Kansas votes for Intelligent Design

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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
It is never a good idea to try to make an argument from authority on an internet forum. I do not like discussing my educational background over forums, as it means nothing and only my logic can hold any real meaning here. I agree with you that my metaphors were not very apt, I am afraid that I was never very talented as a creative writer. I should have avoided it.
What I was trying to point out was that as a body of evidence for a theory grows so does the reliability of that theory.
If you do not think that evolution has a strong body of evidence supporting it, I suggest you take some courses in genetics, anthropology, or microbiology (or specifically immunology or parasitology) as these fields is where you will find the application of the theory.

I am not sure why you would say that. Originally 'Internet Forums' were exactly for that purpose, statements from authority.
Yes, and it was a wonderful time for educational institutions. But then the endless september came....

I have no idea why one would have a problem discussing one's educational background, and logic only answers are exactly why there are most of the problems with the whole science vs. religion debates (as indicated in previous posts above).
Because it can mean nothing. I do not know you, and all I can know about you is what you write here. You could claim to be Darwin himself, and only logic could tell me otherwise. The only proper way to judge an argument that is for all practical purposes posted anonymously is to judge it based on its logic.

Also I never said I didn't think evolution theory did not have a strong body of evidence, however; it is a part of science that has some issues. Also there are some Creationists that still believe in evolution, and some that do, but do not think it applies to man.
One of the main problems is people want to say that by accepting evolution you are accepting the non-existance of God(s), the two arguements are mutually exclusive...but always tend to be lumped together.

The issues it has have are not based on its scientific merit, but instead on emotional response to it. It seems obvious to me that evolution does not deny the possibility of God, nor the possibility of his diect will in the process. All evolution does is give us an understanding of the methods of the process, but can never tell us why.

I have already had courses in the topics you have suggested...but I didn't hear much on evolution in them. However; in my Comparative Anatomy and Physiology courses the topic was almost entirely on evolution and would have been a better example.
I find the first part of your statement suprising I can not imagine how you would teach microbiological adaptive behaviour with out discussing evolution, and I just didn't didn't think about comparitive anatomy class when I wrote my post but it is an exellent point.

I have no doubt that evolution happens. However; the theory to prove that all things evolve has a lot of room to solidify.
Yes, in the same way that the theory of gravity has a long way to prove that all matter attracts.

The main problem comes from proving it on more complex animals (including man) as these changes cannot be monitored directly in even the course of several lifetimes.

But there are still lots of evidence for it: Fossil records, wisdom teeth, appendix, sickle cell anemia?

 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81
Starting from next year, all students from Kansas must pass a entrance exam in Biology before taking Biology 101. Any students who do not pass must take Biology 10 (pre-Biology) prior to enrolling in Biology 101.

Owned.
 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81


I think you got it backward. In a world of evolution, hot girls got laid and raped more often and produce more offsprings of hot girls. Ugly ones don't get laid and their DNA extincted.

The loving God create girls with imperfection so we would not be superficial, and teach us to look past outer beauty.

The existence of both kinds neutralized your theory.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Because it can mean nothing. I do not know you, and all I can know about you is what you write here. You could claim to be Darwin himself, and only logic could tell me otherwise. The only proper way to judge an argument that is for all practical purposes posted anonymously is to judge it based on its logic.

What does logic have to do with knowing if someone is stating facts. Whether a scientific article is published under a pseudonym or not, the facts should represent themselves. However; authority or not, one should do their own research in to a subject to verify the facts presented. Nothing to do with logic really.

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
I find the first part of your statement suprising I can not imagine how you would teach microbiological adaptive behaviour with out discussing evolution, and I just didn't didn't think about comparitive anatomy class when I wrote my post but it is an exellent point.

You are now bringing in a special topic in microbiology. In that there may be discussion on evolution. However, in general, Micro, genetics, and anthropology are not focused on evolution. This was my point on education. People muddy up an topic with items that have no direct relation although sound plausable.

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
But there are still lots of evidence for it: Fossil records, wisdom teeth, appendix, sickle cell anemia?

The appendix and wisdom teeth are poor evidence for evolution. The appendix actually has functions still and removal of it increases chance of certain diseases. Wisdom teeth come under the debate that our diets have changed to the point where the reason may be improper jaw development causing the third molars crowding.

If there was some focus on the subject, a discussion could be more through, but if one is going to keep on bringing side issues and unrelated/distantly related topics the debate becomes impossible.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
But there are still lots of evidence for it: Fossil records, wisdom teeth, appendix, sickle cell anemia?

The appendix and wisdom teeth are poor evidence for evolution. The appendix actually has functions still and removal of it increases chance of certain diseases. Wisdom teeth come under the debate that our diets have changed to the point where the reason may be improper jaw development causing the third molars crowding.

So, if wisdom teeth WERE proof of evolution and times past (very big IF), does that mean those people who still have room for them are not as far along in the evolutionary scale? lol jk

I just find it amazing that anyone can look at the universe and say that it happened by "chance" or that things "evolved" this way or that it has "always been around" - obviously things left to themselves rot, decay, etc, not get better. And if your answer is the big bang, well, what caused it to go boom? For every effect there has to be a cause, right?

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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
So, if wisdom teeth WERE proof of evolution and times past (very big IF), does that mean those people who still have room for them are not as far along in the evolutionary scale? lol jk
Evolution is not necessarily linear.

I just find it amazing that anyone can look at the universe and say that it happened by "chance" or that things "evolved" this way or that it has "always been around" - obviously things left to themselves rot, decay, etc, not get better. And if your answer is the big bang, well, what caused it to go boom? For every effect there has to be a cause, right?
I find it amazing that after all the discussion that has been posted on this, in this form, in this thread, you STILL think that evolution has anything at all to do with the question of whether there is a God.

I find it amazing that you ask where did the universe come from and show incredulity at the idea that it has 'always been around' but think nothing of useing that same answer to the question of where God came from.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
pat robertson..... proof positive against the intelligent design bullsh!t...

i'm a christian and i think he's done more than enough to drag God's name through the mud. he might as well be the president of the united states.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Originally posted by: nakedfrog

How do you know they were created by a male god? Maybe it was a female god who likes hot lipstick lesbians?

And really, who doesn't like lipstick lesbians?

who cares? the real question is who is that "male God"-created broad? she's pretty damn google image search-worthy
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
So, if wisdom teeth WERE proof of evolution and times past (very big IF), does that mean those people who still have room for them are not as far along in the evolutionary scale? lol jk
Evolution is not necessarily linear.

I just find it amazing that anyone can look at the universe and say that it happened by "chance" or that things "evolved" this way or that it has "always been around" - obviously things left to themselves rot, decay, etc, not get better. And if your answer is the big bang, well, what caused it to go boom? For every effect there has to be a cause, right?
I find it amazing that after all the discussion that has been posted on this, in this form, in this thread, you STILL think that evolution has anything at all to do with the question of whether there is a God.

I find it amazing that you ask where did the universe come from and show incredulity at the idea that it has 'always been around' but think nothing of useing that same answer to the question of where God came from.

As I said on the first part, I was joking

The reason why I have no problem using the same answer about where God came from is this: God would not be God if he was not eternal. Matter is not eternal. There is a difference between God and matter. That is the reason.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,650
203
106
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Originally posted by: nakedfrog

How do you know they were created by a male god? Maybe it was a female god who likes hot lipstick lesbians?

And really, who doesn't like lipstick lesbians?

who cares? the real question is who is that "male God"-created broad? she's pretty damn google image search-worthy


Sohpie Moone
 

dandruff

Golden Member
Jan 28, 2000
1,407
6
81
makes me wanna move ... i am pretty sure with this move the white trash rednecks will get their NASCAB Hall of Fame ...
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
So, if wisdom teeth WERE proof of evolution and times past (very big IF), does that mean those people who still have room for them are not as far along in the evolutionary scale? lol jk
Evolution is not necessarily linear.

I just find it amazing that anyone can look at the universe and say that it happened by "chance" or that things "evolved" this way or that it has "always been around" - obviously things left to themselves rot, decay, etc, not get better. And if your answer is the big bang, well, what caused it to go boom? For every effect there has to be a cause, right?
I find it amazing that after all the discussion that has been posted on this, in this form, in this thread, you STILL think that evolution has anything at all to do with the question of whether there is a God.

I find it amazing that you ask where did the universe come from and show incredulity at the idea that it has 'always been around' but think nothing of useing that same answer to the question of where God came from.

As I said on the first part, I was joking

The reason why I have no problem using the same answer about where God came from is this: God would not be God if he was not eternal. Matter is not eternal. There is a difference between God and matter. That is the reason.

People that do not fully understand the debate nor topics will try to say that for a God(s) to exist they must match up to the same laws that another is discounting.

The main problem is this...if there is indeed the classic type of God, they would be unbound by anything else 'they' created. Basic laws of physics, chemisty, time, etc do not apply to them. From a scientific standpoint this defies their core beliefs and is hard to wrap one's head around.

No matter how you cut it, religion and belief is purely faith until whatever Creator is out there (if they do exist) makes a significant personal appearance to enough people to be deemed fact. Then more than likely proof will still be limited to direct observation. I doubt any core of tests would declare such an entity 'real' without those tests having to be re-designed due to their own rules being destroyed. Remember though this is hypothetical. There is also god discussion where 'God' is just a normal man that discovered the ability to recreate themself (cloning of the mind and body) and became super-human due to hundreds of thousands of years of learning and being reborn. This God...may not be the first 'creator', but then also is outside the 'God' vs Evolution debate as well, however; is part of the typical NWO and secret society type stuff a la the 'X Files'. However, many people still don't believe cloning is real, many people don't think we have been on the moon yet either.

My thought is should God, Jesus, Mohammed, Allah, Yehveh, Jehovah, Budda, et al come forward the general people will try to kill them first.


 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
So, if wisdom teeth WERE proof of evolution and times past (very big IF), does that mean those people who still have room for them are not as far along in the evolutionary scale? lol jk
Evolution is not necessarily linear.

I just find it amazing that anyone can look at the universe and say that it happened by "chance" or that things "evolved" this way or that it has "always been around" - obviously things left to themselves rot, decay, etc, not get better. And if your answer is the big bang, well, what caused it to go boom? For every effect there has to be a cause, right?
I find it amazing that after all the discussion that has been posted on this, in this form, in this thread, you STILL think that evolution has anything at all to do with the question of whether there is a God.

I find it amazing that you ask where did the universe come from and show incredulity at the idea that it has 'always been around' but think nothing of useing that same answer to the question of where God came from.

As I said on the first part, I was joking

The reason why I have no problem using the same answer about where God came from is this: God would not be God if he was not eternal. Matter is not eternal. There is a difference between God and matter. That is the reason.

People that do not fully understand the debate nor topics will try to say that for a God(s) to exist they must match up to the same laws that another is discounting.

The main problem is this...if there is indeed the classic type of God, they would be unbound by anything else 'they' created. Basic laws of physics, chemisty, time, etc do not apply to them. From a scientific standpoint this defies their core beliefs and is hard to wrap one's head around.

Those that do fully understand this will tell you that before the big bang there was not time, no laws of physics. The laws of physics only apply to the observable universe, what ever came before that will have existed under completely different laws that we have no way of knowing. The argument for an eternal universe is the exact same for an eternal god, and that is my point. Theist like the one above attempt to claim that the universe MUST have a beginning because everything must but then turn around and say that God does not need a beginning. The scientific answer to that is that not everything must have a beginning, because the concept of beginning requires that there be a time before it begun and there is no such thing as before the big bang because there was no such thing as time. Theists want to, for some reason, equate eternity to intelligence, as if it is self evident that an inanimate thing could not possible be eternal but a self aware one could.

Oh, one other thing. Matter is eternal. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change form. All matter that ever existed will continue to exist forever.

 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Those that do fully understand this will tell you that before the big bang there was not time, no laws of physics. The laws of physics only apply to the observable universe, what ever came before that will have existed under completely different laws that we have no way of knowing. The argument for an eternal universe is the exact same for an eternal god, and that is my point. Theist like the one above attempt to claim that the universe MUST have a beginning because everything must but then turn around and say that God does not need a beginning. The scientific answer to that is that not everything must have a beginning, because the concept of beginning requires that there be a time before it begun and there is no such thing as before the big bang because there was no such thing as time. Theists want to, for some reason, equate eternity to intelligence, as if it is self evident that an inanimate thing could not possible be eternal but a self aware one could.

Oh, one other thing. Matter is eternal. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change form. All matter that ever existed will continue to exist forever.

I seriously don't understand your points and you are making a slew of them.

If you choose to believe in a diety...your last point probably wouldn't apply to them.

You keep bringing up the 'Big Bang'...however; that is not the focal point either.

 
Aug 27, 2002
10,043
2
0
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Public education in the hands of religious freaks, be afraid, be very afraid.
nah, it's been in the hands of idiots who think darwin is right for a long time. I have yet to see any real proof of his "theory". I've seen a lot of things disproving it though.

don't worry, the tree huggers will step in soon enough and they'll be teaching that the world sprouted from an acorn after a squirel farted.
 
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