Keystone XL pipeline - why the fuss?

[pm]

It's funny. I just read a 5 page article about Keystone XL in Business Week (which probably leans right... I don't know... seemed mostly unbiased to me but what do I know) and they never mentioned eminent domain at all. There's one brief blurb at the bottom of page three that mentions that 90% of landowners have voluntarily come to an agreement with Transcanada... which implies there's 10% who aren't voluntarily agreeing... but no mention that land is an issue.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/keystone-xl-pipe-dreams-11102011.html

This quote from BusinessWeek's page 1 in the link above sums up my confusion:

Just a few years ago the XL’s predecessor, which runs from Canada to Oklahoma and branches into Illinois, breezed through the permit process during the Bush Administration with barely a whiff of concern from the public.

So was that because people knew it wouldn't make a difference? Or have concerns changed? Or what?

 

[umbrella39]

You can build 10 pipelines and the price of gas won't go down a dime. Rampant unregulated speculation is still driving prices. Supply is not down.

 

[bfdd]

You can build 10 pipelines and the price of gas won't go down a dime. Rampant unregulated speculation is still driving prices. Supply is not down.

Why don't you hold producers responsible as well? This isn't just speculators. Look at the profits of the big oil movers over the last couple of years.

 

[monovillage]

Probably a moot point now.

"The Obama administration said Thursday it would seek to reroute a portion of a proposed Canada-U.S. oil pipeline, postponing until after the 2012 election a decision on an issue that has divided the Democratic Party's environmental and union supporters."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204358004577030093417692560.html

 

[Darwin333]

In what fantasy world do you live in where the oil from Canada won't get shipped overseas leaving us to buy oil from exactly the same places we buy it now?

You can tell who has zero familiarity with the oil industry by the bullshit they post on these forums.

I worked in the oil industry for a decade, you know, actually putting holes in the earth. I live in the State that provides you a very large portion of your energy, you know the one that without you, along with the rest of the country, would go into immediate depression the likes of which have never been seen. I also happen to live 25 miles from this nations biggest and most important energy port. Pop quiz, what is the name of that port?

I have forgotten more about the energy industry in this country then you will ever know. BTW, today I own a company in the solar industry. So I also put my money where my mouth is.

I am also certified in various different energy efficiency programs in both commercial and residential construction (that means reducing the amount of energy those properties will use both in the short and long term).

What about you? What are your qualifications?

 

[Ausm]

Who benefits? Does anybody actually believe we'll see lower oil prices in America? Oil price is determined by the speculators...

Yeah and the idiots on the right that keep saying "drill baby drill" it wouldn't do SQUAT to lower oil prices and we would NEVER see the impact at the pump.

OT Op I see you are from Fort Collins, I love that city!

 

[Darwin333]

Because I don't trust those people to build anything or the government to provide oversight. I'm not going to lose any sleep over whether the pipeline gets built or not... But I don't understand why some people are so adamant about it. It won't benefit you at all.


I get it, because it's OIL, suddenly you rightwingers are all for siezing land with eminent domain to help out your super rich buddies.

Actually it will benefit me. Companies from my state will very likely get contracts to help build portions of it. It also ties into the pipeline system that feeds our refineries so it is quite likely that our refineries will see increased supply which means more very good paying jobs for my state. We are also the "hub" for shipping and receiving global energy so we could see increased traffic at our ports, more high paying jobs.

PS I am not a rightwinger but I do have a very clear understanding of our countries energy situation and needs. I haven't read a single thing about ed being an issue, if it is that is definitely something that should be looked at. Otherwise, I see nothing but good things from building the pipeline.

 

[Darwin333]

Yeah and the idiots on the right that keep saying "drill baby drill" it wouldn't do SQUAT to lower oil prices and we would NEVER see the impact at the pump.

OT Op I see you are from Fort Collins, I love that city!

You are absolutely correct but that doesn't make it a bad idea. Alternative energy doesn't reduce the cost of energy but that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea either.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

http://thegazette.com/2011/10/26/keystone-xl-pipeline-will-not-reduce-gasoline-prices/

That's incorrect. Oil is not exactly the same price everywhere due to transportation costs. Look at the gap between West Texas Crude and Brent Crude.

 

[yllus]

It may never happen, the White House State Dept. just delayed it, we'll have to wait and see if the delay kills it and Canada just decides to ship it instead.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-is-delayed-by-u-s-to-study-alternatives.html

Correction: Canada will build a pipeline to the west coast so we can sell oil to China instead.

 

[iGas]

Oil prices are controlled by global oil speculation, not by how big our pipeline from Canada is. Remember when oil hit $130/barrel? That wasn't because of supply changes.

Agree that oil is some what global price, but long term strike price is slightly different than the stock market pricing/fluctuation, and delivery cost also associated with it as well.

Currently Canada provide roughly 20% of US oil import. And, US oil import is roughly 12 millions barrels a day. In layman term, the Keystone pipeline expansion will increase 4.2~7.5% of total US oil import.

I hope that you pull your head out of the sand and look at the reality as the US will need to import more oil in the future due to population increase. Secure a reliable source of oil is the key to economic success, unless you don't mind economic fluctuation because of unreliable suppliers (such as the ME & Africa blood oil).

Keystone Gulf Coast Expansion Project (Keystone XL)

TransCanada and ConocoPhillips are planning to expand the Keystone crude oil pipeline system in order to increase its capacity from 590,000 barrels to approximately 1.1 million barrels per day. The pipeline will connect a growing supply of Canadian crude oil with a rising U.S. demand for energy by 2012.

The expansion includes a 1,980-mile, 36-inch crude oil pipeline starting at Hardisty, Alberta, and extending south to a delivery point near terminals in Port Arthur, Texas. The project includes adding pumping facilities, so the Keystone pipeline system could eventually expand its capacity from 1.1 million to 1.5 million barrels per day, according to TransCanada...

 

[iGas]

Correction: Canada will build a pipeline to the west coast so we can sell oil to China instead.

It is a long shot, because the American business have been providing money to Canadian environmental groups and native people to protest against the project (was reported by the National Post/Financial Post in the last couple of years), to ensure that the Keystone XL get the go ahead.

 

[bfdd]

Pipeline allows us to import less from enemies and more from our closest(physically) ally. Seems like a win fucking win, I honestly can't believe people are fighting this. Such ignorance.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Canada will build a pipeline to the west coast so we can sell oil to China instead.

Still more efficient and in the best financial interests of both the US and Canada to use a pipeline over container ships to sell the oil. Honestly, Canada should give the US an ultimatum... make up your minds in x months or the oil from those fields all goes overseas, that should snap the politicians here back into reality.

Pipeline allows us to import less from enemies and more from our closest(physically) ally. Seems like a win fucking win, I honestly can't believe people are fighting this. Such ignorance.

I agree, plus, by all accounts, this should be one of the safest pipelines out there.

The protesters are quite ignorant. This pipeline is a matter of national security and a boon for the environment. It is far, far, FAR better for the environment to "ship" oil via pipeline than by diesel truck.

The "dirty" tar sands WILL be developed and exported by Canada, the question is, do we get to purchase this valuable commodity from our brothers (Canadians) or the likes of Chavez?


On an unrelated note, I plan to write to The President and The Secretary of State on this matter and try to convey that the "silent majority" supports this logical project. While I doubt anyone that matters will ever read it, is it better to use snail mail over email?

 

[BoomerD]

Pipeline allows us to import less from enemies and more from our closest(physically) ally. Seems like a win fucking win, I honestly can't believe people are fighting this. Such ignorance.

What does it matter who we buy the oil from?

Hell, folks here seem to be fine with buying everything from China...and they're our enemies...we fought them in Korea, we fought them (on a limited basis) in Vietnam...we haven't been to war with Saudi Arabia...yet, although, since most of the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis...I'm not sure we shouldn't have.

Having worked a couple of pipeline jobs in my career, I have mixed opinions about this. Yes, it will create a few jobs during the construction of the pipeline...that's always a good thing, and it MIGHT create a few jobs in the refinery industry, although that's questionable...refineries seem to be able to handle the fluctuation is supply pretty well. Yes, it MIGHT create some construction jobs in/around the refineries...

However, the pipeline industry is anything but "environmentally sensitive," pipelines leak...often disastrously, and refineries are definitely NOT concerned with the environment...only profits. The local SF Bay area refineries are always getting busted for some kind of environmental violation or another. (I worked in many of them as a crane operator.)

So...I can see both sides of this. NO, adding the extra supply from Canada won't do a fucking thing to lower our prices. Those are set by the world market, and this will probably increase refinery profits...but that's about it.

Drill baby, drill? Fuck no...Let's burn up the oil from other countries rather than exhaust the limited supply we have under our ground.

 

[Dman8777]

It seems like mostly a case of 'not in my backyard.' Nobody wants windmills, nuclear power plants, or oil pipelines anywhere near their house, their water supply, their childs school etc etc.

The protesters are protesting based on murphy's law, that when something can go bad, it will. We got firsthand experience with oil-industry safety standards 2 years ago with the Deepwater Horizon platform.

This a little off-topic but somewhere I remember reading that the only reason Canada has been able to exploit the tar sands oil is because of the current price of oil. Under a certain limit, the tar sands stop producing a profit whereas traditional oil fields in OPEC nations can produce profits down to a much lower price per barrel. Does anyone know what the tar sands profit limit is?

 

[ElFenix]

That's incorrect. Oil is not exactly the same price everywhere due to transportation costs. Look at the gap between West Texas Crude and Brent Crude.

west texas crude is higher grade (lighter and sweeter) than brent crude and so has historically been priced higher.

further, the stills that make up refineries are set up to crack oil with particular qualities, so they're not as easily interchangeable as one might think.

darwin, are you here in houston? SE texas or louisiana.

 

[iGas]

Oil, coal, NG is bad, that leaving only solar is the only alternative, so perhaps it make more sense for American to convert their cars to solar vehicle or start walking.

 

[monovillage]

A victory for environmentalists: BANANA (build absolutely nothing anywhere, near anything)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/o...y-in-delaying-the-keystone-pipeline.html?_r=1

*EDIT* BTW pm impeccable timing in this thread.

*new edit* everybody loves Ft. Collins, what a great place full of great people.

 

[iGas]

It seems like mostly a case of 'not in my backyard.' Nobody wants windmills, nuclear power plants, or oil pipelines anywhere near their house, their water supply, their childs school etc etc.

The protesters are protesting based on murphy's law, that when something can go bad, it will. We got firsthand experience with oil-industry safety standards 2 years ago with the Deepwater Horizon platform.

This a little off-topic but somewhere I remember reading that the only reason Canada has been able to exploit the tar sands oil is because of the current price of oil. Under a certain limit, the tar sands stop producing a profit whereas traditional oil fields in OPEC nations can produce profits down to a much lower price per barrel. Does anyone know what the tar sands profit limit is?

It depends on the field, extraction method, and natural gas price.

A few fields break even point was as low as $37 per barrel due to low natural gas price. And, the majority of the new fields and environment conscious extraction method with high natural gas price make the break even point some where around $80 a barrel.

 

[bfdd]

Oil, coal, NG is bad, that leaving only solar is the only alternative, so perhaps it make more sense for American to convert their cars to solar vehicle or start walking.

No they aren't and this is so silly. These stupid environuts need to back the fuck off. I honestly think the only thing they want is everyone living in caves, unless they can afford expensive solar installations. Fuck paying for the "rich" to have solar power, they can breath in the same dirty ass fucking air we do.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

In what fantasy world do you live in where the oil from Canada won't get shipped overseas leaving us to buy oil from exactly the same places we buy it now?

You can tell who has zero familiarity with the oil industry by the bullshit they post on these forums.

Yes and you are an expert in it? While you may be dependant on oil being shipped to your little island, we here on the mainland, can just pipe it around. If we can buy more oil from Canada and not send our money to countries that support terrorism and hate us, IE Saudi Arabia, Venezuala, ect, it's a win win. We buy oil from Canada, Canada needs equipment to mine the oil sands and buys catepillar tractors from the US.

That's how it works.

 

[cabri]

Bumping this thread rather than starting thread #6 on the subject

Link

Looks like Canada is going to get the investment/jobs to create the pipeline instead of US workers as well as refining the crude.

Alberta to Newfoundland pipeline

 

[waggy]

edit damnit a old thread? bah

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Because I don't trust those people to build anything or the government to provide oversight. I'm not going to lose any sleep over whether the pipeline gets built or not... But I don't understand why some people are so adamant about it. It won't benefit you at all.


I get it, because it's OIL, suddenly you rightwingers are all for siezing land with eminent domain to help out your super rich buddies.

I'm glad to see you are against government run health care. BUTBUTBUT!!!!