Kentucky School Shooting

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Jan 25, 2011
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Well. At least the leader of the country has expressed his sympathies for those affected by this tragedy. Sure the country was Canada but that still counts right?

Justin Trudeau‏Verified account @JustinTrudeau
I’ve spoken with Kentucky’s @GovMattBevin to offer condolences on behalf of Canadians for today’s shooting in Benton. Our hearts go out to Kentuckians, and to all those affected by this tragedy.

2:16 PM - 23 Jan 2018
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I bet on average, AR15's kill less people in America per year than pencaps. I don't get why the anti-2A side is so obsessed with something that is statistically quite benign.

It's pretty simple: guns are designed to kill, and they're not necessary in modern civilian life. People don't design pen caps, or cars, or most other objects to hurt other people. A pen cap certainly doesn't kill 58 people and injure 851 in the space of 10 minutes.

For reference: reportedly, about 100 people die from choking on pen caps every year. About 84 people died from semi-auto rifles in the US in 2016, but that figure is likely to be considerably higher for 2017 courtesy of Las Vegas and other mass murders. And again, there's a big difference between accidentally choking on a pen cap and intentionally murdering dozens of people.
 

compcons

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,202
1,228
136
The right to defend yourself is, the Bill of Rights codifies natural rights. Bad guys have guns and have them even when they are outlawed from good guys that follow the laws, like in gun-free zones. I bet this school was a gun free zone. How'd that work out?

I don't have time to find the thread (it was regarding the Wall), but someone (and I am NOT implying it was SS) made the argument that the wall may not stop all illegal immigration, but if is better to do SOMETHING than NOTHING even if it doesn't completely solve the problem. And here we have the exact opposite stance: If it doesn't fix it completely, DO NOTHING. I really don't understand some people's inability to see their own, personal contradiction based on their party beliefs.

EH
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
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The right to defend yourself is, the Bill of Rights codifies natural rights. Bad guys have guns and have them even when they are outlawed from good guys that follow the laws, like in gun-free zones. I bet this school was a gun free zone. How'd that work out?

If there truly is a God, this is also a freedom-loving smoke-free school zone.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,597
26,709
136
Well. At least the leader of the country has expressed his sympathies for those affected by this tragedy. Sure the country was Canada but that still counts right?

Justin Trudeau‏Verified account @JustinTrudeau
I’ve spoken with Kentucky’s @GovMattBevin to offer condolences on behalf of Canadians for today’s shooting in Benton. Our hearts go out to Kentuckians, and to all those affected by this tragedy.

2:16 PM - 23 Jan 2018

In contrast:

  1. Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 6h6 hours ago
    Tremendous investment by companies from all over the world being made in America. There has never been anything like it. Now Disney, J.P. Morgan Chase and many others. Massive Regulation Reduction and Tax Cuts are making us a powerhouse again. Long way to go! Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!

    16,617 replies17,928 retweets74,436 likes

  2. Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 13h13 hours ago
    Cryin’ Chuck Schumer fully understands, especially after his humiliating defeat, that if there is no Wall, there is no DACA. We must have safety and security, together with a strong Military, for our great people!

    34,757 replies26,797 retweets106,169 likes

  3. Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 14h14 hours ago
    Where are the 50,000 important text messages between FBI lovers Lisa Page and Peter Strzok? Blaming Samsung!
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Laws don't always work so we shouldn't have laws? Does that also apply to immigration?

That isn't the point. We need the laws for the penalties often, not because they stop things. But we need to be mindful of lawful gun owners that are not criminal and do not want anything to do with criminal activity.... you know, some 99.99999% of gun owners. But we also have to be realistic about if the law will have any practical effect and how to better go about things if not.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
It's pretty simple: guns are designed to kill, and they're not necessary in modern civilian life. People don't design pen caps, or cars, or most other objects to hurt other people. A pen cap certainly doesn't kill 58 people and injure 851 in the space of 10 minutes.

For reference: reportedly, about 100 people die from choking on pen caps every year. About 84 people died from semi-auto rifles in the US in 2016, but that figure is likely to be considerably higher for 2017 courtesy of Las Vegas and other mass murders. And again, there's a big difference between accidentally choking on a pen cap and intentionally murdering dozens of people.


So you're hung up on what something is intended for (based on your opinion), vs how many bodies are put into the ground. I'm sure that's very comforting for the parents burying their child that choked to death.

And as I said, on average per year semi-auto guns kill fewer than pencaps. Yet you anti-2A'ers pretend like AR15's are some giant evil that must be stopped.

Lastly, who the F*** are you to tell me what is necessary in my life? Imagine that mentality extended to other things partisan thinkers feel strongly about. No way.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
It's entirely fair to say that the reason gun rights were so important to our founding fathers is no longer the same. If a constitutional amendment came to limit guns in part or whole, I would vote for it. And yet I would not support action against them other than within the scope of limitations that have already been done. Equalizing the laws and enforcing them better would make a difference. Otherwise, I think we've already made compromises in the public interest with our interpretation of the 2A that don't fit with my reading of its text.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
So you're hung up on what something is intended for (based on your opinion), vs how many bodies are put into the ground. I'm sure that's very comforting for the parents burying their child that choked to death.

And as I said, on average per year semi-auto guns kill fewer than pencaps. Yet you anti-2A'ers pretend like AR15's are some giant evil that must be stopped.

Lastly, who the F*** are you to tell me what is necessary in my life? Imagine that mentality extended to other things partisan thinkers feel strongly about. No way.

Yes, actually, it makes a goddamn difference. All innocent deaths are tragic, but there's a difference between an accident and intentional murder. Accidents can be reduced, but are difficult to completely avoid; murders are always avoidable. Gun violence is a mistake we can fix. Tell the parents of the Sandy Hook victims that their kids' deaths were no different than an accident and see if you make it out of the room alive.

And if you really think a gun is necessary in your life, tell me: are you living in the wilderness, and the only way to get enough food to eat is to go on hunting trips? Are you in such a dangerous area that there's a constant threat that you'll be murdered or robbed, and the police can only provide limited help? If the answer to both is "no," then no, you don't need a gun. This isn't some partisan spin; I mean you literally don't need a gun in the same way you don't need a Starbucks venti latte or a trip to Bermuda. There are people who need guns, but they're few and far between in modern society. Your desire to go to the shooting range doesn't constitute a need.

To clarify: I don't object to the right to own a gun. What I object to is this notion that many people 'need' guns, especially guns that are clearly not for self-defense.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,146
4,844
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murders are always avoidable.
I disagree in that the victims don't always have any options to escape their killers. The folks who've been gunned down in these recent mass shootings had no idea of the carnage that was coming until they'd been consumed by it.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I disagree in that the victims don't always have any options to escape their killers. The folks who've been gunned down in these recent mass shootings had no idea of the carnage that was coming until they'd been consumed by it.

What I'm thinking is more about the attackers. The Vegas shooter didn't 'accidentally' murder 58 people, and certainly wasn't forced to do ti.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
Well. At least the leader of the country has expressed his sympathies for those affected by this tragedy. Sure the country was Canada but that still counts right?

Justin Trudeau‏Verified account @JustinTrudeau
I’ve spoken with Kentucky’s @GovMattBevin to offer condolences on behalf of Canadians for today’s shooting in Benton. Our hearts go out to Kentuckians, and to all those affected by this tragedy.

2:16 PM - 23 Jan 2018
To be fair - Trump did tweet about it.... an hour ago.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
So you're hung up on what something is intended for (based on your opinion), vs how many bodies are put into the ground. I'm sure that's very comforting for the parents burying their child that choked to death.

OK, it is my opinion that the Chinese did not develop gun powder and a means to propel small objects forcefully, at great distance--nor have the world's militaries refined this technology, at billions billions of dollars over the centuries...for the purpose of sending these projectiles into paper plates or tin cans.

do you have an alternate opinion that somehow manages to oppose the actual march of history and centuries of R&D?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Well. At least the leader of the country has expressed his sympathies for those affected by this tragedy. Sure the country was Canada but that still counts right?

Justin Trudeau‏Verified account @JustinTrudeau
I’ve spoken with Kentucky’s @GovMattBevin to offer condolences on behalf of Canadians for today’s shooting in Benton. Our hearts go out to Kentuckians, and to all those affected by this tragedy.

2:16 PM - 23 Jan 2018

Seriously why? Do leaders from around the world send thoughts and prayers at the nonstop bloodbath going on in the inner cities of America? These one-offs are statistical noise in the context of that. I thought at first that this might be a white middle class lives matter more thing..... then it finally clicked.... it was a media pimping mass murder for profit thing....
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
Hey now, if it's a high chance that it was a white person that did it...it's best not to speculate.

We got kids killing kids and your step 1 is to make it some irrelevant racial bullshit?

Youre a straight up idiot.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
Seriously why? Do leaders from around the world send thoughts and prayers at the nonstop bloodbath going on in the inner cities of America? These one-offs are statistical noise in the context of that. I thought at first that this might be a white middle class lives matter more thing..... then it finally clicked.... it was a media pimping mass murder for profit thing....

Well there's some difference between people getting gunned down in the streets and people getting gunned down at school.
Obviously both result in a loss of life/injury, but in most cases people being shot/killed in the streets have often put themselves in that situation for whatever reason (drugs, gangs, physical disagreement etc).
When a kid goes to school for the day, they generally are not provoking violence upon themselves.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
2,615
136
The right to defend yourself is, the Bill of Rights codifies natural rights. Bad guys have guns and have them even when they are outlawed from good guys that follow the laws, like in gun-free zones. I bet this school was a gun free zone. How'd that work out?
The bill of rights doesn't codify self defense. In fact no where in the second amendment is there anything about self defense. There's stuff about well trained organized militias and protection of states against a tyrannical government but there is nothing in there about personal self defense. Even more interesting we know that armed insurrection and rebellion against the federal government in this country is incredibly illegal which goes directly against the second amendment which allegedly protects it (you will still hang for armed insurrection even if you claim your second amendment rights till the very end)

Personal self defense is a natural right but it's not actually codified in our bill of rights though most countries actually do specifically codify self defense in their constitutions. Instead in ours there is a codification of state level self defense and people have extrapolated (fairly recently actually like in the last 30 years in the courts) personal self defense stuff from the 2nd amendment.

Personally I think the bill should have said there is a right to personal and state level self defense but leave the gun issue as a states right issue to define and legislate. But that's just my opinion and I don't blame the writers of the Constitution for not imagining the eventual existence of nuclear bombs, assault rifles, grenades and etc
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
So it took 24 hours for someone in the WH to figure out the optics were horrible when he was tweeting at Samsung over text messages? Best people, only the best freaking people!

Well, if I had to bet any amount of money on it, based on how it is written, this is one of those tweets that is not by his hand.
What a shit-ass job that has to be - you're Trumps Twitter fluffer? Cripes.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,597
26,709
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We got kids killing kids and your step 1 is to make it some irrelevant racial bullshit?

Youre a straight up idiot.

I think it is more a reaction of straight up disgust over the fact that these events happen on a regular basis. There will be no meaningful discussion of the event or even agreement that actions should be taken to reduce the likelihood of such events in the future if it involves doing anything about the US being the most armed nation in the world.

Basically we have in these threads:

1. Its too soon to talk about it because you're trying to politicize a tragedy. (Its never the right time)
2. Its the price we pay for freedom
3. If the shooter is a white guy - Lone Wolf
4. If the shooter is a person of color - Terrorist (representing their entire race/nation/religion)
5. Its still too soon to talk about it.
6. Something about smoking
7. Something about pen caps
8. Send thoughts and prayers

So yeah, after about 50 of these threads people are pretty fucking disgusted and jaded.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,597
26,709
136
Well, if I had to bet any amount of money on it, based on how it is written, this is one of those tweets that is not by his hand.
What a shit-ass job that has to be - you're Trumps Twitter fluffer? Cripes.

I have to agree, the vocabulary used is beyond Trump's usual tweets.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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There is a lot of information out there supporting the idea that mass media coverage only helps to fuel the issue. You can usually find articles supporting that on the same site running 24/7 shows and articles with big scary fonts and headlines about the shooting.



https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/11/mass-shootings-body-counts-media-1/



https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...cas-mass-shooting-epidemic-contagious/545078/

To me it seems like people have long had access to firearms but there seems to be a growing trend of mass shootings indicating that firearms alone are not the cause. Good luck getting anyone to focus on anything but the guns though

The thing is, yes, there absolutely are other factors at play, causing the increase and severity in these types of attacks. But saying having ready access to guns doesn't play a major role in enabling them is ignoring a factor as well. Lots of other places in the world have many of the same factors, yet because they've restricted guns, they do not regularly have mass shootings. And when mass shootings do occur there, they generally don't have a political party that refuses to take part in anything (discussion, let alone serious study) that links guns to gun violence. They do good investigation and then look at how to address what led to that situation and then actually try to implement the changes. Does it magically prevent such attacks from ever happening? Of course not, but it sure as hell has strongly limited them.

I feel that it's a mental illness. Not in the sense that the perpetrator should have been institutionalized even before the incident. And perhaps not even one their born with, but one they develop from the thoughts they have and its allowed to consume them. It comes from upbringing, and it's 100% the parents' fault in every case.

When a kid is able to plan something like this out and is able to obtain the weaponry to follow through with such plans, and the parents have no idea that it's going on, no idea that their 15 year old child has guns and ammunition in their bedroom, there is something seriously wrong in their household.

Being involved enough in your child's life to have their trust to tell you what's bothering them, and to guide them through the troubles they are experiencing in school, and ultimately to pick up on the warning signs is the key to stopping these things. Unfortunately, not everyone should have children.

I get what you're saying. And right, its not necessarily an outright established mental disorder, but I mean, its a madness that is unfathomable. I don't agree with the second part of that. Sorry, I won't say its 100% the parents' faults. I'm not saying they're blameless, but after dealing with my nephews, I can absolutely see how many parents (especially single parents, or even ones where both parents are having to work a lot) could miss a shitload of questionable behavior. Which, hell, I remember being a shithead teenager, and while I'd go back and kick my own ass plenty, I won't condemn everything as being indicative of anything other than immaturity. And I've known people that were shitty when they were younger (and not always because of abuse or other problems, sometimes its the opposite, like they had wealthy family with no real issues, but they just were immature and so were able to get away with shit) and turned into fine adults. And sadly too many that were vice versa, although most people I've known are, well they're not terrible, but they're not saints either.

I can largely agree with that, although a couple of slight caveats. First, sadly, there's still a lot of American households where a 15 year old having a gun and ammunition in his room isn't cause for any concern until the moment it is. The second one is that psychopaths are really good at hiding in plain sight. Many are outgoing, personable, even charming. They're able to put on a front. I'm not saying that's what these are, I'm just saying its a potential factor. They could be sweet around their parents, get ok grades, and otherwise present nothing alarming for the parents to cause them to look into. And, again, after dealing with my teenage nephews (not saying they're psychopaths, but they can be shitheads at times), I can tell you they're not above hiding shit quite well or doing other stupid shit that just leaves you shaking your head when you find out. Hell, even after there has been a concerted effort to keep tabs on them because of said behavior, they still find ways to surprise us with new shit. Thankfully nothing too terrible, but enough to cause consternation with them over pointlessly dumb behavior.

I fully agree with that. But I also know teenagers do not like that, for the most part in general. I didn't like when my family would pry into things. I wasn't up to anything, but I just wanted my own space and they wouldn't understand things (I don't mean in the typical "whaaaa, my mommy and daddy don't understand me!" teen angst, but more, like explaining projects I was working on at school and things like that). But they, and especially my Mom, did ask and she did check up, and that alone was meaningful and I knew even at the time she meant well. And she knew my friends and girlfriends and the like. And we do the same with the kids in the family. Of course it helps when its not just keeping tabs but because you genuinely care too.

It's pretty simple: guns are designed to kill, and they're not necessary in modern civilian life. People don't design pen caps, or cars, or most other objects to hurt other people. A pen cap certainly doesn't kill 58 people and injure 851 in the space of 10 minutes.

For reference: reportedly, about 100 people die from choking on pen caps every year. About 84 people died from semi-auto rifles in the US in 2016, but that figure is likely to be considerably higher for 2017 courtesy of Las Vegas and other mass murders. And again, there's a big difference between accidentally choking on a pen cap and intentionally murdering dozens of people.

Have you seen the "tactical pens" and other shit that companies catering to gun nuts are making these days?

Just look at the marketing going on in gun magazines. Considering the NRA has continually tried to place the blame for this type of shit on the media, yet they openly court that type of hysterical irrationality in their own marketing and advertising, just tells you everything you need to know about their integrity. They are actively breeding this mentality and then demanding that others take responsibility for it.
 
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