Kentucky GOP lawmaker commits suicide after sexual abuse allegations...

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
What very funny is in police shootings where the individual dies and civilian fatal car accidents where a civilian kills another civilian, as a society we overwhelming believe the story of the non-dead guy. It's not even close. If you run someone over with a car where there are no witnesses, pretty much if you claim he stepped out of no where or did anything unusual, 90% chance you're getting off without a trial. The same goes for police shootings that are unwitnessed. In our society being dead is a pretty crappy defense.

As it happens, that's why I think the justice system has an in-built bias favouring motorists over cyclists or pedestrians. There have been many high profile cases of motorists getting away with driving into people on the flimisiest of excuses (and then blaming the victim) because only one party to the event is still there to tell their story (as a cyclist I have found myself noticing those cases).

Absent reversing the burden-of-proof, there ought to be far more legal duties and restrictions placed on those who operate lethal machinery of any kind in public places, and more done to physically keep them away from their potential victims and to monitor their actions, because there's an inherent problem with trying to get justice after the event.

Probably something similar could be said about police shootings. With great power comes great responsibility.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,006
14,550
146
The Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting (KCIR) reported and debunked several claims made by Johnson about his life and ministry, including that he helped set up "safe zones" to protect people from the 1992 Los Angeles riots, that he served as White House Chaplain (a non-existent position) to Presidents George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, and that he had been an ambassador to the United Nations.[2] While Johnson received workers' compensation benefits from the state of New York, KCIR found no credible evidence of Johnson's claims that that he set up an impromptu morgue near Ground Zero in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks and administered last rites to those pulled from the rubble for two weeks.

This guy was a real piece of work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Johnson_(Kentucky_politician)
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
The Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting (KCIR) reported and debunked several claims made by Johnson about his life and ministry, including that he helped set up "safe zones" to protect people from the 1992 Los Angeles riots, that he served as White House Chaplain (a non-existent position) to Presidents George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, and that he had been an ambassador to the United Nations.[2] While Johnson received workers' compensation benefits from the state of New York, KCIR found no credible evidence of Johnson's claims that that he set up an impromptu morgue near Ground Zero in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks and administered last rites to those pulled from the rubble for two weeks.

This guy was a real piece of work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Johnson_(Kentucky_politician)


So did a gun help do a service or disservice to America here?
 

AMDisTheBEST

Senior member
Dec 17, 2015
682
90
61
LOL
No such drama in my country which is as authoritarian as fascist Germany. Such news would instantly killed by censor. I thank my university for the 1gb per second internet and the American 1st amendment for posting stuffs I would not dare back home.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Guilty or Innocent, the man was clearly in that position. His life was ending one way or another. It meets unbearable and incurable pain.
Disagree. Losing one's elected position is NOT equal to one's life ending. Being accused of something heinous is NOT equal to one's life ending. A man with a family has an obligation to stand up to unjust and untrue allegations for their sake. A man with a family has an obligation to LIVE for their sake. Suicide is simply a cop out.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
There's always going to be such a thing as shame, people will always feel it or impose it on others, because, I guess, it's part of human nature.

But I'm saying I think it's just not a sufficiently precise instrument to rely on as a means of creating a moral order. It's too haphazard in how much people are predisposed to feel it, and it gets assigned mostly based on the basis of the crowd's entirely unexamined prejudices - which are going to be biased, slightly random, and, perhaps most-of-all, not consciously thought-through. I'd like moral judgements to operate via something more rational and conciously-designed, personally.
I'm speaking solely of internal shame, not crowd-based shame. Shame assigned by the mob might well be exactly backward to moral thinking, as in a fifties realtor who sells a neighborhood home to a black family. The mob would shame him for that act, when in reality he should feel ashamed to not sell them the house. Mob-based shame is akin to this suicide, who (assuming by his reaction that he is guilty as charged) SHOULD have felt far too much shame at his actions to run for office, but instead felt shame only when everyone learned what he had done. (Not just rape, and not even necessarily rape since he might well be innocent of that particular charge, but certainly all the things he had lied about doing at the very least.)
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Thanks for the reply. It seems you've thought things out a bit more. I'd like to share how I see it, which is a little more complex and hopefully not too technical.

  • I think a lot of times we perceive that a person does not feel shame when nothing could be farther from the truth. They feel intense shame, so intense that they have to defend against it in a variety of ways which disavow the shame. If this is the case, more shame will certainly not ever provoke them to take ownership of it. It might provoke them to invoke an even more primitive defense, which could be dangerous.
  • Shame and guilt are different. Shame is more primitive and is the way young'ns learn to modulate their behavior based on fear conditioning before they have a well-developed sense of who they are, right and wrong, and much of a sense of ability to appreciate the outside world and act within it. Because it relates to a time where a person hasn't developed independent agency or morality, their experience of it is simply stimulus/response conditioning. Of course a serial groper is not ashamed that he groped the women, he's ashamed that everybody knows he groped them. As healthy people develop, they learn to internalize the reactions they get from the outside world and take them on as parts of themselves. So a healthy person is able to be ashamed of themselves because they've incorporated the response from others into themselves. An unhealthy person may have serious deficits here, and chances are a serial rapist isn't a very mentally healthy person when it comes to shame.
  • I believe what you would like offenders to experience is guilt. Guilt develops after shame and comes from a time where someone has learned to control their basic impulses, learned to appreciate that their minds operate independently from those around them, learned to have some degree of a cohesive sense of self, learned to separate reality from fantasy, and learned to understand right from wrong. A person who experiences guilt has hope of appreciating the intense wrongness of their actions without it threatening their hold on their sense of integrity, autonomy, and reality.

I don't believe society has made shame taboo. I believe society is actually promoting shame more than ever. I think they are trying to make it taboo, however, to shame people who are innocent. Of course, one of the primary mechanisms this is done is by shaming the people who are guilty.

I think the basic behavior is splitting. We tend to identify one victim and one perpetrator. In that split, the victim is all good and bears no responsibility for what happened and the perpetrator is all bad and bears all responsibility for what happened. This is not to say that we should blame victims or let offenders off the hook. The danger of such a harsh split is reinforcing the notion that a victim bears no responsibility for escaping their victimhood and that the perpetrator has no hope of maintaining humanity.

Unfortunately, something about human nature is that a lot of people who are perpetrators are unable to see themselves as anything other than victims. And a lot of people who are victims are unable to see themselves as anything other than perpetrators. If society doesn't help people feel like it's OK to be a bit of both at the same time, then bad people who don't think they're bad will never get their due, and neither will good people who don't think they're good.
I did think about this over the weekend. I have no basic problem with your splitting of shame and guilt, though that's not something I've seen before. (Not a lot of time spent on shame vs guilt in engineering school, although we do get ethics classes.) Likewise, I see nothing wrong in general with seeing people as some of both victim and perpetrator. Quite often people who are perpetrators of crimes were first victims (in broad senses) of circumstances beyond their control. I think though that from a legal sense the two must be as thoroughly separated as is practical. Sometimes the two are inseparable, such as someone starting a fight and then getting stabbed being a mixture of victim and perpetrator. But where possible I prefer to see them separated. Thus, a young girl wearing revealing clothing and exercising poor judgment in flirting or going to a certain party would have contributed to her circumstances, but I think you would agree is in no sense a perpetrator of the rape (statutory or otherwise) that follows. Similarly, the man who rapes her, while no doubt influenced by her behavior or appearance, is in no way a victim of her behavior or appearance. For that matter, I'm not entirely comfortable with accepting that everyone is some mixture of victim and perpetrator. In the case of this GOP lawmaker, I would have hoped that guilt over his actions (again, assuming they are true) would have made him feel disqualified to be a lawmaker in the first place, as he had apparently made no redressement for his actions. THAT is where I was going. Instead, we see that he felt justified in becoming a leader, and only felt guilt (at least to the degree that he felt compelled to do anything about it) once his actions became publicly known. Where I think we are failing as a society is instilling that very private sense of right and wrong, that doing wrong should bring a sense of great shame or guilt regardless of whether it ever becomes known.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
I'm speaking solely of internal shame, not crowd-based shame. Shame assigned by the mob might well be exactly backward to moral thinking, as in a fifties realtor who sells a neighborhood home to a black family. The mob would shame him for that act, when in reality he should feel ashamed to not sell them the house. Mob-based shame is akin to this suicide, who (assuming by his reaction that he is guilty as charged) SHOULD have felt far too much shame at his actions to run for office, but instead felt shame only when everyone learned what he had done. (Not just rape, and not even necessarily rape since he might well be innocent of that particular charge, but certainly all the things he had lied about doing at the very least.)

It's not something I've thought about in great depth or researched, but my initial reaction, is that I am unconvinced that the distinction you refer to, between internal and crowd-based shame, actually exists. Where else do our ideas about shame come from other than external society? Mediated through quirks of biology (there always being the possibility that psychopathy has some genetic or other biological factor), or idiosyncratic experiences, possibly.

Which is why in different societies people feel shame about different things. Shame seems like an inherently inter-personal and hence social phenomenon.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,097
38,652
136
The Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting (KCIR) reported and debunked several claims made by Johnson about his life and ministry, including that he helped set up "safe zones" to protect people from the 1992 Los Angeles riots, that he served as White House Chaplain (a non-existent position) to Presidents George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, and that he had been an ambassador to the United Nations.[2] While Johnson received workers' compensation benefits from the state of New York, KCIR found no credible evidence of Johnson's claims that that he set up an impromptu morgue near Ground Zero in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks and administered last rites to those pulled from the rubble for two weeks.

This guy was a real piece of work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Johnson_(Kentucky_politician)

I like that people in Kentucky investigated and busted this fraud. Piece of work indeed though, damn.
 
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