Killing animals "humanely" for meat makes no sense

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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,917
12,379
126
www.anyf.ca
IMO, animals should be treated with care and respect until they're harvested. Their lives should be good, and stress free. That rules out pretty much all commercial meat. I'm a hypocrite, and eat commercial meat, but not much of it.

From a personal perspective, I couldn't raise animals to eventually kill them. Once I'm charged with their care, it strikes me as duplicitous to kill them after making them rely on me for food and shelter. Hunting, I have no problem at all with. I have no connection to the animal, and I'm fulfilling my role as predator, while they play the role of prey.

That's pretty much the way I feel about it too. I see zero reason to make an animal suffer or live a terrible life but not against meat/killing for food if done humanly. Killing for food is a natural process.

I don't really like the idea of killing animals, but I do like eating meat so I'm not going to start going all peta on people and saying to not do it. Just do it humanly.

That said, when proper procedures are followed to ensure a quick and painless death it's much more humane for an animal to die in our hands than in nature.

Just watch a snake eating a mouse or something. Very slow painful death.
 

IamDavid

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
5,888
10
81
I think you just went full retard.

What "food/protein" do you look at? Probably not Chickens.

lol, ok buddy. I've been in just about EVERY major beef and poultry operation in North America and in few in S.A, Asia and Europe. The US is far more humane then any other. Even slaughtering an animal following Kosher law is more humane then how most die in the wild...
 

Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
23
81
Yes, yes, and think of all the people that live tortuous lives and/or die just so you can live in a modern world.

If you grow your own food or partake in local sharecropping it's not difficult to have a very minimal impact on animal life. Unless you're talking about insects that have short lives anyway although a lot of those people tend to shy away from using pesticides so I don't think they're even being harsh to them. Hell if you setup a closed water grow system (not likely admittedly) but you very well could have almost no impact.



Because it's a scam? Unless you're in Japan you're more likely just getting fleeced if you order something described as Kobe beef.

Yes because its cheap in japan...
 

IamDavid

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
5,888
10
81
And? Kobe is overpriced even in Japan (it's frankly a perfect example of marketing power more than anything), but in the US it is largely an outright scam.



Any facts to back this up?
USDA along with KBP has tight oversight in slaughter plants that process Kobe beef, along with all other Wagyu breeds. CAB is also tightly controlled/monitored. 20 years ago I'd agree with your statement.

Did you know, every head of Wagyu cattle slaughtered in the larger plats are individually DNA tested?
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Take two people, one who eats healthy foods and exercises every day and is in great shape. The other only eats non-healthy foods, and sits on their ass all day. Do you really think the only difference between these two people is the amount of meat on their bones?

Now apply that to animals. I don't know about you, but I want to be eating the healthy animal.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Take two people, one who eats healthy foods and exercises every day and is in great shape. The other only eats non-healthy foods, and sits on their ass all day. Do you really think the only difference between these two people is the amount of meat on their bones?

Now apply that to animals. I don't know about you, but I want to be eating the healthy animal.

We had a dear family friend that went to VietNam with my dad. He started with Merck way back in 1971, and never did any processed foods. He liked some drinks time to time. In 2000ish when he was about to retire with his accounts probably earning $200k a year. He got a brain tumor and died within 6 months.

When he visited, he would always come to the gym with me. When we visited him, he'd be in the gym once per day.

Life throws issues.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
We're all just going to die eventually anyway. Why do we bother going to all the trouble of reducing our own pain and suffering in life? Once you've done your job and produced the next generation and seen them well on their way, might as well off yourself and stop hogging resources that they could be using.



We evolved to be omnivores. Consumption of meat helped give us the necessary energy boost to develop our bizarrely large brains. We've still got a taste for it, and living without it isn't terribly easy from the nutrient side of things.

If we're going to go ahead with raising animals for the purpose of an early death for meat, we could at least grant them some of the things we typically want for ourselves, like a life with as little suffering as can reasonably be given, and a painless and quick death.




Something along these lines was discussed in a philosophy class:
If you were to torture someone, but then do something to the person's brain so that they would not remember it, has harm been done?
Once memory of the event is gone, one might say there is no harm.
But for the person who is there in the present, enduring unimaginable pain, that future does not matter in the slightest.
That's what we have today: A lot of people who exist in the present, wishing to reduce pain or suffering when they encounter it, but they still face the inevitable termination of their own existence. Once that occurs, awareness stops, and thus one's pain can no longer exist since it cannot be perceived. So given that, what would be the harm in torturing someone to death?




If we're going to retain the carnivorous side of our biology, can't we at least grant the animals we eat a little bit of the benefit of the millions of years of evolutionary progress we have over them? At least show a shred of benevolence toward them.






http://www.upc-online.org/experimentation/experimentalConclusion.htm
http://www.wired.com/2012/02/headless-chicken-solution/

The Headless Chicken Solution

Another scenario is getting rid of the birds’ heads. In 1993, Robert Burruss wrote an essay in The Baltimore Sun in which he predicted that the future of chicken and egg production will include birds “beheaded and hooked up en masse to industrial-scale versions of the heart-lung machines.” Since these birds won’t move, cages will be obsolete. Nutrients, hormones and metabolic stimulants will be fed “in superabundance into mechanically oxygenated blood to crank up egg production.” Since no digestive tract will be needed, “it can go when the head goes, along with the heart and lungs and the feathers, too. The naked headless, gutless chicken will crank out eggs till its ovaries burn out. When a sensor senses that no egg has dropped within the last four or six hours, the carcass will be released onto a conveyer, chopped, sliced, steamed and made into soup, burgers and dogfood” (Burruss).

Interesting. (Also....I'm pretty sure I had this idea back in middle school, except for cows.)


No brain, no pain.


Ford argues that his solution is no more shocking than existing food-production techniques. “The realities of the existing systems of production are just as shocking,” he told Wired.co.uk, “but they are hidden behind the sentimental guise of traditional farming scenes that we as consumers hold in our minds and see on our food packaging.”
True. You see commercials or shows with farmers holding a healthy chicken, or looking at a roomy pasture of livestock.
You don't normally see food commercials that show things like chicken harvesters.
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
We had a dear family friend that went to VietNam with my dad. He started with Merck way back in 1971, and never did any processed foods. He liked some drinks time to time. In 2000ish when he was about to retire with his accounts probably earning $200k a year. He got a brain tumor and died within 6 months.

When he visited, he would always come to the gym with me. When we visited him, he'd be in the gym once per day.

Life throws issues.

So because there's a chance I could die in a car accident even with a seatbelt buckled, that means I shouldn't care to put a seatbelt on? We don't eat healthy or exercise to guarantee a longer, better life. We do it to improve our chances of avoiding the bad stuff.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
So because there's a chance I could die in a car accident even with a seatbelt buckled, that means I shouldn't care to put a seatbelt on? We don't eat healthy or exercise to guarantee a longer, better life. We do it to improve our chances of avoiding the bad stuff.

you are going outside the argument.
 

bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
3,894
162
106
I respect hunters, butchers and vegetarians.

Hunters and butchers know exactly how to go from an animal being alive to being on your plate.

Vegetarians generally avoid killing/eating animals.

It is the in-between people I don't get. People who expect a nice piece of meat but care about it being "free range" or "organic".

If you are going to eat meat, it makes no difference whether you treat an animal "humanely" or just lop off its head. It still ends up living a shortened life and being on your plate.

Can someone explain to me how killing animals "humanely" makes any sense?

Its not just the 'killing' part which is more humane but how animals are raised to become food. Instead of large warehouses keeping animals penned in cages by the tens of thousands a better way would be for many small farms raising animals. The large warehouse type model requires large govt subsidies, govt protection from competition, lax environmental laws to make a profit and even that profit doesn't generate lots of employment.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,181
5,645
146
Any facts to back this up?
USDA along with KBP has tight oversight in slaughter plants that process Kobe beef, along with all other Wagyu breeds. CAB is also tightly controlled/monitored. 20 years ago I'd agree with your statement.

Did you know, every head of Wagyu cattle slaughtered in the larger plats are individually DNA tested?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2014/01/07/the-new-truth-about-kobe-beef-2/

And its price is as much marketing as anything. They intentionally limit the amount they produce as well as exploiting the marketing (and frankly almost mythical status) they've built over time to establish the trademark. I'm not saying it's not tangibly better, I'm saying that most of what causes its outlandish price is the marketing and trademark stuff they've done. You can argue there's good reason as it does work, but fact is, there's nothing preventing others from taking similar approaches to raising cattle and not limiting how many they produce or delving into the rest (applying trademark, the testing/validation/proof, etc). In fact there's no absolute guarantee that Kobe will live up to it's mythical level, just that the animal the beef is from was raised in accordance with their method.

Looking at it objectively, the key aspect that makes Kobe what it is, is the way they go for a consistent marbling of the fat that permeates the whole cut, for an overall more even distribution of it. I'd be really curious if someone couldn't create a process for producing that from "lesser" meat, possibly even at a higher level (i.e. have a machine that injects the fat at specific intervals in specific amounts). Think about the lab meat they've been working on, what if they could manage that at the cellular level?
 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,813
10,347
136
Its not just the 'killing' part which is more humane but how animals are raised to become food. Instead of large warehouses keeping animals penned in cages by the tens of thousands a better way would be for many small farms raising animals. The large warehouse type model requires large govt subsidies, govt protection from competition, lax environmental laws to make a profit and even that profit doesn't generate lots of employment.

feeding 7 billion people requires economies of scale.
 

ahenkel

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2009
5,359
3
81
Personally in terms of taste the eggs I get from our chickens and the meat we get from our sheep and ducks taste way better than anything I get at a grocery store. Its not an ethics issue that I prefer free range food its just a matter of taste.
 

tokie

Golden Member
Jun 1, 2006
1,491
0
0
The main point of the thread was to identify the hypocrisy of a certain part of the population.

Let me break it down for y'all.

You have Bessie in a field enjoying life with her salt lick.

Joe 6-pack wants to have a barbecue. Joe goes over to the field but he can't bring himself to kill Bessie. Instead, Joe goes to the local supermarket and picks up some nice pre-packaged steaks.

Joe remains ignorant about how Bessie went from enjoying life with her salt lick to being on his plate.

If Joe were forced to watch the entire process, killing Bessie "humanely" probably would have little bearing on whether or not he would eat the steaks.

tl;dr If ordinary people were forced to watch the entire commercial food chain in action (slaughterhouses, rendering plants) then they most likely would not eat meat for quite a while.
 

RelaxTheMind

Platinum Member
Oct 15, 2002
2,245
0
76
dont know where you live but in places like where i live you can go to a supermarket and get cows/chickens that lived crappy lives in a cage getting force fed mystery junk or you can actually go to a farm/market that sells food that came from animals that live a full life getting to eat their somewhat rather natural food.

the "in-betweeners" that you speak of either dont have local or knowledge of such places or think they cant afford it.

or simply just dont care. people that would rather not see their food being prepared and just eat it would be the majority. i.e. hotdogs
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,406
4,967
136
As others have pointed out, organic is about giving the animals a better life, before they are butchered and avoid too much medicine/hormones in the production. I buy it for those reasons and I also think the meat is better from free range animals.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,601
29,313
136
The main point of the thread was to identify the hypocrisy of a certain part of the population.

Let me break it down for y'all.

You have Bessie in a field enjoying life with her salt lick.

Joe 6-pack wants to have a barbecue. Joe goes over to the field but he can't bring himself to kill Bessie. Instead, Joe goes to the local supermarket and picks up some nice pre-packaged steaks.

Joe remains ignorant about how Bessie went from enjoying life with her salt lick to being on his plate.

If Joe were forced to watch the entire process, killing Bessie "humanely" probably would have little bearing on whether or not he would eat the steaks.

tl;dr If ordinary people were forced to watch the entire commercial food chain in action (slaughterhouses, rendering plants) then they most likely would not eat meat for quite a while.
I've seen the slaughterhouse vids and still love a nice bacon cheeseburger.
 

maxi007

Banned
Sep 8, 2014
192
0
41
It does not make any sense but i respect both veggi and non veggie . killing animals is not inhumanity as somehow is need for us . eating veg is your wish .
 
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