Kamper starts running in VFFs

[kamper]

Can't say I agree with this post. You can't blame your injuries on shoes. Padded shoes have never been shown to cause or prevent injury, nor have minimalist shoes been proven either. There's a cause and effect for everything - whatever injury you are experiencing is highlighting some weakness in your physiology. The minimalist camp argues that it strengthens all of your feet, ligaments, tendons, etc that weren't previously used. Well, isn't there some underlying root cause for your injury? Something you could be strengthening? I perform plenty of hip strengthening exercises for my ITB issues, use a Trigger Point roller for my legs, etc to cure the issues I had earlier this year.

I should have expanded a bit more I think. The last two times I have run long distances in these older shoes, I have come away with sore plantar fascia (is that the plural as well?). I don't get this in my newer padded shoes.

I'm not complaining about padded shoes in general causing injuries. I've been injured a lower percentage of the time in padded shoes than in vffs so far But when the padding starts to break down, I am pretty consistently sorer and afaik, everybody experiences this. I'm merely looking forward to the possibility of being able to use a pair of shoes until they actually fall apart. I have 6 pairs of running shoes sitting by the door right now which all look like they are in great shape but I can only really run in 2 of them.

 

[Kirby]

Is there any real science behind these minimalist shoes being better or worse for runners? I need to start running, and my pearl izumis need to be replaced.

 

[kamper]

Is there any real science behind these minimalist shoes being better or worse for runners? I need to start running, and my pearl izumis need to be replaced.

Yes and no. There's a lot of evidence to support the idea that we can run barefoot and high level observations that say that it might make us less injury-prone. Eg. look at existing large populations of shod and unshod runners and compare injury rates (but obviously there are a lot of uncontrolled variables in such a study). If brikis stops by, I'm sure he'll be happy to link to a couple dozen.

As far as I am aware, there hasn't been anything definitive that says that the average western person who has worn shoes most of their lives will benefit directly from ditching the padding and support. The most interesting recent study that I know of was the Lieberman one that carefully measured impact forces of padded and unpadded running. Unsurprisingly, heel-striking has a higher initial spike, but no correlation was drawn between this and actual injury rates (or at least that's what I gathered).

Anecdotally, there are a lot people for whom removing padding relieves a lot of joint pain, but at the same time, there are a lot more people who try out minimalist running and injure themselves because their feet aren't strong enough yet. There are people who have proven it possible to run really long distances barefoot, but probably nobody knows how many people tried minimalism and gave it up because it was too hard or because they got injured.

My personal take is that if you like the idea, or have some issue that you think it might fix, give it a go, but take it very easy when you do. The only thing you can do is to see if it works for you. I don't think it hurts to toy around with it while running the rest of the time in normal shoes; you just wouldn't become accustomed to it as quickly.

 

[Kirby]

Yes and no. There's a lot of evidence to support the idea that we can run barefoot and high level observations that say that it might make us less injury-prone. Eg. look at existing large populations of shod and unshod runners and compare injury rates (but obviously there are a lot of uncontrolled variables in such a study). If brikis stops by, I'm sure he'll be happy to link to a couple dozen.

As far as I am aware, there hasn't been anything definitive that says that the average western person who has worn shoes most of their lives will benefit directly from ditching the padding and support. The most interesting recent study that I know of was the Lieberman one that carefully measured impact forces of padded and unpadded running. Unsurprisingly, heel-striking has a higher initial spike, but no correlation was drawn between this and actual injury rates (or at least that's what I gathered).

Anecdotally, there are a lot people for whom removing padding relieves a lot of joint pain, but at the same time, there are a lot more people who try out minimalist running and injure themselves because their feet aren't strong enough yet. There are people who have proven it possible to run really long distances barefoot, but probably nobody knows how many people tried minimalism and gave it up because it was too hard or because they got injured.

My personal take is that if you like the idea, or have some issue that you think it might fix, give it a go, but take it very easy when you do. The only thing you can do is to see if it works for you. I don't think it hurts to toy around with it while running the rest of the time in normal shoes; you just wouldn't become accustomed to it as quickly.

I'm a heel striker and very flat footed. And actually the taking it slow part is quite appealing, because I'm quite out of shape. I just hate to blow $100 for some goofy ass shoes that I can't use.

 

[kamper]

I'm a heel striker and very flat footed. And actually the taking it slow part is quite appealing, because I'm quite out of shape. I just hate to blow $100 for some goofy ass shoes that I can't use.

It seems that new runners often have an easier time transitioning because lack of conditioning stops you from pushing to the point that you hurt your feet.

Also, you don't have to get vffs to try out minimal running. Some people wear water shoes, some go barefoot, some just buy cheap, thin runners. My aunt runs in $5 sneakers whose soles she claims are thinner than vffs (I haven't seen them myself). She goes through them faster than normal shoes, but at $5, it just doesn't matter.

 

[kamper]

Since last post, I've done 3 short jogs barefoot at around a half km each after a regular run. That doesn't seem to be causing any issues, but I have been getting sore after wearing my vffs for an entire day at the office, which usually includes a couple of kms of walking to/from public transit. It's not bad enough to affect anything though.

My marathon is in 3 weeks so I'm not going to be pushing it at all until that's over. When it is, my plan is still to try a cold turkey switch to barefoot/vff.

 

[kamper]

After another .5 km barefoot today, I have some nice ToFP in my right foot. It's not bad, but it's probably time to take some time off again. I don't think it'll affect my regular running much. This is actually kind of nice, to get relatively quick feedback on soreness, as opposed to last time where it showed up randomly several days after my last vff run. This gives me a chance to pay attention and make necessary changes.

 

[RagingBITCH]

It seems that new runners often have an easier time transitioning because lack of conditioning stops you from pushing to the point that you hurt your feet.

Also, you don't have to get vffs to try out minimal running. Some people wear water shoes, some go barefoot, some just buy cheap, thin runners. My aunt runs in $5 sneakers whose soles she claims are thinner than vffs (I haven't seen them myself). She goes through them faster than normal shoes, but at $5, it just doesn't matter.

I agree with kamper on this - you don't have a 40MPW base built up. Noobies should be able to pick it up quite fast. Go out barefoot just to make sure you like it, or a few pair of socks.

 

[RagingBITCH]

Since last post, I've done 3 short jogs barefoot at around a half km each after a regular run. That doesn't seem to be causing any issues, but I have been getting sore after wearing my vffs for an entire day at the office, which usually includes a couple of kms of walking to/from public transit. It's not bad enough to affect anything though.

My marathon is in 3 weeks so I'm not going to be pushing it at all until that's over. When it is, my plan is still to try a cold turkey switch to barefoot/vff.

What marathon are you running out of curiosity? You're fine with starting over from scratch and a low mileage base? I'm assuming you don't plan on doing any further halves or long distance running for a while?

 

[kamper]

What marathon are you running out of curiosity? You're fine with starting over from scratch and a low mileage base? I'm assuming you don't plan on doing any further halves or long distance running for a while?

http://www.torontomarathon.com/

It's not Toronto's best, that was last weekend. I only ran the half in that one because I didn't feel I had enough time to get ready for it following summer vacation.

I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to handle the sudden reduction in mileage. From a mental perspective, I'll be fine. Running is something I do to stay in shape and to challenge myself, but I'm in no way dependent on it, although I will feel bad if I lose significant conditioning.

I have a couple of options though. I enjoy the occasional long run on the weekends with my parents (usually ~21k when not training for a race) so I will probably still haul out the padded shoes for that from time to time. While the weather is still ok, I can do some biking and I'm considering getting a trainer for indoors over the winter. I will hopefully be playing squash, ultimate and maybe some soccer indoors as well. Last but not least, I intend to switch much of my running energy to workouts that I can do in my apartment. Mostly bodyweight stuff that be done in tabata format to keep up the cardio.

I don't have any races planned until next spring. It's been nearly 2 years since I have done any race shorter than a half marathon and I know my times over shorter distances have improved a lot since then. So I figure what makes sense is to focus on 5-10k races for at least the spring of next year as I should be able to do them in vffs by that time. After that, I will assess how the transition is going and what route I want to take. If I stay with vffs, then I'll consider returning to half marathon+ distances in the fall.

 

[mizzou]

Are these sprint-worthy?

 

[kamper]

Are these sprint-worthy?

Yeah, sure. In fact, they're probably better than your average runners, since they're much lighter. In addition, when you sprint, you (hopefully) naturally shift to a forefoot landing with your heel only touching lightly, if at all, which is just the sort of thing that vff running encourages. It may be my imagination, but the few times I've tried pushing myself over shorter distances in regular runners, I've found the thick heel to be detrimental. (I say it might by my imagination because I'm a little messed up form-wise right now. Mentally, I'm involuntarily switching to forefoot/midfoot even though I'm nowhere near there yet physically).

However, if you're thinking about these for your upcoming test (something like 3 weeks from now, iirc), I'd advise against it. Unless you're used to running with no padding, that isn't enough time to transition and you're likely to hurt yourself.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Vibram has some trail "shoes" coming out soon called the Bikila. I may try them out, they are the only hope I have of minimalism. I run on some ridiculously rocky/rooty terrain and the protection a trail shoe offers is very important to me.

Found this review that compares the Bikila and Treksport - http://birthdayshoes.com/close-up-review-vibram-five-fingers-trek-sport

 

[kamper]

Ok, ran my marathon on sunday with great success (race report in the 50k thread if you're interested) and now it's time to devote a little more time to a transition.

I have not run in my vffs for over a month, but I have been keeping up about a half km per week barefoot. My plan for the moment is to drop the padded-shoe running altogether and do 3 runs per week, with at least one rest day between each. I will start off barefoot at about 1km per run (did my first this morning) and gradually increase from there. When the weather gets too cold, I will go back to my KSOs, and when snow shows up, I will probably grab a pair of Flows, or some other thin-soled shoe.

When I was running in my vffs, I was doing 2-3km runs and I was running pretty much every day in trainers. I'm hoping that now the combination of shorter distances and actual rest time for my feet will allow me to go injury free.

I haven't fully convinced myself that I want to really cut down to such a small amount of running so I'm contemplating a couple of shoe options to supplement barefoot running. One would be to run in my normal trainers but really make an effort to stay on the midfoot or forefoot. I doubt though that I'll be able to keep good form.

Another option is to get some racing flats. It seems most of these types of shoe don't last very long at all though. From what I can gather online, there are some with a good reputation for durability (eg Mizuno Wave Universe 3, Saucony Kilkenny) but I have no idea where I could go to try these on before buying.

Then there's the option of a padded shoe that is at least close to having a 0 drop which should help with form. Saucony Kinvaras look like a potential option here although they're kind of expensive. Also, given that the bottleneck to a minimalist transition is probably foot strength, the padding means that these won't help much. Maybe I'd be better off just focusing on unpadded running for now and either taking the loss in cardio or finding another activity like biking. I dunno.

At any rate, I'll probably pop in here roughly weekly to log mileage and any interesting developments.

 

[kamper]

I never thought I'd become one of those hippies that runs completely barefoot. However, having been injured once from doing Too Much Too Soon, it does seem like a convenient way to force myself to run slower and less distance. I consider it akin to the whole idea of ditching trainers: I'm not convinced it's the best thing to do, but the idea is neat and it seems to be doable, so why not give it a shot?

 

[abaez]

I have some Bikila's coming in today. I'm kind of excited because I've wanted a pair of VFF's for so long and finally plunged. We'll see how they are.

I'm a little worried about everyone saying they went up to the larger size as I ordered the size that the website recommended exactly instead of a little bigger.

 

[kamper]

I'd never buy vffs without trying them on first. That rule goes for just about any shoe for me, but more-so for vffs because they hug your foot so closely. That said, assuming you like the shoe and it's only the size that's an issue, the worst thing that can happen is that you pay a little extra for shipping an exchange pair right? Hopefully if your first pair doesn't fit, you can guess the correct size in one attempt.

 

[Paleo]

Terra Plana is another option for going minimal

http://www.terraplana.com/index.php

They have a video on going barefoot

 

[kamper]

Yup, terra plana is very well regarded in the minimalist running community. They're minimal enough (from what I read) that I wouldn't consider running longer distances on them until my foot strength is up but I'm definitely considering them as a winter shoe. There's a new Evo II out that is supposedly water proof which might be good for bad weather running. The nice thing about that over a vff is that you can use normal socks to stay warm.

However, I can't find anywhere to try them on and they aren't the cheapest shoes in the world I might consider ordering online and erring on the side of too large though.

 

[abaez]

So I got the Bikilas and tried them on. They fit very snug, but not tight. All of my toes fit perfect, but my big toe is just slightly cramped. I'm thinking that will stretch out and be fine, but I'm worried that the pressure there will loosen the seam over time?

And I just saw that Vibram only has a 90 day warranty.. so I'm unsure if I want to exchange them. I'm seeing that one size up is about 1/2 inch bigger, which would seem to be way too big (at least for my non-big toes). I don't want to walk around in them too much in fear of them saying they've been used... not sure what to do..

 

[kamper]

Based on your description, I'd say probably keep them. My big toe is a little snugger than I'd like, but a size up was much too big I thought (read the OP and the ensuing short conversation with brikis98 for details). I have not experienced any discomfort directly as a result of the shoes being snug although I can't guarantee that any general soreness I've felt isn't related to the fit. To determine that, I'd probably have to regularly wear a pair of both sizes. But I suspect the fit is fine.

I'd get out there and wear the bikilas as much as possible. There have been a number of reports of manufacturing defects, so you probably want to expose any issues as soon as possible to make sure you're still covered should there be any.

 

[abaez]

Yeah, I will keep them. I will be doing my Crossfit workouts with them, so any defects should show up pretty quick. Can't wait!

 

[abaez]

So I worked out in them. Did some sprints and jump rope and some kettlebell thrusters.. they worked great, but I think my left one is too tight. My right feels good. I don't know what to do now that I've worn them. I guess just hope that the left one stretches out.

 

[silverpig]

Just to chime in, I've had VFFs for several months and generally like them. I can get by with anything under 16km (10mi) and after that my calves start to fatigue and I start to hit with my heels a bit harder. After about 20km my ankles and knees start to get pretty sore. For shorter (<10km) distances, I really enjoy them.

I do also have a pair of Nike frees which I like for the most part, and definitely like for longer distances. I'll likely be doing VFFs on the treadmill and for short runs outside, and frees for longer distances.

 

[kamper]

Is the distance limit in vffs something you feel you could push farther out if you worked on it? I wouldn't be too disappointed with that myself, although I'd probably take the pain on race day for a half marathon.