry by hand. Really. That was the worst part.

The number one thing that people do wrong when traveling to other countries is comparing them to their home country. China is not the USA. You knew this before you left and you know this now. You're not going to change it.

 

[mikegg]

By whose standards. I know I know, even college professors try to teach that chinese people are making below poverty. But the thing is China isnt america and I can get a good meal for about 1 usd. Try doing that in the states. Then add to the fact 90% of people own their own house(s) that makes me think that these people arent as poor as what america likes to make people think. I dont know but not worrying about food and owning your own house seems to make me think that they are doing ok. But if you want to talk about hk or shanghai, I dont know many americans who could ever afford to buy a house there...its just crazy expensive.

The Chinese spend 40% of their salary on food - not because they eat well but because that's how much food costs over there.

 

[Ichinisan]

The Chinese spend 40% of their salary on food - not because they eat well but because that's how much food costs over there.

I probably spend at least that much on food. I don't earn much, but I'm not living in poverty either.

 

[dud]

Why a lot of people think the Chinese are well off is because of this:

China has a huge population. Even if just 1% of that population is well off, 1% of 1,344,130,000 is 134,413,000 people.

The entire US has 311,591,917 people.

So yeah, there are a ton of well off Chinese people buying houses in western countries and whatnot, but the vast majority are not in this situation. The idea that the Chinese as a whole are well off is an illusion brought on by the huge population.

Sorry OP but your math is off by an order of magnitude. 1% of 1.344T is 13.4M not 134M. Your math may be off but your point is well taken.

Seeing the "Peoples" Republic through your eyes has been quite eye-opening (pun intended) and much appreciated. You are human and you bring your own biases with you ... but even with that considered this is much more than anyone could expect from a mainstrean "news" organization. If CNN provided in-depth information as you have ... the empire would put the smackdown on them.

Keep up the good work ...

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Sorry OP but your math is off by an order of magnitude. 1% of 1.344T is 13.4M not 134M. Your math may be off but your point is well taken.

Seeing the "Peoples" Republic through your eyes has been quite eye-opening (pun intended) and much appreciated. You are human and you bring your own biases with you ... but even with that considered this is much more than anyone could expect from a mainstrean "news" organization. If CNN provided in-depth information as you have ... the empire would put the smackdown on them.

Keep up the good work ...

Doh, complete brain fart ><

The official number of "rich" people in China is 11 million:

http://gochina.scmp.com/lifestyle/n...rich-people-asia-pacific-surpassed-north-amer

Update on the new party:

Here are the profiles of the new leadership:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20321603

Zhang Dejiang: he's the new party chief: "His tough stance towards protestors and journalists was also unpopular. He is not known to be a reformer, and opposed allowing businessmen to join the party." He also studied economics in North Korea, China's oldest ally. Great. North Korea? Economics? WTF? North Korea *has* no economy. The hell...

Liu Yunshan: Head of the party's Propaganda Department. "He is likely to maintain China's heavy-handed media censorship and intolerance of criticism, a system which sees thousands of people police internet content. Mr Liu has expressed concern over the growing numbers of Chinese using online forums to criticize the government." That's just dandy. The number of critics is growing. I bet his solution is just to censor and suppress the critics rather than actually, you know, deal with the issues that his people are criticizing the government on. Suppress and ignore the underlying problem and it'll go away. That's how real men deal with things, right? I'd like for him to prove everyone wrong.

I like Li Keqiang and Wang Qishan, but I also don't know much about them.

Note that none of them seem to have western educations.

One of the things I find kind of promising is that many of them had tough upbringings. They know what it's like to suffer, to work in the fields and go without food. Unfortunately this can be a double edged sword because like others have said, China has been through a lot of turmoil these past 50 years and all the leaders probably have a huge desire to keep things from going crazy again. But in my opinion their way of going about it is too heavy handed.

I also understand how hard it must be for them. There are just so many different, powerful interest groups that even a true reformer would have a hard time dealing with the clusterfuck. Dealing with such a huge population isn't going to be easy.

 

[yuchai]

A lot has happened since I last posted, but just wanted to add a few other thoughts. Many have talked again about the problems of the Chinese government. But again, have to say that based on the history I'm not sure a better outcome could have been had under a different approach. For example, if you think a democracy would have worked better for China in the post Mao era up to now, I really think you are delusional. A democracy is great for stable, developed countries. It is quite terrible, in my opinion, for a developing country that needed a drastic change in direction. The problem is that nobody is going to be able to agree on anything, and you see no lack of examples of that in many democratic countries. The people also have to understand what a democracy is all about first, understand it, and have a culture that supports it for it to all work out. I would take a look at Russia as an example and argue that switching too rapidly to a democratic system is not necessarily a good thing.

That is not to say, though, that the current system is fine down the road. In fact, I think China is now at a point where they really need to address the growing problems that exist in the system. Failure to do that will eventually cause increasing unrest among those that continue to be the "losers" in the system. You guys have to realize though, that there is an extremely fine balance in how you go about doing that. If you change things too quickly, that has a real risk of destabilizing the whole system. The last thing the country needs now, for example, is a civil war. The Chinese people recognize this, and I think that is also part of the reason why they have chosen put up with some of the issues in the past. The challenge for the Chinese government is to really to continue to make reforms, but at a pace that is appropriate and that would not derail some of the good things that are going on in the country.