kaveri bf4 good performance?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Xpage

Senior member
Jun 22, 2005
459
15
81
www.riseofkingdoms.com
bandwidth constraints have killed the last 2 generations though i am surprised AMD did not do a eDRAM as a temporary fix, gues sthey though DDR was going to launch on schedule. AMD did have GPU plus interposers and memory 3 years ago, just cost too much still i guess.

Still 16mb edram would be very nice to have as a large cache. Though i am not sure what size edram would be best to use for price/performance
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
Adding edram is a pointless exercise because you're still short of a cheap discrete GPU in performance while driving up costs, compare the $650 Iris Pro versus an el cheapo discrete, its left in the dust. Thus, for HTPC builds or a light gaming rig, its inferior.

Why Apple choose to go with it is beyond me, because once you game on it, power load is massive and the MBP is no longer "mobile". Its only purpose appears to be in ultra thin platforms where adding a discrete option is iffy, but these aren't suited for gaming due to a) low battery life due to smaller batteries (I'm not talking surfing or watching a movie stream, gaming loads is vastly more power usage), and b) ill-suited to dissipate 60-70W of thermals. When we get into notebook sized platforms, a discrete with a much cheaper NV/AMD GPU will blow it away in performance.

APUs currently have two "big niche" market: HTPC rigs and cheap rig that does everything as well as decent gaming. Adding edram drives up costs and low cost is the major reason for the existence of this market.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Adding edram is a pointless exercise because you're still short of a cheap discrete GPU in performance while driving up costs, compare the $650 Iris Pro versus an el cheapo discrete, its left in the dust. Thus, for HTPC builds or a light gaming rig, its inferior.

Why Apple choose to go with it is beyond me, because once you game on it, power load is massive and the MBP is no longer "mobile". Its only purpose appears to be in ultra thin platforms where adding a discrete option is iffy, but these aren't suited for gaming due to a) low battery life due to smaller batteries (I'm not talking surfing or watching a movie stream, gaming loads is vastly more power usage), and b) ill-suited to dissipate 60-70W of thermals. When we get into notebook sized platforms, a discrete with a much cheaper NV/AMD GPU will blow it away in performance.

APUs currently have two "big niche" market: HTPC rigs and cheap rig that does everything as well as decent gaming. Adding edram drives up costs and low cost is the major reason for the existence of this market.

i7 4750HQ 3.2Ghz with Iris Pro is listed at 440$(468$ for the 3.5Ghz CPU with it.). i7 4702MQ 3.2Ghz is listed at 383$. Thats a 57$(85$) premium for having an IGP that is close to 750M level. Iris Pro is simply cheap and brilliant.

There is no 650$ Iris Pro listed at Intels site.

EDIT: 57$ difference.
 
Last edited:

LogOver

Member
May 29, 2011
198
0
0
In addition, recomended prices for desktop chips with Iris Pro:
4770R - $392
4670R - $310
4570R - $288
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
i7 4750HQ 3.2Ghz with Iris Pro is listed at 440$(468$ for the 3.5Ghz CPU with it.). i7 4702MQ 3.2Ghz is listed at 383$. Thats a 85$ premium for having an IGP that is close to 750M level. Iris Pro is simply cheap and brilliant.

There is no 650$ Iris Pro listed at Intels site.

either trollin' or has a wildly different understanding of the word cheap...
the only brilliant thing about iris is that it took them no time at all to develop a counter to amd's gpu prowess...
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
either trollin' or has a wildly different understanding of the word cheap...
the only brilliant thing about iris is that it took them no time at all to develop a counter to amd's gpu prowess...

What does a GT750M+GDDR+battery+PCB+cooling and other size related issues cost?

There have been alot of FUD about Iris Pro cost from people that forget to do the research.

If AMD doesnt settle their conflict of interest between the CPU division an the GPU division. Then IGP is another lost oppotunity.
 
Last edited:

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Price is in line with performance. High performing parts are not cheap. The best mobile AMD APUs perform much worse with worse battery life, and the price is adjusted to cheap levels accordingly because of this. If AMD had a chip that had similar CPU / GPU performance and decent battery life, would it be cheap? Probably not, but AMD doesn't have a mobile chip that can compare to Iris Pro.

The only interesting AMD APUs are LGA desktop parts, the mobile parts thus far haven't really delivered at all. Maybe the newer parts can deliver, we'll see. I'll reserve judgement when they're released.
 

386user

Member
Mar 11, 2013
66
0
16
im sure on low everything at 720 you could have playable multiplayer

this walking down an empty hallway test means nothing
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
Price is in line with performance. High performing parts are not cheap. The best mobile AMD APUs perform much worse with worse battery life, and the price is adjusted to cheap levels accordingly because of this. If AMD had a chip that had similar CPU / GPU performance and decent battery life, would it be cheap? Probably not, but AMD doesn't have a mobile chip that can compare to Iris Pro.

The only interesting AMD APUs are LGA desktop parts, the mobile parts thus far haven't really delivered at all. Maybe the newer parts can deliver, we'll see. I'll reserve judgement when they're released.

so because the mobile parts aren't as powerful as iris they "haven't really delivered at all."
need I remind you that in comparison to pre-iris igps that the amd's 35W apu was competing nicely with intel hd4600 -on even the desktop version. Also are you really gonna say that 50-80W[load] iris pro toting skus will use less power than an amd a10?

aside: this is a BS response but amd does have a counter to iris pro, that is the apu in the ps4...
 

Pilum

Member
Aug 27, 2012
182
3
81
either trollin' or has a wildly different understanding of the word cheap...
He's right as far as the costs on Intels side are concerned. Crystallwell is 80% of the die size of Bay Trail -> lowest Bay Trail list price $37 -> Crystalwell adds some $30 actual list price if calculated with Bay Trail margins. OEM costs will be lower.

However, Intel can't currently price Crystalwell like that, because they have limited 22nm capacity and Crystalwell competes with production of all leading-edge CPU products. So they have to keep demand low by keeping prices high. Once 14nm productions gets going Intel should have more capacity for Crystalwell production, so Broadwell may have more Iris Pro SKUs. List prices will probably remain high, so that Intel can control demand by offering attractive pricing only to selected OEMs.

Once Intel reaches the massive capacity expansion of 450mm wafers a solution like Crystalwell could go mainstream, but that won't happen prior to 2016. I'd expect that AMD will have some form of embedded RAM for their APUs by then, so Intels advantage will be less or may be negated completely. Comes down to price/perf/W for CPU/GPU, too many variables to judge the outcome for that far into the future.

the only brilliant thing about iris is that it took them no time at all to develop a counter to amd's gpu prowess...
As Crystalwell is a full CPU/GPU L4 cache, they must have planned uncore integration pretty much from the beginning. Crystalwell seems to use part of the L3 cache as tag array for the L4: even the highest-end Iris Pro SKUs have only 6MiB, in contrast to the 8MiB of the standard i7s. The cache and uncore need to be designed to support that. And they must have had the technology under development and testing for some time before feeling ready to integrate that into shipping product and be certain that the performance increases will be worth the effort. So Crystalwell must have been under development for at least four years or so. This isn't a stop-gap measure, but long-term product strategy.

If you want to paint the technology in a bad light, I'd recommend the occasional performance degradation in CPU workloads. In the AnandTech review, x264 2nd pass showed a performance regression of 4.5%. But be sure not to mention that CB 11.5 was up 9.5%, 7Zip +5.1% and x264 1st pass +5.9%.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
EDIT: Actually, I don't want to get an infraction for a "call out". Stuff it.
 
Last edited:

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
Now, fresh start for Kaveri discussion? Yeah?

Sounds like a good plan.

I'm curious about the Boost clocks we'll see. Hawaii has seen AMD take a very different approach to managing GPU boosting, and I suspect that a similar tech will show up in Kaveri given that it is based on the same "GCN1.1" cores. Kabini's boost was very disappointing in general (and mostly absent), and I hope we don't see a repeat.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
106
Considering that even AMD doesnt know what clocks top Kaveri will turbo to ATM, we should leave them out of the table when discussing performance so we dont have a innecesary dissapointment
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
3,764
4,223
136
I hope the iGPU can clock up higher than 720Mhz via Turbo (for games naturally) and that IMC can support 2400Mhz memory modules. You can buy 8GB 2400Mhz dual channel kit on newegg for ~75 bucks today (team xtreme LV). That memory could be a perfect fit for Kaveri.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
106
Richland moved the turbo to be more aggresive on the CPU than the GPU. Hopefully SR improvements help AMD go back to make turbo be more aggresive on the GPU side.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
Richland moved the turbo to be more aggresive on the CPU than the GPU. Hopefully SR improvements help AMD go back to make turbo be more aggresive on the GPU side.

Just one question guys: It's clear that Kaverid didn't reach the intended clocks, but it seems that the GPU bore the brunt of the cuts, 10% of the CPU against 20% of the GPU. What are your guesses for that?
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
Just one question guys: It's clear that Kaverid didn't reach the intended clocks, but it seems that the GPU bore the brunt of the cuts, 10% of the CPU against 20% of the GPU. What are your guesses for that?

TDP constraints or maybe with the available bandwidth, clocking the gpu that high wouldn't be worth the negative hit [PR] a relatively higher TDP would incur?
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
Found this article about BF4,Kaveri and Mantle's projected performance impact.

Thanks for the article. Very sobber opinion from an AMD exec. The desktop strategy, their value proposition and a reasonable expectation of performance gainst with Mantle.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
TDP constraints or maybe with the available bandwidth, clocking the gpu that high wouldn't be worth the negative hit [PR] a relatively higher TDP would incur?

Nah, they got the 220W hit already, so going, let's say, 110 or 120W wouldn't be that bad.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
Has AMD disclosed what sort of clock boosting Kaveri will have? Given the work done on their discrete GPUs Powertune I'd expect some advancements in that area.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
It's probably a combination of both 28nm process limitations and available bandwidth. That 512-core GPU is very beefy for an APU, and clocking it any higher would just cause it to bounce off bandwidth limitations even harder than current APUs do already. AMD is very good at getting the most out of their nodes though, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a Richland-like refresh a year after Kaveri is released.

Can't wait to build an HTPC outta one of these chips!
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
TDP constraints or maybe with the available bandwidth, clocking the gpu that high wouldn't be worth the negative hit [PR] a relatively higher TDP would incur?

Seems likely. Richland already gobbles up all available memory bandwidth. In fact memory bandwidth has a far higher effect on performance then extra MHz on the core. Also note that while the top end (6600K/6700/6800K) Richland graphics is clocked at 844MHz, the original Trinity's where only clocked at 760MHz (800MHz for the 5800K), so we might just be seeing the effect of the new manufacturing process.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |