kitchen remodeling, tiles and backsplash

[BlahBlahYouToo]

do you typically tile the entire kitchen floor, meaning under the cabinets as well? or just the exposed areas of the floor?

same for backsplash. does it start right where the counter and wall meet, or a little bit under the counter?

related question- wtf is backsplash tiling so frickin expensive? $20 a sq ft?

 

[Codewiz]

There is very little benefit to tiling under cabinets. Just tile the exposed floor area. Your cabinets are not likely to be sitting directly on the floor(without shims) unless your floor is extremely flat. For instance, my concrete subfloor has about a 1inch difference between one corner of the room to the other. Your cabinets have to be level and flat regardless of the floor. Another thing to consider is that tile does have some small amount of expansion. I don't think that would be good for the flooring to expanding/contracting underneath the cabinets.

Backsplash should just meet the countertop and there shouldn't be much of a gap between the countertop and the wall.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

do you typically tile the entire kitchen floor, meaning under the cabinets as well? or just the exposed areas of the floor?

same for backsplash. does it start right where the counter and wall meet, or a little bit under the counter?

related question- wtf is backsplash tiling so frickin expensive? $20 a sq ft?

To my understanding, floor tile runs to the base of the cabinetry, not under the cabinetry. The exception being where the cabinetry has an open bottom (e.g., a pedestal sink in a bathroom).

That said, there might be some circumstances in which tiling under the cabinets might be of use, e.g., where the tile backerboard/thinset could be used to correct minor defects with the floor/subfloor.

As to the backsplash tile, you are looking at some seriously expensive product. You can use just about any tile for a backsplash, including the stuff that costs < 50c/sq. foot.

 

[vi edit]

Question one: It just depends. There is no right answer. If you are pulling all cabinets and replacing the floor, then it makes sense to tile everything and then set your bases on it. If you aren't pulling the bases then you will probably tile around them.

Question two: It just depends on your look. If your counter surface doesn't have a formed backsplash then you can do whatever you want. My personal preference is to take the tile all the way down to counter and not do any backsplash that matches the counter. It gives you more room to add accent tile in without looking too busy.

As for price...it just depends on material. Tumbled marble subway tile are cheap. $2-$4 a sq/ft. Tumbled mosaic paterns around around $12-$15 a sq/ft. Some of that fancy glass stuff is $40 or more.

I paid under $400 for the 40 sq/ft in this remodel:
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...ym8eoINUe3-s6l4dpdYR00EiA/IMG_3374.jpg?psid=1

This was about $600 for about 60 sq/ft
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...padYRk-lIq4o39dJYGkeRi1sg/IMG_3827.JPG?psid=1

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...9NYUwPyUWsfm3YF_MJZiQSkgA/IMG_3826.JPG?psid=1

 

[SphinxnihpS]

There is very little benefit to tiling under cabinets. Just tile the exposed floor area. Your cabinets are not likely to be sitting directly on the floor(without shims) unless your floor is extremely flat. For instance, my concrete subfloor has about a 1inch difference between one corner of the room to the other. Your cabinets have to be level and flat regardless of the floor. Another thing to consider is that tile does have some small amount of expansion. I don't think that would be good for the flooring to expanding/contracting underneath the cabinets.

Backsplash should just meet the countertop and there shouldn't be much of a gap between the countertop and the wall.

If you're remodeling and not taking out the cabinets, don't take out the cabinets to tile beneath them. If you are doing a bare room, tile the entire floor.

Cabinets installed correctly are attached to the walls and only superficially touch the floor. Who shims cabinets to the floor? You build the cabinet and base separately, temp install the base and scribe it to the floor so it's level and gapless, then uninstall the base, attach it to the cabs, and then set the whole thing and attach the cabs to the wall. You would only shim the wall. Then install the countertops, scribing them to the wall, then the back splash. The countertop scribing is unnecessary if the backsplash is thicker than the widest gap between the walls and countertops.

$20/SQFT installed or materials? I mean you could spend far more than that for some materials, but I don't know what you're putting in. Easy to go that high uninstalled for stone and some handmade or glass tiles. DO NOT INSTALL TILE COUNTERTOPS!!!

 

[DrPizza]

I asked a similar question, and I think it was Greenman who gave the best response. There's nothing wrong with tiling under the cabinets, except that if you ever have to change the tiles on the floor, it's a bitch and a half to cut those tiles out flush with the cabinets. For that reason, you don't tile under the cabinets.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

contractor is going to be demo'ing the ENTIRE kitchen, which includes current tiles, backsplash, cabinets, gutting the ceiling, knocking down some walls, cutting into the beams, etc..

 

[Electric Amish]

One problem you *can* run into with NOT tiling under cabinets is with under-counter appliances like dishwashers. If you add ~1" of tile in front of the dishwasher section you could possibly run into problems getting the dishwasher in/out with the height of the counter-top. Just something to be aware of.

I'm getting ready to do this as well and plan on clearing all cabinets and tiling everything.

 

[Codewiz]

Cabinets installed correctly are attached to the walls and only superficially touch the floor. Who shims cabinets to the floor? You build the cabinet and base separately, temp install the base and scribe it to the floor so it's level and gapless, then uninstall the base, attach it to the cabs, and then set the whole thing and attach the cabs to the wall. You would only shim the wall. Then install the countertops, scribing them to the wall, then the back splash. The countertop scribing is unnecessary if the backsplash is thicker than the widest gap between the walls and countertops.

You are making some wild assumptions there. If you are using pre-built cabinets(almost 100&#37; of track homes) and everything a person would get from lowes/home depot, you are going to have to shim up the cabinets. The only time you wouldn't shim up base cabinets is if you are custom making the cabinets. And even then, it would be next to impossible to be them perfect on most concrete subfloors without some amount of shims.

You want some level of support from the floor if you are putting granite or quartz countertop on them. That crap is heavy if 100% of the weight is going on the wall studs, you are going to have issues.

Finally, in 99% of the installs, you aren't going to scribe granite or quartz countertops to the wall. You are going to get the ends right and there will be a small amount of gap left from end to end to allow for wall variations. You either tile the backsplash or use some of the countertop material to make the backsplash.

"

One problem you *can* run into with NOT tiling under cabinets is with under-counter appliances like dishwashers. If you add ~1" of tile in front of the dishwasher section you could possibly run into problems getting the dishwasher in/out with the height of the counter-top. Just something to be aware of.

I'm getting ready to do this as well and plan on clearing all cabinets and tiling everything.

I am getting ready to do my flooring and I will be tiling under my dishwasher and refrigerator but chose not to tile under the cabinets.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

I tiled under my cabinets. No real reason other than the fact that it is way easier than having to make an exact cut for each tile that would butt up against the cabinet. It is a timesaver and scraps can be used under the cabinets where it is obviosu that they will not be seen.

EDIT: You definitely need to tile under hte fridge, dishwasher, stove, etc.

 

[DrPizza]

DO NOT INSTALL TILE COUNTERTOPS!!!

Why? What's wrong with tiling countertops? I've seen some very beautiful granite tiled countertops. Just don't use regular grout - use an epoxy grout (much more difficult to install)

 

[Homerboy]

I tiled under my cabinets. No real reason other than the fact that it is way easier than having to make an exact cut for each tile that would butt up against the cabinet. It is a timesaver and scraps can be used under the cabinets where it is obviosu that they will not be seen.

EDIT: You definitely need to tile under hte fridge, dishwasher, stove, etc.

I wouldn't be too sure about DEFINITELY tiling under appliances. As previously mentioned, if you tile under some appliances it is going to through your clearances off with counter tops and underside (dishwashers) that 1/4"
If the floating floor in my kitchen went under my dishwasher, there is NO WAY the dish washer would fit in under the counter top. And vice versa with my stove. If there was no floating floor under it, it would be 1/4" too low compared to the counter tops (I realize I could adjust with the feet on the stove, but that'd be a decent amount of adjusting)

 

[amdskip]

I vote to tile under. Chances are good that if you are replacing the floor your kitchen is due for a redo. I've heard people having issues squeezing the dishwasher in and the cost is very minimal so that should not even be part of the discussion. I tiled under and am very pleased that I did so.

 

[amdskip]

I wouldn't be too sure about DEFINITELY tiling under appliances. As previously mentioned, if you tile under some appliances it is going to through your clearances off with counter tops and underside (dishwashers) that 1/4"
If the floating floor in my kitchen went under my dishwasher, there is NO WAY the dish washer would fit in under the counter top. And vice versa with my stove. If there was no floating floor under it, it would be 1/4" too low compared to the counter tops (I realize I could adjust with the feet on the stove, but that'd be a decent amount of adjusting)

This is exactly why you should do it if doing a complete remodel.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Why? What's wrong with tiling countertops? I've seen some very beautiful granite tiled countertops. Just don't use regular grout - use an epoxy grout (much more difficult to install)

Cleaning them sucks. Epoxy grout could make it somewhat easier, but tile countertops are generally a money saver option to avoid paying for stone but getting some of the look. Not saying anything about how they look, only function.

 

[vi edit]

Why? What's wrong with tiling countertops? I've seen some very beautiful granite tiled countertops. Just don't use regular grout - use an epoxy grout (much more difficult to install)

Personal preference for me. It just looks cheap and and the seams can catch the bottoms of cups and other objects as you slide them across the counters. I'd take a good laminate counter over tile I dislike it that much. I'm just more of a solid slab of rock kind of person when it comes to counter tops.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

You are making some wild assumptions there. If you are using pre-built cabinets(almost 100&#37; of track homes) and everything a person would get from lowes/home depot, you are going to have to shim up the cabinets. The only time you wouldn't shim up base cabinets is if you are custom making the cabinets. And even then, it would be next to impossible to be them perfect on most concrete subfloors without some amount of shims.

You want some level of support from the floor if you are putting granite or quartz countertop on them. That crap is heavy if 100% of the weight is going on the wall studs, you are going to have issues.

Finally, in 99% of the installs, you aren't going to scribe granite or quartz countertops to the wall. You are going to get the ends right and there will be a small amount of gap left from end to end to allow for wall variations. You either tile the backsplash or use some of the countertop material to make the backsplash.

"

I am getting ready to do my flooring and I will be tiling under my dishwasher and refrigerator but chose not to tile under the cabinets.

I'm not making any wild assumptions. I have yet to meet a perfectly square corner or flat surface in a building. When you scribe the base of the cabinet to the floor, it fits the floor perfectly and the cabinet is level. The base bears weight in front,and the screws in the walls hold everything in place, but if done right, you could even take the base out and let the cabinets float, even with 2 inches of cast concrete and a jumping adult on them. Depends on how you mount. You are certainly not going to have issues with the weight affecting the studs. You do however need cabs with 3/4" mechanically attached plywood backs. Yeah that's generally custom. I can make my own, so I would never dream of buying the SHIT they stock at home centers, not even the custom order shit.


Granite is scribed at the dealer's shop. They come template your walls for a reason. You can DIY scribe stone with the right belt sander and grinder attachments, and backsplash is unnecessary.

Sounds like he's got a contractor, and he's doing a complete gut, so I don't even know why he's asking anymore.

 

[Codewiz]

I'm not making any wild assumptions. I have yet to meet a perfectly square corner or flat surface in a building. When you scribe the base of the cabinet to the floor, it fits the floor perfectly and the cabinet is level. The base bears weight in front,and the screws in the walls hold everything in place, but if done right, you could even take the base out and let the cabinets float, even with 2 inches of cast concrete and a jumping adult on them. Depends on how you mount. You are certainly not going to have issues with the weight affecting the studs. You do however need cabs with 3/4" mechanically attached plywood backs. Yeah that's generally custom. I can make my own, so I would never dream of buying the SHIT they stock at home centers, not even the custom order shit.


Granite is scribed at the dealer's shop. They come template your walls for a reason. You can DIY scribe stone with the right belt sander and grinder attachments, and backsplash is unnecessary.

Sounds like he's got a contractor, and he's doing a complete gut, so I don't even know why he's asking anymore.

Once again you are assuming he is getting full custom cabinets. That is a bad assumption.

As for granite, yes, they do templates but if you are getting a backsplash, there is ZERO reason to scribe to the wall. And they won't do that. They will get the corners and ends right. Between the ends, it will be cut in to allow for wall imperfections. There is no reason to waste material when a backsplash is going on the wall.

 

[Humpy]

... When you scribe the base of the cabinet to the floor, it fits the floor perfectly and the cabinet is level. The base bears weight in front,and the screws in the walls hold everything in place, but if done right, you could even take the base out and let the cabinets float, even with 2 inches of cast concrete and a jumping adult on them. Depends on how you mount. You are certainly not going to have issues with the weight affecting the studs. You do however need cabs with 3/4" mechanically attached plywood backs. Yeah that's generally custom. I can make my own, so I would never dream of buying the SHIT they stock at home centers, not even the custom order shit.

People come up with odd ways of doing things all the time, there is nothing wrong with it, but scribing cabinets to the floor in most circumstances, even custom cabinets, is odd.

There is simply no need or benefit to scribing as opposed to shimming. The extra time and money spent does not increase quality.

As to tile first or last, tile last does have benefits. During the installation of the cabinets, counter tops, backsplash, under cabinet lighting, sink plumbing, etc., if there is no finished floor yet there is no finished floor to potentially damage. There is no real benefit to tile first, other than occasional scheduling benefits.

Regardless, one needs to know of any out of level sub floor problems, finished floor height, and appliance clearances before hand whether or not finished flooring goes in first or last.

 

[Codewiz]

People come up with odd ways of doing things all the time, there is nothing wrong with it, but scribing cabinets to the floor in most circumstances, even custom cabinets, is odd.

There is simply no need or benefit to scribing as opposed to shimming. The extra time and money spent does not increase quality.

As to tile first or last, tile last does have benefits. During the installation of the cabinets, counter tops, backsplash, under cabinet lighting, sink plumbing, etc., if there is no finished floor yet there is no finished floor to potentially damage. There is no real benefit to tile first, other than occasional scheduling benefits.

Regardless, one needs to know of any out of level sub floor problems, finished floor height, and appliance clearances before hand whether or not finished flooring goes in first or last.

I can also add that if there is ever a water leak in my house, my base cabinets won't be ruined because they were scribed to the floor. I have personally never seen it done.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Sounds like he's got a contractor, and he's doing a complete gut, so I don't even know why he's asking anymore.

just wanted to find out what standard practice was when it came to tiling.
don't want my guy cutting corners if wall to wall was standard.

 

[Humpy]

I can also add that if there is ever a water leak in my house, my base cabinets won't be ruined because they were scribed to the floor. I have personally never seen it done.

The few times I have scribed cabinets to the floor is with furniture style cabinetry with legs instead of normal toekicks. Sometimes kitchen islands also. We're talking a few 16ths of an inch though. If it is known that a scribe fit is needed I make sure that the floors are leveled ahead of time.

 

[Humpy]

just wanted to find out what standard practice was when it came to tiling.

Standard practice in my area is floor tile last, unless it blows the schedule.

 

[vi edit]

Standard practice in my area is floor tile last, unless it blows the schedule.

And in my area almost all tile guys & GC's want tile down first before setting cabinets. No doubt it's easier on a tile guy to do it in one big wall to wall chunk and hide your cuts on the edges.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Once again you are assuming he is getting full custom cabinets. That is a bad assumption.

As for granite, yes, they do templates but if you are getting a backsplash, there is ZERO reason to scribe to the wall. And they won't do that. They will get the corners and ends right. Between the ends, it will be cut in to allow for wall imperfections. There is no reason to waste material when a backsplash is going on the wall.

I only made any mention of the cabinets at all because of what you said about shimming them. You do not shim under stuff that bears weight, and if the wall is bearing most of that, then you don't really need anything under them. Either way, shims are only necessary for temp placement. Indeed a simple way of doing it is to buy adjustable legs for under the front of the cabs which also server as a means of clipping, on the kick base. Whether custom or not makes no real difference. Cabs are going to generally have recessed base kicks, and they can be temp set level, marked, scribed and set final. It looks nicer, requires no trim, is easy as pie (less time and $$$ that adding molding to cover gaps and shim ends, and finishing that), and is more stable. There is no down side to doing it right. I admit that most of what I have removed from homes was done wrong.

I agree with your backsplash argument, in fact I said it first.

The countertop scribing is unnecessary if the backsplash is thicker than the widest gap between the walls and countertops.

Some applications (the nicer ones imo) involve no backsplash. I simply like the seamless look. I also do not like the look of base shoe, so scribing to the floor is the only good looking option to me. Shims crush over time, as do the cabinet materials where the shims are. So are less stable than a scribed edge that touches the floor for it's entire length, if the base is actually bearing any real weight.

Cabinets are funny. You are essentially mounting perfect boxes inside an imperfect box. There are lots of ways of serviceably doing it, but only one right way imo. I don't have any time for gaps on installs than I do for gaps in builds, you couldn't get a sheet of paper between something I scribed to something else, and that looks nice.

As far as the OP goes, I just said tile the floor if possible. I AM assuming here that he means structural tile. If you do the whole floor right, it is impervious to water, and even in a major leak, nothing would get to any rooms below. Between that and the manageability of moving appliances, or the ability to change cabinets without re-re-flooring, it is a minor plus.

Tiling over wood underlayment is a no no, so I was hoping he was doing a complete gut job, and he is. In that even you need concrete board minimum unless you want to go Hoyle and pour concrete, which is then, perfectly level and does not move.