Kitchen Design ... doing a remodel (now with pics!)

[IHateMyJob2004]

July 9
We decided on our layout.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=184531886&size=o

That's essentially it. Moving the door to the dining room was the best idea/decision ever!
Once the cabinets are ordered, we'll start the lighting plan (already 80% figured out) and do the wiring. I pray that when the cabinets get here, the kitchen will be ready for their iinstallation.



-----------------------
I'll resolve this eventually with a professional, but I'm currently trying to come up with concepts for remodeling.

I just read that work areas in a kitchen should be at least 42" apart. That is, if you have some cabinets on a wall and an island, they should be separated by at least 42".

Is this accurate? I was planning on doing 36". That would work out nicely, but if I have to do 42" realistically, my plans are in deep trouble as this is a tight area I am dealing with. That extra extra 6" is a big issue.

Anyone here know this kind of information?

UPDATE 1:
The current plan:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=164642635&size=o
The dimensions are not perfect!!! Accurate dimensions should be available on June 13 and I'll post an update then.

Not the best ... but .... The top right opening goes to a great room. The bathroom in the bottom right is new along with the closets. Top center is the new kitchen that will be done within 6 weeks. A DIY project Done it before, so don't worry. The image is a bit out of date as the cabinet nearest the laundry area will probably no be there. It will be a stick built pantry instead. Those wierd things below the laundry closets are chairs that we hope to use with a future breakfast bar. This is about as good of a plan as I have come up with. The closet just above the bathroom will probably not make the cut so that I can move the breakfast nook/sitting area slightly lower for better flow between the great room and the kitchen.

I'll try to gget a better image up soon. Time for bed.

UPDATE 2:
Two image updates.
An updated layout with notes:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=166233004&size=o

A rendering. The program also does color renderings, but this honestly looks better:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=166233007&size=o

SEE POST 06/13/2006 12:36 AM for more information.

UPDATE 3:
I'll be speding less time maintain the OP.
An Accurate "Clean slate" to come up with ideas.

UPDATE 4:
Gave Up On the Bathroom Move
This might be it, for real this time.

UPDATE 5: July 8 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer::thumbsup::moon::wine::music:
THE FOUR FINAL IDEAS I HAVE

This is what it comes down to in my mind:

-- 1 --
In the drawing, it looks liek things are far appart ... trust me it's an illusion. fridge to breakfast bar is about 12 feet, whcih is on the firndge of the work triangle size. But this also gives some counter space by the fridge.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=184508278&size=o

-- 2 --
Or with an island which causes the pantry to be deleted because the breakfast bar needs to be moved to better accomodate the island. With the island, the stove (oven/cooktop) could be moved to the island. The island would probably have to be 4 feet long whcih is kinda small. 5 feet would be better. And the associated pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=184508279&size=o

EDIT:
I should add that "2" above will also allow for the island to strectch if desired. We can always move the breakfast bar farther away. An extra 6" on the island is only a 6" move of hte breakfast bar after all

EDIT 2:
Heck, here's 2 other ideas, the second of whci his awesome. It requires moving the passageway on the left side of the kitchen, but it might be worth it.

-- 3 --
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=184531885&size=o

-- 4 -- (this one is NICE)
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=184531886&size=o
:beer:

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi...ingandclothing/components/DK1392B.html

Verified. Apparently it is a kitchen design standard. Go down about half way. I'm not sure if it would be required due to zoningthough. Probably a good rule ... I'll have to see what I can do. At worse, I'll have to make the island 2'x7 or 2.5'x7' instead of 3'x7' ... for example. That kinda #@@#s though

EDIT: 2.5' x 7' (example) will work out fine. Might be 40" instead of 42" ... but that is more than close enough

 

[amdskip]

Move a wall FTW! Post a plan up when you get it figured out. I enjoy this sort of thing.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

BUMP .. changed OP by adding this:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=164642635&size=o
The current floor plan

The OP also has a dcent sized write up.

 

[FP]

What program did you make those plans with?

 

[MooseKnuckle]

The nook is a waste f space in the lower right, move the laundry down there and have that space for transition in to the great room. When entertaining do you really want your guests looking at your laundry? I wouldn't... What is the room in the lower center connected to the bath?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: binister
What program did you make those plans with?

Punch Pro Platinum.

It's pretty good software for about $100. Also does landscaping and other stuff.

MooseKnuckle,
Good comments. I considered the change you mentioned before coming up with the current plan. The laundry is already in the location in the drawing. So all the plumbing, electrical, etc is done. Also, if I move the laundry, I'd have to put a window there to get more light. The windows in the lower right provide enough natural light for the space. Mocing the laundry to that area would block to much of the light. That adds to the project costs. Things are still up in the air thuogh, so who knows.

Bottom leeft is the living room (for entertaining only) and hte bottom center is the foyer. I'll add a staircase in the next image I post. Possibly tonight.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Oh, in the current iteration I came up with a great idea. The firdge in the lower left of hte kitchen will now be a cabinet. Maybe a pantry. And the fridge will be to the right of it, recessed into the living room wall. The living room is in hte lower let of hte whole drawing. This change will be in the next pic I upload.

 

[MooseKnuckle]

The space in the lower right is wasted; windows or not. If the bathroom is not complete I would move it to the upper right of the foyer. The door in the upper center of the kitchen goes where?

 

[Pikachu]

If you're so worried about standard designs, then you sorely blew it on the "work triangle". Better get that pro in here ASAP. Maybe lose the island and incorporate an eating area right in the kitchen.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: binister
What program did you make those plans with?

Punch Pro Platinum.

It's pretty good software for about $100. Also does landscaping and other stuff.

MooseKnuckle,
Good comments. I considered the change you mentioned before coming up with the current plan. The laundry is already in the location in the drawing. So all the plumbing, electrical, etc is done. Also, if I move the laundry, I'd have to put a window there to get more light. The windows in the lower right provide enough natural light for the space. Mocing the laundry to that area would block to much of the light. That adds to the project costs. Things are still up in the air thuogh, so who knows.

Bottom leeft is the living room (for entertaining only) and hte bottom center is the foyer. I'll add a staircase in the next image I post. Possibly tonight.

I have to agree with MooseKnuckle too and cost for relocating your plumbing/electrical for the laundry isn't going to be that high if it is not on slab construction and the piping grade allow for it (also have to watch the venting).

As said the space in the lower right is way too small for any usage other than closet space. I would move the bathroom to the right of the foyer if it is feasable to give the lower right area more room.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: Pikachu
If you're so worried about standard designs, then you sorely blew it on the "work triangle". Better get that pro in here ASAP. Maybe lose the island and incorporate an eating area right in the kitchen.

The work triangle is great, but there are variations that would do just fine. The triangle is there because it allows easy access from the fridge to sink to stove.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Two image updates.
An updated layout with notes:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=166233004&size=o

A rendering. The program also does color renderings, but this honestly looks better:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=166233007&size=o
No upper cabinets as that would clutter the schematic to much. Those would go everywhere except over the island and breakfast bar. I might add the upper cabinets in teh next rendering just to show the plan better.

I added notes for where the fridge and dishwasher and sink go. The stove will go in either 1 or 2. The current location is (1) and that leaves plenty of work area to the left of it. Right now, I am leaning towards the (1) location. I might do a small secondary sink in the island, however the wife is against that idea. I agree with her. It will be nice to have a 30"x60" work area. The fridge is currently in the same location as the drawing, but it is not recessed into the living room area. That is a good placement for it but the recess is needed if we go with an island concept.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

MooseKnuckle,

I updated the foyer to include the staircase Less confusing this way .... The bathroom placement is pretty mcuh as good as it gets. It's out of site and out of mind. Doesn't need to be huge either as it's just a half bath. Truth is, compared to the current first floor bathroom, it's going to en up being about the same size. Take a close look at the dimensions, it might be a bit bigger than you realize. It's essentially 5x3 with a 3x3 bump out for the toilet. We might make it slightly bigger thoguh as an inc here and inch there will make a big difference.

Pikachu,
I'm keeping the work triangle in mind. I added notes to the current schematic to try to clear up placements of applainces and sink(s). The current drawing does have a work triangle. The breakfast bar won't be very utilitarian, but those cabinets will probably house items not used as often. Otehr than that, there is a nice tight work space to deal with. I think the current iteration is quite nice.

All,
We will be going to a well established kitchen design center (not Home Depot, etc) to finalize a design and get their advice. And order cabinets. There is one thing to remeberer. Without these iterations, I probably would have never thuoght of recessing the fridge. That alone is making my effort worth it. This is something a kitchen designer might not even consider. Even thoguh, there is a good chance they will.

Tommorrow I will be going to the home for the inspection and taking accurate measurements of the entire first floor. From those, I will add another updated schematic.

JinLien,
Any sources on alternatives to the triangle?

All,
I think the island will work to help the "triangle". It would be more akin to fidge to island to anywhere. So, get all the things you need out of the fridge will be one step.

Any comments on work surfaces? We are leaning towards corion, but we are still up in the air.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Work triangle.

The distance betwen any leg should not be more than 9 feet. Well, fridge to sink is just about 9 feet. And the stove will be between it, so I think it works out.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: JinLien

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: binister
What program did you make those plans with?

Punch Pro Platinum.

It's pretty good software for about $100. Also does landscaping and other stuff.

MooseKnuckle,
Good comments. I considered the change you mentioned before coming up with the current plan. The laundry is already in the location in the drawing. So all the plumbing, electrical, etc is done. Also, if I move the laundry, I'd have to put a window there to get more light. The windows in the lower right provide enough natural light for the space. Mocing the laundry to that area would block to much of the light. That adds to the project costs. Things are still up in the air thuogh, so who knows.

Bottom leeft is the living room (for entertaining only) and hte bottom center is the foyer. I'll add a staircase in the next image I post. Possibly tonight.

I have to agree with MooseKnuckle too and cost for relocating your plumbing/electrical for the laundry isn't going to be that high if it is not on slab construction and the piping grade allow for it (also have to watch the venting).

As said the space in the lower right is way too small for any usage other than closet space. I would move the bathroom to the right of the foyer if it is feasable to give the lower right area more room.

Ahhh moving things ... I've learned alot from my first remodel. SOLD IT!!!! Anyways ... A tight budget isn't that important, but if things don't need to be moved ... don't move them. $200 here, $200 there .... it all adds up. We plan on living in this home for 6 years so it's not that important, but it's still an invetment to us. And bottom line is if it doesn't add value ... save the money. This still might happen, but I highly doubt it at this point.

Currently, the lower right of the kitchen is pretty much unusable space. Adding the bathroom and small closet there actually will be of great benefit! I also removed one of the closets down there as it added wasted space. Now the nook's table can be moved closer to the bathroom. Thus providing a clear walking bath from the Great Room to the Dining area. Or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[MooseKnuckle]

The fridge in front of the island is a little strange, the door in the top of the kitchen leads to ? Here's a idea: The center island gets chocked on a forty five degree angle, move the dishwasher to it and put the fridge where it is. Add a cabinet to the center Island and lose the breakfast bar not in a "L" shape but "half of a Y". You can increase the pantry if you 'd like. Get rid of the cabinet in the lower left. add one small cabinet on the lower right hand corner opposite the words "breakfast bar" connected to that add 2 cabinets w/ a mini fridge and a bar sink going down that wall opposite the small table and chairs. Now you have a service area for the great room.

 

[MooseKnuckle]

Get rid of the closet in the lower right, have a table come off that wall towards the kitchen and add bankette seating on the odd-shaped wall of the bathroom. Nice breakfast nook with plenty of light and view of the outdoors while drinking a cup of "joe" and reading the morning paper. You can now eliminate the table and chairs and have clear access to all workareas.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: binister
What program did you make those plans with?

Punch Pro Platinum.

It's pretty good software for about $100. Also does landscaping and other stuff.

MooseKnuckle,
Good comments. I considered the change you mentioned before coming up with the current plan. The laundry is already in the location in the drawing. So all the plumbing, electrical, etc is done. Also, if I move the laundry, I'd have to put a window there to get more light. The windows in the lower right provide enough natural light for the space. Mocing the laundry to that area would block to much of the light. That adds to the project costs. Things are still up in the air thuogh, so who knows.

Bottom leeft is the living room (for entertaining only) and hte bottom center is the foyer. I'll add a staircase in the next image I post. Possibly tonight.

Can you come teach me how to use it? I have that package but never could successfully get my current house floorplans setup correctly in it. We have diagonal walls and stairways with landings and I went nuts trying to get all that stuff in correctly. Even worse was trying to get my basement in with the exterior walls. I guess I need to take a CAD class.

 

[amdskip]

I would move the washer and dryer out of the kitchen area as that's just strange to have it there. I would slide it over next to the bathroom as it fits much better over here and frees up space so you can have a clean access path to the great room.

If possible I would get the exterior door out of the kitchen and move it to the area between the kitcken and the great room. I would use some french or slider doors here.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: binister
What program did you make those plans with?

Punch Pro Platinum.

It's pretty good software for about $100. Also does landscaping and other stuff.

MooseKnuckle,
Good comments. I considered the change you mentioned before coming up with the current plan. The laundry is already in the location in the drawing. So all the plumbing, electrical, etc is done. Also, if I move the laundry, I'd have to put a window there to get more light. The windows in the lower right provide enough natural light for the space. Mocing the laundry to that area would block to much of the light. That adds to the project costs. Things are still up in the air thuogh, so who knows.

Bottom leeft is the living room (for entertaining only) and hte bottom center is the foyer. I'll add a staircase in the next image I post. Possibly tonight.

Can you come teach me how to use it? I have that package but never could successfully get my current house floorplans setup correctly in it. We have diagonal walls and stairways with landings and I went nuts trying to get all that stuff in correctly. Even worse was trying to get my basement in with the exterior walls. I guess I need to take a CAD class.

Linflas,

I don't think a CAD class is required. The manual is pretty thick, but if you go through the tutorial, you'll catch on. it's definitely not software you can open the box and use without reading the manual. But it should not take less than 8 hours. You could spend 2 hours a night during the week going through the tutorials and become fairly well accustomed to using it.

I wouldn't use this software to build a house but I know atleast one person who used it to plan an addition and gett the proper permits for the work ... using this products printouts.

I'm planning a kitchen with it even though I plan to go to the professionals to get their advice. I enjoy figuring these issues out. It's kind of like a mental exercise And I'd like to go to a kitchen planner with a concept and see what they think even if they come up with something 10 times better.

All,
We had the inspection today. I'm currently updating my schematic to have accurate numbers.

I wasn't off by much but I forgot that the kitchen bumps out about 1 foot.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Update coming soon.

 

[CTweak]

I recently installed a new kitchen in a small house, and while they do recommend 42" I went 36" between the island and counters/fridge/etc. I found the work area quite comfortable. If you can do 42" do it, but 36" works just fine.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: CTweak
I recently installed a new kitchen in a small house, and while they do recommend 42" I went 36" between the island and counters/fridge/etc. I found the work area quite comfortable. If you can do 42" do it, but 36" works just fine.

I jsut emasured my in-laws new place. HUGE KITCHEN. Tehy did 41" in most spots, but there is a spot where it drops to 37". It was more than adequate. So, 36" is probably fine.

Truth is, in a small kitchen, 42" isles might look akward.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

EXACT MEASUREMENTS!!

This is a blank schematic with exact measurements. Door/window opening sizes take trim into account. I removed the current closets that were in the top right corner. The reason is simple.....

... I need to think of this as a blank slate as we have to do this kitchen correctly. That is the bottom line and if it costs an extra $1000-$2000 to do it, so be it.

I have a crazy idea I just drew up in my head. I'll post it in a second for kicks .... but first I have to look over other posts from the past day.