Keyboard that will reconize more than 2 keys at a time

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
Hi guys, so i want a new keyboard. My current/now destroyed board seems to only recognize 2 keys at a time. Example say im holding ALT to be crouching in a game i can still use one movement key to move but then if im holding say the back key and the ALT key to make sure i dont fall out a window no other keys will work, i cant say reload, change weapons, whatever without releasing one of the keys. This really pisses me off, like alot, like to the point i threw my keyboard into a wall and splintered it into pieces last night and am now using a PS/2 fujitsu from 12 years ago(which also will only give me two keys at a time, sometimes 3 depends on the keys.

So what keyboard can i get that will recognize at least 5 preferably 7 or so keys being pressed at a time?

EDIT to add price doesnt really matter, will spend up to $200 if i have to, dont care if i need to buy a mechanical KB thats as loud as a 1940's typewriter as long as i can press more than 2 keys at a time and have it work.
 
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corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
Super Moderator
Mar 4, 2000
27,370
239
106
Key combinations normally do not exceed 3 keys, eg., Ctr+Alt+Del. Can you provide an example of one requiring 4 or 5 keys?

I've never used a keyboard that would not honor a 3 key combo.

Your description sounds like you might need a real gaming keyboard, such as the Logitech G15 or G19.

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboard/devices/3498
 
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bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Gaming keyboards are often advertised with an "anti-ghosting" feature, and its there to advertise the ability to press multiple keys, and while it has to do with what they're advertising, its not technically correct.

The correct term is key rollover, ghosting is what happens when a key actuation occurs for a key that wasn't actually pressed, which can occur when multiple key presses are attempted and fails. The problem with this is a keyboard can be 2KRO and not ghost, while others can be NKRO and have ghosting problems (Microsoft's Sidewinder X4 is an example NKRO + ghosting problem)

Anways, a keyboard that fails when more than any two keys fail a pressed and the 3rd+ key(s) fail to actuate is called a 2KRO board, which is what I referred to just previously.

IIRC, USB is capable of up to 6KRO (plus the shift/ctrl/alt keys which can make it up to 10KRO), however PS/2 is capable of n-key rollover, ie NKRO, which means any number of keys can be pressed and all of them will be recognized.

if you want to really look into it more, they guys at geekhack.org are nuts about keyboards and pick them apart thoroughly and mercilessly: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=NKey+Rollover+-+Overview+Testing+Methodology+and+Results

@ $100 new, SteelSeries 6Gv2 will probably be (on average) the least expensive and easiest to find keyboard capable of NKRO over PS/2 or 6KRO over USB. It uses Cherry MX Black mechanical switches which I've seen quite a few people have an either love it or hate it stance with. I have the 6Gv2 and absolutely love it. The biggest complaint about the Cherry MX Black switch is that it requires the most force out of all the Cherry MX switches (60g to actuation) whereas other keys like the Browns and Reds only require 45g to actuation, or the Blues and Clears 50g and 55g respectively.

All Cherry MX switches actuate at 2mm into the keystroke and bottom out at 4mm. Browns, Clears and Blues have a tactile bump added to them to help give users physical feed back that their key press has registered and actuated, the Blues go a step further and add a distinctly audible click at the actuation distance along with the tactile bump.

Blacks and Reds are linear switches, meaning there will not be any tactile bump at the actuation point. This is generally considered ideal for certain movement oriented game types because you can literally hover the key right at the actuation point and spam away individual key presses with the greatest speed and precision, with emphasis on speed.

The positive about the tactile switches are the fact that they give feedback about key presses, so games that might require distinct and accurate key presses might benefit more from such switches (casting spells, issuing shortcut commands, or rhythm/pattern matching)

That being said, here are some options (all will be NKRO over PS/2 or 6KRO over USB):

$129-135 - http://www.daskeyboard.com/ - provides Cherry MX Blue and Brown options

$132-143 - http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards - the NKRO Filco boards (there are both 104 and 87 key variants) can be found in Blue, Brown, and Black, although the Browns are generally the most poplar and are thus hardly ever in stock.

$119-159 - http://www.deckkeyboards.com/keyswitches.php - they have Black and Clear options. And also an 82 key option for $119. Some of the most expensive I'm going to recommend but still within your budget. They include back lit keys and have a pretty good 30 day money back guarantee.

$99-149 - http://steelseries.com/us/products/keyboards - the 6Gv2 and 7G are both Cherry Black switches and nearly identical. The $50 extra for the 7G gets you USB/audio passthrough ports and a removable hand rest.

$130 - http://www.xarmor-usa.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=1 - The XArmor U9BL has Cherry Blue switches and blue back lighting.
 
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Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
thank you for the very detailed explanation, i had to read that 3 times but i think i get it.

So PS/2 is actually better than USB? that seems totally backwards but makes me happy i have a ps/2 port on my motherboard.

I see the SteelSeries 6Gv2 on sale fairly often at a local store for 59.99-69.99 i think ill jump on that next chance i get.
 

realjetavenger

Senior member
Dec 8, 2008
244
0
76
Thank you. That was an excellent explanation. I've recently been looking into mechanical keyboards and this post was the single clearest explanation I've found.
For anyone with a preference, xarmor is taking a poll to see what type of mechanical keyboard switch people want. Supposedly they will offer a keyboard based on the poll results. (Red is in the lead just barely edging out brown atm.)
http://www.xarmor-usa.com/cherry-mechanical-key-switches-vote.html
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Thank you. That was an excellent explanation. I've recently been looking into mechanical keyboards and this post was the single clearest explanation I've found.
For anyone with a preference, xarmor is taking a poll to see what type of mechanical keyboard switch people want. Supposedly they will offer a keyboard based on the poll results. (Red is in the lead just barely edging out brown atm.)
http://www.xarmor-usa.com/cherry-mechanical-key-switches-vote.html

Wow, amazing, thank you! I really really hope red wins the poll, there are already plenty of browns on the market (as its easily one of the most popular cherry switches) but its nearly impossible to find reds anywhere in North America without paying more for shipping/handling/idiot-tax than the cost of the keyboard itself.
 

Sinasis

Junior Member
Dec 1, 2010
2
0
0
$119-159 - http://www.deckkeyboards.com/keyswitches.php - they have Black and Brown options. And also an 82 key option for $119. Some of the most expensive I'm going to recommend but still within your budget. They include back lit keys and have a pretty good 30 day money back guarantee.

Very nice explanation, except for this. The Deck 'boards with tactile switches are actually Clears, not Browns (they are similar to clears but with a slightly different force curve and higher overall actuation force of 50g)

OP: I would not recommend Cherry Black switches initially, at least not if you can't try them out first, because they are so drastically different from rubber domes. The Clears honestly would be the easiest transition from Rubber Domes as they are tactile, nonclicky and don't have the (I think too) low actuation force that Browns have.

Bunny: There's a very good chance that they won't make their next keyboard with Reds no matter what the poll comes out to be. Cherry discontinued the Red switches a while ago, which is why the keyboards with them are so rare. They were a special run, meant only for a few keyboards, and there have been no signs of them returning, despite huge fan response...
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Very nice explanation, except for this. The Deck 'boards with tactile switches are actually Clears, not Browns (they are similar to clears but with a slightly different force curve and higher overall actuation force of 50g)

OP: I would not recommend Cherry Black switches initially, at least not if you can't try them out first, because they are so drastically different from rubber domes. The Clears honestly would be the easiest transition from Rubber Domes as they are tactile, nonclicky and don't have the (I think too) low actuation force that Browns have.

Bunny: There's a very good chance that they won't make their next keyboard with Reds no matter what the poll comes out to be. Cherry discontinued the Red switches a while ago, which is why the keyboards with them are so rare. They were a special run, meant only for a few keyboards, and there have been no signs of them returning, despite huge fan response...

fixed it, thanks

I had specifically described Clears earlier in my post to allude to the Decks because I don't know of any other keyboards that actually use Clears, but just had a brain fart when describing them.

I was also under the impression that Reds are still produced for the Asian markets...

Although maybe I am mistaken

At any rate, I'm not sure discontinued is a proper term when the only unique feature to the Red switches is that they're Black switches with Brown springs and Red coloring and thus they all the necessary components are still being produced in some form or another, should a determined KB manufacturer have the desire to produce a KB with Reds

Hopefully this mechanical keyboard resurgence we seem to be seeing (Razer getting into the game is a great sign so far) isn't just a trendy fluke, so atm I'd say we're in good shape of seeing more options in the future rather than seeing them go away.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
not sure if its worth ~$180 to get a no frills cherry red kb shipped to the states when I'm happy with my cherry black SS 6Gv2 I only paid $60 for

although I actually prefer no frills atm, I don't care for the bulkiness of the G80-3494 relative to my 6Gv2 or a Filco Majestouch/Rosewill RK-9000

But Cherry Reds do sound amazing, so I'll think about it...
 

jrjiri

Member
Dec 31, 2009
29
0
0
www.metrofax.com
I am one of those KB nerds from way back.. I was talking to a NOC lifer maintaining the servers at an internet fax company over the phone.. Even over the drone of the machines surrounding him, as he started typing up some info I stopped him and said "IBM Model M for PS/2?" and he laughed! Gave me a verbal Hi-5 for ID'ing his KB over the phone and then we continued on with the knowledge that we're certain of each other's nerdyness.

Anyways, introductions aside, I had zero knowledge of newer versions of the mechanical mechanisms! This is HUGE for me because there's no way I'm spending $200 a pop on EBay to guess at how fresh a 10 year old KB is!

I may actually order one on Monday, I'm that freaking stoked.. I just want to check all the ones you listed to find the best one!

If I could give you a +rep I would Bunny! Thanks for teaching an old dog a new trick.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
np, glad I could help

there are actually newer mechanical key switches and keyboards out there that cost well over $200 new because the switches are that advanced and thought out. They'll even go as far to make different sets of switches with varying degrees of resistance so keys hit with the pinky and ring fingers will require less and less resistance than those keys intended to be hit with the index and middle finger, all with the idea to reduce strain on the weaker fingers over extended periods of use.


Since you seem to be a Model M fan, the Cherry Blue switches would be best to emulate that sound and feel. Some of the cheaper versions with that switch will be the likes of the Razer BlackWidow @ $79 or the Rosewill RK-9000 @ $99.

Razer BlackWidow - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823114011

Rosewill RK-9000 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823201040

I didn't list the Rosewill initially because it was out of stock and very hard to find at the time, but its essentially going to offer the same features/functionality as the Filco Majestouch.

And I didn't list the Razer BlackWidow because the OP was basically asking about NKRO which the BlackWidow fails to comply with as its USB, and it even fails 6KRO which USB is capable of (the RK-9000 is NKRO / 6KRO with PS/2 / USB btw). Its technically 2KRO as it will fail to actuate 3 key presses on certain keys, although they claim the common gaming cluster around WASD/ESDF is properly "anti ghosted" so it should be fine for the average gamer I'm sure.

Both options should be excellent for just typing.


There's also the Unicomp option:

http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net//keyboards.html

they produce buckling spring switch replicas like the old Model M. I don't know too much about them but the springs supposedly provide less resistance and quality isn't on par with the trusty old IBMs, prices seem reasonable though, starting at ~$69
 
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jrjiri

Member
Dec 31, 2009
29
0
0
www.metrofax.com
Razer BlackWidow @ $79 - Wheres F1? I can't cope with totally unique FKey layout. :\

Rosewill RK-9000 @ $99. - Hello!

Unicomps - Wow very classic looking, but not in a sexy way? Prices are sexy though!

Steelseries - Nice but I can't do the relocated \ key with Enter taking up the extra space. Isn't that a Compaq thing?

Filco - $$$

XArmor U9BL - I think this is it, everything I want. Price is a tad bit high, but fine.

Deck - looks like I really want Cherry blues. I'll have to see if I can give the black/clear a try anywhere in town.

Daskeyboard - Ahh I like the XArmor more, but I can get these cheap through one of my suppliers.. Hmm!

Million thanks Bunny!
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Razer BlackWidow @ $79 - Wheres F1? I can't cope with totally unique FKey layout. :\
The F1 is right above the 2 and 3... maybe you missed it because they're using a different font on the keys.

Steelseries - Nice but I can't do the relocated \ key with Enter taking up the extra space. Isn't that a Compaq thing?
Thats my biggest gripe about my 6Gv2, although I got it for gaming and it doesn't make that big of a difference in the long run. I'm not sure about Compaq but IIRC I think its a Euro thing...

Filco - $$$
True, but they're supposed to be amongst the best in terms of build quality.

XArmor U9BL - I think this is it, everything I want. Price is a tad bit high, but fine.
I've heard nothing but good things about that board, other than price that is

Deck - looks like I really want Cherry blues. I'll have to see if I can give the black/clear a try anywhere in town.
Deck does have a 30 day money back 100% satisfaction guarantee, the Clears will be similar to the Blues but without the extra auditory click upon key actuation.

Daskeyboard - Ahh I like the XArmor more, but I can get these cheap through one of my suppliers.. Hmm!
Supposed to be very good boards, biggest gripe would be their glossy bezel finish, same deal with the Razer BlackWidow. It looks very nice when 100% clean, but that doesn't last long at all as its a dust/fingerprint/smudge magnet.

But If your discount makes it cheaper than a Rosewill RK-9000 it'd be hard to pick against IMO.
 

PaulHDietz

Junior Member
Dec 5, 2010
1
0
0
...

The problem with this is a keyboard can be 2KRO and not ghost, while others can be NKRO and have ghosting problems (Microsoft's Sidewinder X4 is an example NKRO + ghosting problem)

...

IIRC, USB is capable of up to 6KRO (plus the shift/ctrl/alt keys which can make it up to 10KRO), however PS/2 is capable of n-key rollover, ie NKRO, which means any number of keys can be pressed and all of them will be recognized.

...

This is somewhat misleading. I am the researcher behind the SideWinder X4's anti-ghosting technique, and to the best of my knowledge, it does NOT "ghost" (i.e. send keys that weren't pressed). The confusion is because there is a bug in Windows with the USB code that can cause extraneous key presses when large numbers of keys are pressed simultaneously. This impacts other keyboards, such as the Tarantula. The good news is that we reported the bug, and it has been identified and corrected, and the fix should be available in a future Windows update. This bug has been around since the early days of Windows, but no one seems to have noticed it before because you need to send a seemingly absurd number of key presses to activate it...

While standard keyboard reports are limited to 6 keys, it is possible to use extra reports to extend this. That's what the X4 does. It can report up to 17 QWERTY/navigation keys + modifiers. It's not NKRO. It would be fairer to call it 17KRO... (The advertised 26 number includes other special keys, such as the modifiers, macro, etc.)

Lots of people assume that ALL PS/2 keyboards are NKRO. They are not. Similarly, not all mechanical keyboards are NKRO. It depends on the keyboard matrix. The traditional diode solution IS expensive to implement, particularly if you need to move up to a huge PCB versus an inexpensive screen-printed membrane solution. X4 uses a new multitouch based system which is far less expensive because it can be screen-printed.

Anyhow, I hope this helps clarify things...
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
2
0
This is somewhat misleading. I am the researcher behind the SideWinder X4's anti-ghosting technique, and to the best of my knowledge, it does NOT "ghost" (i.e. send keys that weren't pressed). The confusion is because there is a bug in Windows with the USB code that can cause extraneous key presses when large numbers of keys are pressed simultaneously. This impacts other keyboards, such as the Tarantula. The good news is that we reported the bug, and it has been identified and corrected, and the fix should be available in a future Windows update. This bug has been around since the early days of Windows, but no one seems to have noticed it before because you need to send a seemingly absurd number of key presses to activate it...

While standard keyboard reports are limited to 6 keys, it is possible to use extra reports to extend this. That's what the X4 does. It can report up to 17 QWERTY/navigation keys + modifiers. It's not NKRO. It would be fairer to call it 17KRO... (The advertised 26 number includes other special keys, such as the modifiers, macro, etc.)

Lots of people assume that ALL PS/2 keyboards are NKRO. They are not. Similarly, not all mechanical keyboards are NKRO. It depends on the keyboard matrix. The traditional diode solution IS expensive to implement, particularly if you need to move up to a huge PCB versus an inexpensive screen-printed membrane solution. X4 uses a new multitouch based system which is far less expensive because it can be screen-printed.

Anyhow, I hope this helps clarify things...

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to share this.
 

jrjiri

Member
Dec 31, 2009
29
0
0
www.metrofax.com
This is somewhat misleading. I am the researcher behind the SideWinder X4's anti-ghosting technique, and to the best of my knowledge, it does NOT "ghost" (i.e. send keys that weren't pressed). The confusion is because there is a bug in Windows with the USB code that can cause extraneous key presses when large numbers of keys are pressed simultaneously.
Lots of people assume that ALL PS/2 keyboards are NKRO. They are not. Similarly, not all mechanical keyboards are NKRO. It depends on the keyboard matrix. The traditional diode solution IS expensive to implement, particularly if you need to move up to a huge PCB versus an inexpensive screen-printed membrane solution. X4 uses a new multitouch based system which is far less expensive because it can be screen-printed.

Thanks for the post Paul. The X4 is a good value for it's feature set. Sadly the custom FKeys and my desire to get a keyboard with excellent stroke/feel keep me from looking at it.

I'm personally getting a bit too old for the 1st person shooters and even when I was into them I was using the ASDF bindings vs. the default WASD. Lately my biggest combo is CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+TAB ... ooo 4 keys..
 

jrjiri

Member
Dec 31, 2009
29
0
0
www.metrofax.com
The F1 is right above the 2 and 3... maybe you missed it because they're using a different font on the keys.

The key above 2-3 should be F1 but the key looks like F8 and it's too far to the right?

I don't understand why companies think it's fair game to move keys around.. Other than the maniacal hope that people will become used to that layout and forced to remain with that company?
 

ripster55

Member
May 4, 2009
65
0
0
Just to be clear the Razer Black Widow has the NKRO problem as WELL as the funky function key placement.

It is a 2KRO keyboard technically so you can't hold ZXC at the same time. OK for WASD players (it's called a "Gaming Optimized Layout" by gaming keyboard marketing departments). Probably not so hot for ESDF and Arrow Cluster players.

Not a big deal for the $70-$80 non-illuminated version. That's quite competitively priced. A real pisser for the $130 Razer Black Widow "Not So Ultimate".

Shoulda used signal diodes instead of the Light Emitting variety.

 
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bigboxes

Lifer
Apr 6, 2002
40,247
12,219
146
I had an excellent Intel rubber dome keyboard that went out after years of heavy pounding. Replaced it with a Cherry keyboard with Cherry blue switches and couldn't be more happy! My typing speed has improved 20wpm and I feel I can beat on this thing all day and it will remain very precise. The audible clicking is not near as loud as the Model M. Get one (mechanical kb) and you'll dread ever getting on a friend's membrane keyboard forever more!
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
The key above 2-3 should be F1 but the key looks like F8 and it's too far to the right?

I don't understand why companies think it's fair game to move keys around.. Other than the maniacal hope that people will become used to that layout and forced to remain with that company?

I don't think its that huge of a deal in the case of the BlackWidow. Its really just the F keys that were shifted, otherwise the keys are perfectly in compliance with typical layouts. Razer claims to have shifted the F keys to line up with the WASD cluster and that its better for games that make use of the F keys.

While that explanation makes sense, I've never had a problem with the F keys in the past, and the F keys have never really been bound to mission critical functions so I really couldn't care less about the F key placement either way.
 

corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
Super Moderator
Mar 4, 2000
27,370
239
106
On a laptop it is different. F2 is above 2 and F3 is above 3. Seems pretty logical to me. ??
 

GeekDrew

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2000
9,099
19
81
On a laptop it is different. F2 is above 2 and F3 is above 3. Seems pretty logical to me. ??

Laptops are well known for having abnormal function key placement. On my ThinkPad X200, the Fx keys do not align with the numeral keys, as you indicate.
 
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