Kashmir's independence

[The Green Bean]

Before anyone starts Pakistan bashing, this is a thread the discuss the possibility of Kashmir's independence from all the three entities presently controlling it (India, Pakistan and China).

The recent violence in Indian occupied Kashmir is an obvious signal of the unhappiness of the people there with Indian aggression. The police is now openly killing protesters. Many have been raped and killed before but to do this openly is unacceptable.

India claims to be the biggest democracy in the world. Isn't the meaning of democracy the rule of the people? Shouldn't a referendum decide the fate of Kashmir's people. Even on legal terms, India has no right to rule Kashmir. That is why it has constantly been blocking this discussion at the U.N by saying it's a bilateral issue.

I don't think that the Kashmiris would accept Pakistani rule at this time. If it's independence they want, that's what they should get.

I also think this issue is a major issue for India and the region itself. Billions have been spend on arms races in the region because of it. Thousands have been killed. I know that independence for Kashmir may trigger nationalist movements already alive in both; India and Pakistan to grow even bigger but I feel Kashmir is a different issue. The fact that three sovereigns are involved and that none can justify total control legally, militarily and economically all at once.

I know Pakistan is going through a rough patch economically, and in terms of foreign relations and security butt I don't think it will ever give up it's part of Kashmir to India. I don't think India will ever accept the LOC as the permanent border. I don't think the Kashmiris would be happy with that anyways.

 

[atreader]

The current Kashmiri's aren't the real Kashmiri's. So where are the original Kashmiri's? What would they want? :\

I like the Kashmir song by J Page.

 

[The Green Bean]

The current Kashmiri's aren't the real Kashmiri's. So where are the original Kashmiri's? What would they want? :\

I like the Kashmir song by J Page.

That's like saying the current Americans aren't real Americans. What do the Native Americans want to do?

 

[Zorkorist]

We could outlaw Religion.

Would that help?

-John

 

[cirrrocco]

When is Baluchistan gonna get independence. What about the ahmediyas / christians and Shias. When are they gonna get independence from the pakjabi army state called Pakistan.

Give them independence first and then talk about Kashmir.

 

[The Green Bean]

When is Baluchistan gonna get independence. What about the ahmediyas / christians and Shias. When are they gonna get independence from the pakjabi army state called Pakistan.

Give them independence first and then talk about Kashmir.

There is a difference between Bolochistan, ahmediyyas etc etc and Kashmir.

1. India has no legal basis to occupy Kashmir. It's an occupation. No legality either by succession or by referendum. Balochistan is legally a part of Pakistan. The insurgency there is lead by a few elitist groups unlike Kashmir and I don't think a referendum for "independence" would get more than 20% of the vote.

2. Ahmediyyas, chrisitians and Shiahs are a religion not a nationality. I myself am a Shiah and so our many of my cousins in India. They face a lot more discrimination in Mumbai just because they are Muslims than I face because I am a Shiah back here. Nobody asks whether I'm a shiah or not. Religion and sectism plays a far lesser role than the American media makes you believe.

3. Pakistan is not an army state. It's the most powerful institution but unlike banana republics no one (except corrupt politicians) is actually scared of the army. Most people like the army. Also, army service is voluntary.

4. The only thing holding the American states is economics and in my opinion if your economy collapsed you would have armed insurgencies against the federal government. There is already growing resentment of the federal government favoring richer states and bailing out large companies but it hasn't been bad enough for people to take up arms. However this is another matter.

 

[The Green Bean]

We could outlaw Religion.

Would that help?

-John

Religion maybe one of the main issues here but it is not the main issue. Race and nationalism play a far greater role in politics here than religion. There would be a conflict between Hindus and Muslims but it is not because of their beliefs it is because of other issues. The slogan of "Islam" was raised by Pakistan to get wider support just like the Americans raised the same against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It worked for you because you were many thousands of miles away but now this pseudo-Islam is just hurting us.

I think everything comes down to economics. I believe that if every individual in the world was richer than a certain threshold, there would be very little violence in the world. I believe that the underlying causes because of which Kashmiris feel oppressed are in many ways economic.

 

[Taejin]

India > Pakistan

 

[The Green Bean]

India > Pakistan

That just shows how ignorant you are. And if it was supposed to funny it was not. Maybe you should stop posting in PnN.

 

[Moonbeam]

When the saucers land the world will suddenly all become one race.

 

[DesiPower]

India legally acquired Kashmir when it was formed but Pakistan was never happy about it.
For the first 30 or so years it was peaceful was a major tourist place. After fighting two wars with India, Pakistan finally realized they were no match for the Indian army and cannot do anything about it. Thats when they started infiltrating Kashmir and posing as Kashmiri pll and inciting violence. It was fully funded by Pakistani army and ISI (for which India has several proof but the rest of the world turns a blind eye towards it). Slowly the beloved patriot army and ISI started killing the natives (pundits) just caz they were not Muslims and wanted peace and drove all of them out of there, they are all settles now in Jammu Himachal and Punjab area.

Now Pakistan wants it to be a separate state, says that "Kashmiri ppl" want it but the reality is that the majority of ppl living there are not the original natives AND everyone know whats going to happen if they get Independence - Pak will be the proxy govt and launch continuous terrorist attacks from there. There is the mountain range in the middle, once they get control of the eastern region, they can set up a permanent militant base there. India, obviously does not want to give up any land on the eastern side. An independent Kashmir will be a nightmare for India. Pakistanis have been crossing over during the summer months and creating enough terror attacks just imagine if they can live there and not have to cross terrorists and arms and ammunition across the mountain anymore...

 

[tinker2141]

India legally acquired Kashmir when it was formed but Pakistan was never happy about it.
For the first 30 or so years it was peaceful was a major tourist place. After fighting two wars with India, Pakistan finally realized they were no match for the Indian army and cannot do anything about it. Thats when they started infiltrating Kashmir and posing as Kashmiri pll and inciting violence. It was fully funded by Pakistani army and ISI (for which India has several proof but the rest of the world turns a blind eye towards it). Slowly the beloved patriot army and ISI started killing the natives (pundits) just caz they were not Muslims and wanted peace and drove all of them out of there, they are all settles now in Jammu Himachal and Punjab area.

Now Pakistan wants it to be a separate state, says that "Kashmiri ppl" want it but the reality is that the majority of ppl living there are not the original natives AND everyone know whats going to happen if they get Independence - Pak will be the proxy govt and launch continuous terrorist attacks from there. There is the mountain range in the middle, once they get control of the eastern region, they can set up a permanent militant base there. India, obviously does not want to give up any land on the eastern side. An independent Kashmir will be a nightmare for India. Pakistanis have been crossing over during the summer months and creating enough terror attacks just imagine if they can live there and not have to cross terrorists and arms and ammunition across the mountain anymore...

So a radical Islamist nation will do anything to further expand its influence and regain what THEY believe is rightfully theres? Who woulda thunk it.

 

[DesiPower]

There is a difference between Bolochistan, ahmediyyas etc etc and Kashmir.

1. India has no legal basis to occupy Kashmir. It's an occupation. No legality either by succession or by referendum. Balochistan is legally a part of Pakistan. The insurgency there is lead by a few elitist groups unlike Kashmir and I don't think a referendum for "independence" would get more than 20% of the vote.

Neither does Pakistan, kashmiri ppl were not unhappy until Pakistani army stared insurgency in 70s. Mind you won business and leave Kashmir alone and problem will be solved.

2. Ahmediyyas, chrisitians and Shiahs are a religion not a nationality. I myself am a Shiah and so our many of my cousins in India. They face a lot more discrimination in Mumbai just because they are Muslims than I face because I am a Shiah back here. Nobody asks whether I'm a shiah or not. Religion and sectism plays a far lesser role than the American media makes you believe.

if you are part of secular India no one discriminates against you, if you show your unhappiness and keep expressing yourself as different from the rest of India then yes no one will like you. there are lots of Muslims in India in very prestigious positions and holding high offices. Muslims in India enjoy more freedom then they do in many Muslim countries. If you are a bigot the whole world will be a bigot.

3. Pakistan is not an army state. It's the most powerful institution but unlike banana republics no one (except corrupt politicians) is actually scared of the army. Most people like the army. Also, army service is voluntary.

When pak got independence thy got same amount of money from England as India, but population was much less. All Pak ever invested in was Army to occupy Indian, Pak got some of the most fertile land but never used it properly. You are a failed state and its only our fault.

 

[nick1985]

India > Pakistan

 

[tinker2141]

India > Pakistan

:thumbsup:

 

[Lemon law]

As somewhat somewhat neutral on the various Kashmir issues, I could certainly endorse Kashmir independence as a seemingly eminently fair solution.

But the facts are and remain, the Kashmir issues are a huge bone of contention between Pakistan and India, and its crucial to get some sort of final resolution to the Kashmir questions. The risks are too great otherwise.

 

[Jaskalas]

India > Pakistan

I have to agree, but relevance? Surely you wouldn't be suggesting that we get to decide such things in Asia. Which case our favoritism matters not.

 

[nick1985]

I have to agree, but relevance?

There is no relevance, the OP is a troll so why bother with a serious reply? The OP bashes the US every chance he gets, but when Pakistan got flooded who was posting on here begging for US aid? Yep, Green Bean. Fuck that guy. At least he could stick to his guns and not beg for US aid. I wouldn't piss on him to put him out.

 

[The Green Bean]

Neither does Pakistan, kashmiri ppl were not unhappy until Pakistani army stared insurgency in 70s. Mind you won business and leave Kashmir alone and problem will be solved.

That's what Pakistan is proposing to do.

if you are part of secular India no one discriminates against you, if you show your unhappiness and keep expressing yourself as different from the rest of India then yes no one will like you. there are lots of Muslims in India in very prestigious positions and holding high offices. Muslims in India enjoy more freedom then they do in many Muslim countries. If you are a bigot the whole world will be a bigot.

That's why actors and even MPs don't get housing and are discriminated against. : http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?663649[/quote]

There are many hindus, christians and sikhs who hold important offices and sports positions in Pakistan as well even though they make up less than 2% of the population and the state relgion of Pakistan is Islam.

Indian muslims make up close to 15%.[/quote]

When pak got independence thy got same amount of money from England as India, but population was much less. All Pak ever invested in was Army to occupy Indian, Pak got some of the most fertile land but never used it properly. You are a failed state and its only our fault.

India is not doing much better than Pakistan in its rural areas. This is not an India vs Pakistan thread so don't make it one.

 

[The Green Bean]

There is no relevance, the OP is a troll so why bother with a serious reply? The OP bashes the US every chance he gets, but when Pakistan got flooded who was posting on here begging for US aid? Yep, Green Bean. Fuck that guy. At least he could stick to his guns and not beg for US aid. I wouldn't piss on him to put him out.

nick you are an idiot so fuck off.

 

[nick1985]

India vs Pakistan

India by a landslide

 

[The Green Bean]

India legally acquired Kashmir when it was formed but Pakistan was never happy about it.
For the first 30 or so years it was peaceful was a major tourist place. After fighting two wars with India, Pakistan finally realized they were no match for the Indian army and cannot do anything about it. Thats when they started infiltrating Kashmir and posing as Kashmiri pll and inciting violence. It was fully funded by Pakistani army and ISI (for which India has several proof but the rest of the world turns a blind eye towards it). Slowly the beloved patriot army and ISI started killing the natives (pundits) just caz they were not Muslims and wanted peace and drove all of them out of there, they are all settles now in Jammu Himachal and Punjab area.

Now Pakistan wants it to be a separate state, says that "Kashmiri ppl" want it but the reality is that the majority of ppl living there are not the original natives AND everyone know whats going to happen if they get Independence - Pak will be the proxy govt and launch continuous terrorist attacks from there. There is the mountain range in the middle, once they get control of the eastern region, they can set up a permanent militant base there. India, obviously does not want to give up any land on the eastern side. An independent Kashmir will be a nightmare for India. Pakistanis have been crossing over during the summer months and creating enough terror attacks just imagine if they can live there and not have to cross terrorists and arms and ammunition across the mountain anymore...

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict

 

[nick1985]

nick you are an idiot so fuck off.

Awww poor baby. Got called out on your hypocritical act? Stings, don't it?

 

[The Green Bean]

There is no poit to this thread. Most people here are arrogant bigots.

 

[nick1985]

Most people here are arrogant bigots.

Starting with yourself. Look in the fucking mirror