*Kitna named Superbowl MVP!* Official NFL 2013 Postseason thread

[zinfamous]

Yeah, it came up but I don't think they had a pic

Not sure why anybody would do that when there's so many slowmo cameras around that'll show how stupid you look.

did it work, though?

 

[zinfamous]

I actually think SSSnail has a fair point. If you can only save a couple seconds, then save your timeout just in case something favorable happens under 2 minutes. We've seen times when teams get cute and throw an incomplete pass that stops the clock. If you force a miracle turnover on the next play, the game clock also stops for free.

that's true, but the odds of something favorable happening on any given play are more or less exactly equal before the 2 minute warning as they are after.

the major factor, and what really matters, is that you have a different DOWN situation coming back from the 2 minute warning. Trusting your defense--and you really have to trust your defense to their job, just as you do offense--you expect to force the team to burn an entire down in 2 seconds.

that's extremely important. downs versus time.

But by that point, SD was playing strip ball strategy all the way. It was their best chance after their final score, because they really should not have tried a 2nd onsides kick (and they didn't). Even then--defense was giving the game back, until that 3rd down blunder.

still, you trust your defense on those calls.

but you never expect the other team to "be cute" and throw a pass because they are stupid. Sure, that happens, but only stupid people do it. And only stupider coaches and football players (the losing team int this example) would expect [of the offense] that to happen, thus calling the timeout after the 2min warning

that is probably, the only reason to make that call. it is the only way that the team would gain a mathematical benefit to calling a TO after the warning. And one only expects that of stupid teams. Therefore, you never do that shit at the professional level. ever.

 

[zinfamous]

IIRC, it was Denver's second down when they ran that play and got first down anyways

nope.

ah, so this is the problem. you weren't paying attention.

 

[zinfamous]

If you call a time out at 2:02 you've gifted the other team a chance to *pass* instead of running, because an incomplete pass will have no bearing on the clock. It's stopping after the play regardless. Saving 2 seconds isn't worth giving the other team a better chance of getting a first down.

It is still a loss of downs. that is why you do it.

If they get the first down on that 2 second play, it doesn't matter, and it wouldn't have mattered anyway, after the 2 minute warning.

the goal is to force them into a 2nd or 3rd down play after the 2 minutes warning.

It's really not a gift of any type of pass over a run play, in that situation. You are playing for downs, and that is why you make that call with 2 seconds to go

guys--yes, it's the end of the game with limited time outs, but the point of the call is that you are forcing downs. It is that situation that trumps time--well it doesn't trump time, but it is that moment where the losing team, on defense, gets the best opportunity from a down and clock perspective.

 

[Childs]

IIRC, it was Denver's second down when they ran that play and got first down anyways, so anything after that is pointless. If they didn't, then it'd be third down after the 2-minute warning, still plenty of opportunity for me to use that timeout. Like I said, if you're not planning on using that timeout, then you're playing to lose at that point because nothing will stop a clock after that, except for injuries and penalties hmm:...)

Answering the bolded - that's not the clock stoppage I was referring to, I was referring to the clock stoppage that I would eventually need AFTER I somehow got the turnover and ran some plays - for when my receivers are stopped inbound - for instance. Anyways. I'm done with this topic.

Denver got a first down, then SD called the timeout at 2:02.

 Timeout #3 by SD at 02:02.
1-10-SD 46 (2:02) (Shotgun) 18-P.Manning pass short left to 88-D.Thomas to SD 43 for 3 yards (31-R.Marshall).
Two-Minute Warning
2-7-SD 43 (1:57) (Shotgun) 27-K.Moreno right guard to SD 37 for 6 yards (91-K.Reyes).
Timeout #2 by DEN at 01:12.
3-1-SD 37 (1:12) 27-K.Moreno up the middle to SD 32 for 5 yards (29-S.Wright).
1-10-SD 32 (:36) 18-P.Manning kneels to SD 33 for -1 yards.
END GAME

The only way SD doesnt use that timeout in that spot is if its 3rd down, and obviously 4th down. Its all about getting the ball back and preserving time. SD's only chance was forcing a punt and either getting a block, or a decent return (not gonna happen on the SD 37), or work the side lines a couple of times to set up a hail mary. They still had a shot to get the ball with around 30 sec left had they stopped them. They are gonna have to use the timeout to get the ball back in any scenario. They just saved a couple of secs.

If you call a time out at 2:02 you've gifted the other team a chance to *pass* instead of running, because an incomplete pass will have no bearing on the clock. It's stopping after the play regardless. Saving 2 seconds isn't worth giving the other team a better chance of getting a first down.

That was risky though. I was surprised he actually passed it. Most teams wouldnt have, because of the risk of a bad shotgun snap, interception or sack. SD was in a bad spot anyway, and the only thing they can really do is play the percentages. They have to think Denver would run three times to eat the clock, and SD would force a punt. Even if SD had 3 timeouts it wouldnt have mattered since they couldnt stop Denver from getting first downs. Denver converted 3 3rd downs in the last 4 mins.

 

[manly]

It is still a loss of downs. that is why you do it.

If they get the first down on that 2 second play, it doesn't matter, and it wouldn't have mattered anyway, after the 2 minute warning.

the goal is to force them into a 2nd or 3rd down play after the 2 minutes warning.

It's really not a gift of any type of pass over a run play, in that situation. You are playing for downs, and that is why you make that call with 2 seconds to go

guys--yes, it's the end of the game with limited time outs, but the point of the call is that you are forcing downs. It is that situation that trumps time--well it doesn't trump time, but it is that moment where the losing team, on defense, gets the best opportunity from a down and clock perspective.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The point all along is if you call your (last) TO after the 2 minute warning, you're no worse off except you may have lost two seconds. It'll still be the same down it would have been anyway. Although admittedly we've seen a lot of crazy shit happen in the last decade or so, this isn't the NBA and 2 seconds generally doesn't change outcomes.

However, if crazy shit happens and a team gets one last chance to drive and tie, having a timeout left is strategically valuable.

The debate here is whether to think tactically (save my precious 2 seconds) or strategically. A lot of coaches do more of the former when it's conservative and accepted practice. Some of the more successful ones have "gambled" more in recent years but I'm pretty sure they do it fully knowing/believing they actually have an edge. It doesn't matter if you're still fucked 99% of the time, you must try to make optimal decisions.

 

[SSSnail]

You know what, you guys were right. I mean why even bother keeping that one timeout you have left within the 2 minute anyways. I've never seen a team needing a timeout after the two minute warning to stop the clock drive down the field to either win or tie the game anyways, ever (They probably didn't think they're gonna get the ball back, amirite?). A few times that I've seen it this season, it's probably because they didn't care about the darn timeout anyways, and love performing laterals because that shit is FUN!

Carry on.

Edit: I just realized that some of you need to learn the differences between the game clock, and the play clock and how the two work.

 

[mugs]

It is still a loss of downs. that is why you do it.

You don't eat up any more downs by taking the time out before the 2 minute warning. You shift one down from before the 2 minute warning to after the 2 minute warning, but because you have that time out you would have spent, the down takes only the time it takes, not 40+ seconds. There is no difference in downs. Atomic Playboy showed the two scenarios pretty clearly, there's no difference in downs consumed, only a very small difference on the clock.

It's really not a gift of any type of pass over a run play, in that situation. You are playing for downs, and that is why you make that call with 2 seconds to go

It absolutely is a gift of an opportunity to pass! If you call time out at 2:02, they can pass without having any impact on the clock. It's going to stop either way. If you save that time out and let them run the play after the 2 minute warning, now they can't pass without risking a free clock stoppage.

 

[Childs]

A few times that I've seen it this season, it's probably because they didn't care about the darn timeout anyways, and love performing laterals because that shit is FUN!

If they are at the point of doing laterals, what good is having a timeout? They are doing laterals because there is no time left on the clock. Maybe if they had that extra two seconds in addition to whatever they had when they snapped the ball, they could work the sidelines one more time and get close enough for a hail mary. I think the minimum to complete a 5 yard pass and get out of bounds is like 5 sec. 2 more sec is potentially another play.

 

[SSSnail]

Suppose I entertain you one last time on this subject, but 10 seconds and a timeout trying to get into field goal range (or a shot at end zone) is A LOT different than 10 seconds with no timeout. That's just one scenario.

 

[BUTCH1]

It's up to Brady to stop the second coming of Jesu... I mean Manning now! Please Tom, for everyone who has had to put up with all the Manningites this season!

If you've been watching the Patriots the last 4 weeks it won't be so much Tom as much as the power run game ans as Patriot lineman Logan Mankins said,"if it's working, why stop doing it". Something I noticed from last nights game, PM threw into the wind with great accuracy, something he was struggling with in the earlier game in Foxborough..

 

[Vapid Cabal]

If you've been watching the Patriots the last 4 weeks it won't be so much Tom as much as the power run game ans as Patriot lineman Logan Mankins said,"if it's working, why stop doing it". Something I noticed from last nights game, PM threw into the wind with great accuracy, something he was struggling with in the earlier game in Foxborough..

If the Patriots can run that effectively against the Broncos, Manning will need to put up some points...

 

[MetalMat]

To Cam's credit, he was (very lightly) kicked in the head so he was trying to draw a possible personal foul. Much like Lebron does the same shit, which is pretty funny when it doesn't work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1ZpGKC62qvs#t=22

Or Derek Jeter doing the same thing in baseball (but sold it great):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U9jttDSUCg

Cam needs to practice in front of a mirror.

Edit: Check out #38 by Jerome Simpson:
http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/08/flops-dives-sports-history-gifs-worst/jerome-simpson

Wtf!

Cam gets no credit for that bs. He has been flopping all season and this one just stole the academy award.

For Instance:
Miami Game - http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000286794/Did-Cam-Newton-flop

I can't wait for the NFL to turn into an arena football flopping league.

 

[lupi]

Wow what a lot of wasted space. The defense couldn't stop them on several third and long prior to getting to that point, what difference does it matter. And as noted by the conclusion of the game, the chargers could have had a hundred timeouts left and none of them would have mattered if you can't stip the other team from driving the length of the field.

 

[Nintendesert]

I think we can agree there are merits to both sides of the 2 minute warning timeouts. Either way it doesn't matter if your shit defense decides to keep blowing coverages on 3rd downs and can't get your offense the ball again.

 

[darkewaffle]

Well Saturday went the way I wanted it to 2/2, Sunday was 0/2.

I guess I'm rooting for a Hawks / Patriots superbowl. I just don't want the 49ers or Broncos to win it

 

[smackababy]

What is up with the strange times for Sunday? 3:00 and 6:30ET?

 

[HopJokey]

What is up with the strange times for Sunday? 3:00 and 6:30ET?

It is like that every year for the Conference Championship games. Better times for TV I guess.

 

[darkewaffle]

It is curious how that they use different times for conference v divisional but I would assume 3 & 6 are the best statistical "middle ground" times to reach the biggest audience.

 

[vi edit]

The NFL and TV networks are probably creaming themselves right about now...

Peyton vs Brady for AFC championship?
49'ers Seahawks and all the recent drama and history there between those two?

Good stuff!

 

[smackababy]

It just seems strange to change the times. If those were the best times, why would they not have all the games during those?

Maybe Goodell is conspiring with cable companies! Alex Smith wouldn't change the times on people.

 

[glenn1]

Broncos/Patriots should be good but I don't know about the other game. That game will either have the 49ers getting blown out or be an SEC defense fest with a final score of 3-9.

Opening line for SF-SEA is +3-3.5 SF with a 40 over/under. For DEN-NE it's +4.5-5 NE and 55. I'd probably take SEA and DEN and the under on those games, but I'm not excited about that action on either.

 

[MetalMat]

The NFL and TV networks are probably creaming themselves right about now...

Peyton vs Brady for AFC championship?
49'ers Seahawks and all the recent drama and history there between those two?

Good stuff!

I'm sure Goodell and his cronies popped the champagne open as soon as JT caught that pass in the 4th quarter

 

[smackababy]

I'm sure Goodell and his cronies popped the champagne open as soon as JT caught that pass in the 4th quarter

I don't see why it is such a bad thing though. I mean, the Denver / NE game is basically a continuation of the Colts / NE rivalry. The Manning vs Brady saga continues. And the SF / Seattle rivalry is alive and well (now that the division stopped being terrible for the past couple years).

The over/under seems incredibly high for SF vs Seattle I think. Especially with how Seattle has sputtered on offense as of late. I am okay with Denver vs NE though. I could easily see 27 to 28 being the final score.

 

[Perknose]

Maybe Goodell is conspiring with cable companies! Alex Smith wouldn't change the times on people.

This just in: Alex Smith is rumored to be the front runner to win the much coveted Alex Smith Trophy.