Just Watched 'Jesus Camp'

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: crownjules
Originally posted by: Vic
"Our Advanced Alien Species, who art in Deep Space, Hallowed be thy Very Large Array... "

Do you really need to fall back on appealing to emotions through the invocation of a familiar phrase? Or do you have a real arguement somewhere that might support the tinfoil hat theory?

I wasn't doing anything of the sort. I was simply mocking you for your insistence that 2 obviously identical things are somehow, in your opinion, radically different. Remember, we're not talking about alien life in general. We're talking about SETI, which means we're talking about Advanced Alien Species who have both the ability and the desire to communicate with humanity across that vastness of interstellar space. That first paragraph of yours above seemed to miss that crucial distinction.
Next, your definition of God falls under what is known as the transcendental belief, which is typical for Judeo-Chrisitianity but not necessarily other religions. The transcendental God (meaning that God transcends the existence of us mere mortals) came about because first, God lived in the volcano (or some other place inaccessable to humans, like the sea or lofty mountains, etc.), then he lived in the heavens, and then (in modern times) he lives outside of existence itself (a logical impossibility). Other religions have different views that do not require that God exist outside existence or be in opposition to the laws of nature (which by definition he would have created, right?). This comes in varying flavors from (believe it or not) Advanced Aliens Species to Sufism/Hinduism God who is the embodied reflection of the universe itself to "Einstein's God" who is the very universe itself. Etc.
Your third paragraph, however, was what I was really mocking in my variation of the Lord's Prayer there. Whee... they have sent messages too.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Vic
On this note that people who don't believe in evolution are "whack jobs," that is an extremely unscientific opinion. Scientific theories don't require that people believe in them, they just ARE. Science is not dependent on faith or popular opinion. Those sientific theories that prevail do so not because people believe in them, but because they are proven over time to be correct.

Are you trying to make a point? I don't see any logical connection between the first sentence and the rest of your statements.

Originally posted by: Vic
If you're looking for "whack jobs," I suggest you look at people who insist that everyone else hold the same beliefs as they do.

Calling someone a "whack job" is a far cry from trying to force them to follow a specific set of beliefs.

Originally posted by: Vic
On that same note, how are SETI not whack jobs? There's no scientific evidence whatsoever for the extistence of advanced alien species, yet they pretend to have scientific backing with a statement that is just as vague and scientifically meaningless as what the religious use to validate their belief in creationism, "the universe is so big and perfect and complex, it's just impossible that... "

FYI, here is their actual mission statement (as opposed to the horseshit one you just posted).

The mission of the SETI Institute is to explore, understand and explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe.

I don't see how you can claim that the SETI Project does not have "scientific backing". The results of their search will be scientifically significant regardless of whether they succeed or fail.

Calling someone a "whack job" is implying that societal shame should be brought upon them. When referring to their beliefs, that most certainly is an indirect way of trying to force people to believe a certain way. Science doesn't require your help in that fashion.

As to SETI, they really are "whack jobs." They're listening for the voice of God and trying to disguise that as science.

Disagreeing with someone and calling them nuts has NOTHING ABSOLUTELY TO DO with FORCING PEOPLE to believe what you do.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
If we find alien life they will spread their message of Jesus and find that we have already heard the message and they will love us for it.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

You're confusing two concepts. It is not unscientific to look for alien species, however it is unscientific to claim that they exist.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Vic
For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

You're confusing two concepts. It is not unscientific to look for alien species, however it is unscientific to claim that they exist.

How often do you look for things that you think don't exist?
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Vic
For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

You're confusing two concepts. It is not unscientific to look for alien species, however it is unscientific to claim that they exist.

Let's have a quote from one of SETI's champions:

I'm often asked the question, "Do you think there is
extraterrestrial intelligence?" I give the standard arguments
-- there are a lot of places out there, and use the word *billions*,
and so on. And then I say it would be astonishing to me if there
weren't extraterrestrial intelligence, but of course there is as
yet no compelling evidence for it. And then I'm asked, "Yeah,
but what's your gut feeling?" But I try not to think with my gut.
Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in.
-- Carl Sagan, The Burden Of Skepticism,
The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. 12, Fall 87

Somehow that gets twisted around to become "religion".
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Vic
For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

You're confusing two concepts. It is not unscientific to look for alien species, however it is unscientific to claim that they exist.

How often do you look for things that you think don't exist?

How often do you actually read what people post? One can believe that something exists, but not claim that it does. I believe that there probably is alien life out there, but do I go around saying stupid things like "alien life DOES exist"? No.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
"Our Advanced Alien Species, who art in Deep Space, Hallowed be thy Very Large Array... "
That actually has a nice mass-appeal sort of ring to it. Think I could start a religion, get tax exemption and then make a bloated fortune as a "religious leader?"
 

Nebben

Senior member
May 20, 2004
706
0
0
Well, next time be more clear about what you mean, because that is not what you said. What you clearly said is that you have more respect for fundies who believe in creationism than for "half-way there Christians" who don't. You also clearly implied that not believing in creationism implied a lack of knowledge in the Bible, when that is not true at all. The Creation story in the Bible, when taken figuratively instead of literally (and I would argue that a true literal interpretation is a logical impossibility), is not at all at odds with the scientific theory of evolution.

Let's not go into atheism. That's just another faith like Christianity or any other religion. One can no more know that there is not a God than one can know that there is. First, you'd have to define what "God" really is, and good luck with that.[/quote]


Okay, that bit about atheism being a faith pretty much kills any opinion you might have to share with me about it. Atheism, by definition, is nothing more than the lack of belief in a deity.

I see many problems with Catholicism that are independent of other Christian groups, but that really doesn't matter, because I never brought it up and I'm not terribly interested in theological debate about different denominations. I wasn't that interested in it when I was a Christian, and I'm even less interested now.

Basically, the point I was making is that, from my point of view, virtually all denominations of Christianity are illogical. Now, I'm not going to go around telling all of them as such. The pentecostal groups, for example, actually believe in all of the passages that refer to speaking in tongues and other such ridiculous ideas, because it's in the book that they believe to be the "word of God." I think they're nuts, but I also can sort of respect that in a way, because although their world view might be pretty distorted, they're at least being intellectually honest with themselves.
 

Nebben

Senior member
May 20, 2004
706
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

You know, that "relatively small faction of Christians" thing didn't seem quite accurate to me, but I'd never really seen any conclusive information on it. That's a pretty frightening number.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Nebben
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

You know, that "relatively small faction of Christians" thing didn't seem quite accurate to me, but I'd never really seen any conclusive information on it. That's a pretty frightening number.

50% of everyone you meet is dangerously ignorant and probably brainwashed. Wow, no wonder Bush got re-elected in 04.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
I love it when I step away from a thread for a couple of hours and my point is proven for me. Which, in this case, is that the "whack jobs" are a lot more than just the fundie nuts. But what could I have possibly expected from people who think that science is a belief system? (Hint: it's actually a process).

Oh BTW: atheism is by dictionary definition the active disbelief in God, not merely the lack of belief in God. Get your facts straight before you throw rocks from your glass house.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

Yeah, and you've admitted here that you believe in Advanced Alien Species. What's the difference? They got their Young Earth Creationism, you got your Grays in Area 51.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

Yeah, and you've admitted here that you believe in Advanced Alien Species. What's the difference? They got their Young Earth Creationism, you got your Grays in Area 51.

Actually I admitted that I believe in "Advanced Alien Species", not Martin. The difference between me and young earth creationists is that if you ask a creationist whether God exists they will say "Yes", while if you ask me whether intelligent alien life exists I would say "possibly".
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Vic
For example, when SETI seeks to hear voices from beyond the stars, that's "science," but when religous people claim they hear God speaking to them from Heaven, that's "whack job"-ish.

You're confusing two concepts. It is not unscientific to look for alien species, however it is unscientific to claim that they exist.

Let's have a quote from one of SETI's champions:

I'm often asked the question, "Do you think there is
extraterrestrial intelligence?" I give the standard arguments
-- there are a lot of places out there, and use the word *billions*,
and so on. And then I say it would be astonishing to me if there
weren't extraterrestrial intelligence, but of course there is as
yet no compelling evidence for it. And then I'm asked, "Yeah,
but what's your gut feeling?" But I try not to think with my gut.
Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in.
-- Carl Sagan, The Burden Of Skepticism,
The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. 12, Fall 87

Somehow that gets twisted around to become "religion".

I admire Sagan, but he admitted he believed in AAS many times while (just like your quote here) admitting there was no evidence for it. That's a textbook definition for a faith. And what's the argument? "there are a lot of places out there, and use the word *billions*, and so on." That's not scientific (I recall one particular Cosmos episode where he fell back repeatedly on the Drake Equation, pulling various numbers out of thin air). Hell, that's the exact same logic the creationists use to justify their belief in creationism, as I already pointed out in this thread.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

Yeah, and you've admitted here that you believe in Advanced Alien Species. What's the difference? They got their Young Earth Creationism, you got your Grays in Area 51.

I think you're enjoying your Christmas present a bit too much.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

Yeah, and you've admitted here that you believe in Advanced Alien Species. What's the difference? They got their Young Earth Creationism, you got your Grays in Area 51.

Actually I admitted that I believe in "Advanced Alien Species", not Martin. The difference between me and young earth creationists is that if you ask a creationist whether God exists they will say "Yes", while if you ask me whether intelligent alien life exists I would say "possibly".
My apologies to Martin then if I got that wrong (however, I seem to recall something different in a thread from a couple of years ago).
However, the creationist doesn't just say "Yes" as you say, but that he "believes in" or he has "faith in," etc. And that's not far removed from your possibly.
Now, I speculate on the possibility of Advanced Alien Species as well. Just as I speculate on the possibility of the existence of God. It can't be proven nor disproven, so I withhold judgment accordingly. They both make for great intellectual concepts though (seriously).
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: Vic Fundies represent a relatively small faction of Christians even in America, and scarcely exist at all in the rest of the world. Even more to the point, what fundies practice has been considered heresy by orthodox Christianity since the 2nd century AD Text.

About 45% of Americans believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. This is not "relatively small", its "alarmingly huge".

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061110.html

Yeah, and you've admitted here that you believe in Advanced Alien Species. What's the difference? They got their Young Earth Creationism, you got your Grays in Area 51.

I think you're enjoying your Christmas present a bit too much.

And you think that you weren't resorting to Straw Man? Fundies is not necessarily the same as Young Earth Creation believers (or you might explain why, when you posted that to make an unfounded partisan jab, the linked article said that 58% of Democrats polled believe in Creationism).

BTW, I can't view the contents of conjur's link from my home comp at this time (although I'm sure it's one of his usual trolls). I'm a Linux n00b and I haven't figured out how to get shockwave to work yet.
 
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