Kamper starts running in VFFs

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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I specifically avoid wearing these in public unless I am actually RUNNING because I do not want to spend time talking to people about them (willing to online, less interest in real-life unless I sense a genuine interest/openess to the concept). The majority of people think they look ridiculous and I agree wholeheartedly that they do.

Vibram has some trail "shoes" coming out soon called the Bikila. I may try them out, they are the only hope I have of minimalism. I run on some ridiculously rocky/rooty terrain and the protection a trail shoe offers is very important to me.
These are out. 99% sure I saw some 1-2 months ago at Medved in Pittsford. There is a store in fairport that stocks the most VFF of anywhere locally AFAIK. They call them "running" shoes but I and some others think they are moving away from the VFF motto of minimalism because they are starting to introduce a little bit of padding. If you want trail shoes the trek are your ticket because they are twice as thick as KSOs. I have worn my sprints on some trails around here and they are perfectly usable on trails unless the rocks are really sharp. Vibram and some other company are coming out with true trail shoes next year (?) or in the fall and they look a lot more normal I think the toes are even webbed together.
I think I'd only really want them if the soles lasted longer running on the road than the KSOs though and I figure if I can get somewhere in the neighborhood of 400-500km out of these, then they're cost competitive with my regular shoes anyway.
Unless you're really grinding each step 400-500 km is a joke for these shoes, they'll have no problem tolerating those miles.
Some people are recommending ramp ups of up to a year before you can run without shoes as hard as you would with shoes
It's a personal thing and depends on how many miles you ran before.

Don't force yourself heavily on your forefeet. The majority of people in these shoes or barefoot do have heel touch down after the forefoot initially strikes.
I don't really have any idea whether my feet are landing in front of me or under me. I guess I should try recording myself.
No need, they are landing in front as they do for every runner on the planet. Many who don't understand physics think they land under their center of mass (including minimal coaches) but they don't and you'll never see a video of somebody landing under mass; it's always ahead. This is mandated by human movement and physics and completely beyond question.
Are you going to try the Bikila when they hit the shelves?
Man I am doubting myself now but I SWEAR I saw the bikila in a store. I even posted a an impression of them on runnersworld forum.

This guy's been running in his since July: http://www.runnersworld.com/communi...75afPost:40d0ec79-85c7-4ea1-a085-7d2e5915a92c

This guy had his in June: http://www.runnersworld.com/communi...ities/barefoot-running/disappointment-bikilas
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
I had a look at Bikilas in store last weekend (I was traveling in Baltimore). At this point, I don't think they offer any advantages over my KSOs and I'd actually rather not have the slightly thicker sole. I may look at them again when my KSOs need replacing.

It's very hard to get them in my size right now anyway.
 
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RagingBITCH

Lifer
Sep 27, 2003
17,618
2
76
I specifically avoid wearing these in public unless I am actually RUNNING because I do not want to spend time talking to people about them (willing to online, less interest in real-life unless I sense a genuine interest/openess to the concept). The majority of people think they look ridiculous and I agree wholeheartedly that they do.

These are out. 99% sure I saw some 1-2 months ago at Medved in Pittsford. There is a store in fairport that stocks the most VFF of anywhere locally AFAIK. They call them "running" shoes but I and some others think they are moving away from the VFF motto of minimalism because they are starting to introduce a little bit of padding. If you want trail shoes the trek are your ticket because they are twice as thick as KSOs. I have worn my sprints on some trails around here and they are perfectly usable on trails unless the rocks are really sharp. Vibram and some other company are coming out with true trail shoes next year (?) or in the fall and they look a lot more normal I think the toes are even webbed together.Unless you're really grinding each step 400-500 km is a joke for these shoes, they'll have no problem tolerating those miles.It's a personal thing and depends on how many miles you ran before.

Don't force yourself heavily on your forefeet. The majority of people in these shoes or barefoot do have heel touch down after the forefoot initially strikes.No need, they are landing in front as they do for every runner on the planet. Many who don't understand physics think they land under their center of mass (including minimal coaches) but they don't and you'll never see a video of somebody landing under mass; it's always ahead. This is mandated by human movement and physics and completely beyond question.Man I am doubting myself now but I SWEAR I saw the bikila in a store. I even posted a an impression of them on runnersworld forum.

This guy's been running in his since July: http://www.runnersworld.com/communi...75afPost:40d0ec79-85c7-4ea1-a085-7d2e5915a92c

This guy had his in June: http://www.runnersworld.com/communi...ities/barefoot-running/disappointment-bikilas

One of my buddies is slowly starting to run more and more in his Bikalas. (He had the normal KSO's before) He likes it, but just because of the colors more than anything. I don't get the big fuss about the "thicker" bottom - no different than the KSO Trek having a thicker undersole. (Which is what I have)

And totally understand what you mean about the convo starter with it. I actually use it to my advantage if we're heading out to a social event with a lot of single, good looking women. You're married so you don't have to worry about that.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,090
136
Just wanted to stop in to say that I love running in my VFFs; but I don't think I've ever put more than a 5k on 'em at a time. Fun stuff, though.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
Well, the first round didn't last very long My feet are weaker than I might have hoped. The aches from my last run have been very slow to go away and have been costing me training time in my regular shoes.

I'm going to keep the vffs off my feet for at least a week, then do no more than walking in them for a week. After that I will limit my runs to 1k for a while. I'm going to do this still, just real slow.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
Just wanted to stop in to say that I love running in my VFFs; but I don't think I've ever put more than a 5k on 'em at a time. Fun stuff, though.

I really like the feel of it too (when there's no pain). That's part of the reason why I'm sticking with it despite the fact that running in shoes has been working just fine for me.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,090
136
I really like the feel of it too (when there's no pain). That's part of the reason why I'm sticking with it despite the fact that running in shoes has been working just fine for me.

Yep. I honestly go back and forth between my VFFs and running shoes depending on how much distance I'm trying to put on.. but I've actually started wearing my VFFs occasionally for everyday things. Walking around on grass/gravel/whatever is just so fun.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
I had a look at Bikilas in store last weekend (I was traveling in Baltimore). At this point, I don't think they offer any advantages over my KSOs and I'd actually rather not have the slightly thicker sole. I may look at them again when my KSOs need replacing.

It's very hard to get them in my size right now anyway.

Talking to the Vibram folks at the Boston Marathon Sports Expo, the Bikilas have included beef-up parts of the sole to make them more durable than the KSOs.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Are you going to try the Bikila when they hit the shelves?

The Bikilas have been out for a while, all of the CitySports here carry all of the VFF models. They're also available online at their website, REI.com and other places. Not sure if they're going to be trail shoes as they have no toe protection where the Trek's have quite a bit.
 
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kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
Talking to the Vibram folks at the Boston Marathon Sports Expo, the Bikilas have included beef-up parts of the sole to make them more durable than the KSOs.

Interesting. I've seen reports of people getting up to ~1000 miles on them and the soles were not the first thing to go. I'd be plenty happy with anything even approaching that. [Edit: heh, that report was linked in this very thread. I'd forgotten]

More durability is always good though. I've always disliked how normal shoe padding just becomes ineffective at some random point without visible wear. Who's to say the shoe companies couldn't make it last longer if they didn't depend on recurring sales? :evil:
 
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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Talking to the Vibram folks at the Boston Marathon Sports Expo, the Bikilas have included beef-up parts of the sole to make them more durable than the KSOs.
I think I read of a high recall reate in the initial bikilas. One thread said that somebody who went into a store was told by the owner that of the 70 sold 15 had been returned.
Interesting. I've seen reports of people getting up to ~1000 miles on them and the soles were not the first thing to go. I'd be plenty happy with anything even approaching that.
Yeah I think the upper would go first.

And regarding feet pains you can easily take months acclimating to the vffs.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
Well, the first round didn't last very long My feet are weaker than I might have hoped. The aches from my last run have been very slow to go away and have been costing me training time in my regular shoes.

I'm going to keep the vffs off my feet for at least a week, then do no more than walking in them for a week. After that I will limit my runs to 1k for a while. I'm going to do this still, just real slow.

You're doing a much better job than me.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Went to 123shoes in Fairport today, megatomic. For $99 they have a few bikilas, but if you want them you should call first on sizes. Also sprints for $85, classic for $80, KSO for $85, and trek for $125. I think the treks are brutally overpriced.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
I think I read of a high recall reate in the initial bikilas. One thread said that somebody who went into a store was told by the owner that of the 70 sold 15 had been returned.Yeah I think the upper would go first.

And regarding feet pains you can easily take months acclimating to the vffs.

Vibram has had quality control for a while now.

And b/c of their price and quality control, some folks have been going for knock-offs. These in this thread have gotten pretty good reviews - http://www.dealextreme.com/search.dx/search.fivefingers~r.96035782

Thread - http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1006683/

I may try out the classics for $32
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Vibram has had quality control for a while now.

And b/c of their price and quality control, some folks have been going for knock-offs. These in this thread have gotten pretty good reviews - http://www.dealextreme.com/search.dx/search.fivefingers~r.96035782

Thread - http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1006683/

I may try out the classics for $32
How are these things, though? I only read of one knock off thread, a guy on runners world forum and it sounded like his knockoffs sucked.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
You're doing a much better job than me.

Thanks Although I don't have much choice. I should be ramping up a lot right now for my October marathon and being held back sucks more than not being able to run in vffs. If I had no races coming up, I'd probably have a lot less self control.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
I looked at a few Trek reviews and it does have beefier "soles", but I think the Bikila is still, for me, a better Five Finger choice. Thanks for prompting me to look at them again.

This dude ran the Finger Lakes Fifties (miles) this year in treks. I don't know how tough the course was, but you would

It's kinda funny that he ran in FiveFingers
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
I haven't run and have only done a little walking in vffs lately but my feet are more or less healed and I should be getting regular mileage in my shoes again this week.

Getting injured quickly forced me to think a little bit about why I would even try a change, given that I've never really had issues in regular shoes. I figure I may as well record my reasons here...

The first reason is that I like the concept of minimal running. When it comes up in conversation, I pretty much always argue for it (unless I'm talking with someone who is already strongly in favour) but this seems kind of dumb when I haven't tried it myself. If I can make the change, then I have some experience to back up my positions. If I can't, then I'd better rethink them, or at least be aware of caveats.

Secondly, I've always liked less shoe. This has normally been in the form of light, flexible soccer shoes. When I started running, I didn't really realize minimal options were out there and my shoe store basically only carries big shoes. I don't know what I would have thought of racing flats if I'd seen them. I have preferred running shoes with as much mesh on the top as possible and I've disliked large shoes. I once went half a size lower than my usual because the shoe didn't feel snug enough, but this resulted in a lot of discomfort.

Running takes way less equipment than just about anything else. If I can do it without $100+ shoes, then there's even less

Third is that it's sort of a fun challenge. In theory most people should be able to run as well barefoot as with shoes but we can't because our feet are week. It will be kind of neat to be strong enough.

Lastly, it's fun. But I didn't see that coming until I had tried it.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
No running in vffs yet but I'll start with short ones again soon.

A lot of people in the bf/minimalist community advocate doing some real barefooting even if you plan to run in shoes most of the time, because even something as thin as a vff can protect you and hide form issues. I figured what the heck, it can't hurt to at least try, so today after my normal run I did about a half kilometre on my sidewalk. It was alright. I think I'll try it again from time to time for the fun of it, at least as long as the weather's ok.
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
No running in vffs yet but I'll start with short ones again soon.

A lot of people in the bf/minimalist community advocate doing some real barefooting even if you plan to run in shoes most of the time, because even something as thin as a vff can protect you and hide form issues. I figured what the heck, it can't hurt to at least try, so today after my normal run I did about a half kilometre on my sidewalk. It was alright. I think I'll try it again from time to time for the fun of it, at least as long as the weather's ok.

You'd have to be pretty light for VFF's to protect you from bad form. The force of impact set me straight pretty god damn fast about any problems with the way I planted my feet.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
You'd have to be pretty light for VFF's to protect you from bad form. The force of impact set me straight pretty god damn fast about any problems with the way I planted my feet.

I think the distinction is not so much one of where you land on the foot and more one of how you land. Obviously there's no significant padding in a vff and landing on your heel is going to hurt. But, you can still land on your forefoot with your foot slightly out in front of you. Supposedly this still has a bit of a braking effect, but you can't do it barefoot because it's too abrasive, you have to plant your foot straight down without any forward or backward pressure. So generally it's more of an abrasion thing than an impact thing.

At least that's how I understood it. I'm far from an expert in barefoot form, I just figured I'd try it and see what happens.
 

RagingBITCH

Lifer
Sep 27, 2003
17,618
2
76
I haven't run and have only done a little walking in vffs lately but my feet are more or less healed and I should be getting regular mileage in my shoes again this week.

Getting injured quickly forced me to think a little bit about why I would even try a change, given that I've never really had issues in regular shoes. I figure I may as well record my reasons here...

The first reason is that I like the concept of minimal running. When it comes up in conversation, I pretty much always argue for it (unless I'm talking with someone who is already strongly in favour) but this seems kind of dumb when I haven't tried it myself. If I can make the change, then I have some experience to back up my positions. If I can't, then I'd better rethink them, or at least be aware of caveats.

Secondly, I've always liked less shoe. This has normally been in the form of light, flexible soccer shoes. When I started running, I didn't really realize minimal options were out there and my shoe store basically only carries big shoes. I don't know what I would have thought of racing flats if I'd seen them. I have preferred running shoes with as much mesh on the top as possible and I've disliked large shoes. I once went half a size lower than my usual because the shoe didn't feel snug enough, but this resulted in a lot of discomfort.

Running takes way less equipment than just about anything else. If I can do it without $100+ shoes, then there's even less

Third is that it's sort of a fun challenge. In theory most people should be able to run as well barefoot as with shoes but we can't because our feet are week. It will be kind of neat to be strong enough.

Lastly, it's fun. But I didn't see that coming until I had tried it.

You summed up why I stopped running in mine, albeit, I did far more mileage (no slow progression from normal --> minimalist). It is fun, and even funner is barefooting. But unless you have patience to really get into it, it doesn't fit into most runner's schedules.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
0
0
1.5k jogging in vffs last week, about 5k walking yesterday and 0.7k jogging in bare feet today.

No soreness from this afaict. I did more damage to my feet doing my weekend LSD in "old" padded shoes. Having a pair of expensive shoes be unsafe after less than 700k is more motivation to run in vffs.
 

RagingBITCH

Lifer
Sep 27, 2003
17,618
2
76
1.5k jogging in vffs last week, about 5k walking yesterday and 0.7k jogging in bare feet today.

No soreness from this afaict. I did more damage to my feet doing my weekend LSD in "old" padded shoes. Having a pair of expensive shoes be unsafe after less than 700k is more motivation to run in vffs.

Can't say I agree with this post. You can't blame your injuries on shoes. Padded shoes have never been shown to cause or prevent injury, nor have minimalist shoes been proven either. There's a cause and effect for everything - whatever injury you are experiencing is highlighting some weakness in your physiology. The minimalist camp argues that it strengthens all of your feet, ligaments, tendons, etc that weren't previously used. Well, isn't there some underlying root cause for your injury? Something you could be strengthening? I perform plenty of hip strengthening exercises for my ITB issues, use a Trigger Point roller for my legs, etc to cure the issues I had earlier this year.
 
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