Know thy Enemy, Know thyself

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
I asked this question in another thread and it was never answered. I've seen this variations of this statement made over and over again. "The Dems are too far left".

Please will somebody on the right define this question once and for all so that we can have common ground from which to debate politics.

Define centrist please. Define what is right in US politics. What is left.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: GrGr
I asked this question in another thread and it was never answered. I've seen this variations of this statement made over and over again. "The Dems are too far left".

Please will somebody on the right define this question once and for all so that we can have common ground from which to debate politics.

Define centrist please. Define what is right in US politics. What is left.

You really expect the Religious Right Wing Radicals to answer your question???

They can't, people that can't think for themselves because they are brainwashed are no longer capable.

Forget about it.
 

assemblage

Senior member
May 21, 2003
508
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You really expect the Religious Right Wing Radicals to answer your question???
They can't, people that can't think for themselves because they are brainwashed are no longer capable.
Forget about it.
I'm not going to spend time and effort on this post to set myself up for personal attacks. But maybe you'll be lucky and someone else will jump into the snake pit.

 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
That wasn't my quote, assemblage. Please fix it.

But I find your reply typical of the right here. Do you really have so little confidence in your facts that you do not dare get involved in debates but believe stating your argument sets you up for "personal attacks"?

 

Chadder007

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,560
0
0
Originally posted by: lordtyranus
Joe Lieberman = centrist.

Too bad the Dems tore him apart saying he was too much like Bush, they bash the crap out of people in their own party that aren't all the way on the left right now. Its rediculous. The DNC Chair needs to step down and get the crap out of the way.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: Chadder007
Originally posted by: lordtyranus
Joe Lieberman = centrist.

Too bad the Dems tore him apart saying he was too much like Bush, they bash the crap out of people in their own party that aren't all the way on the left right now. Its rediculous. The DNC Chair needs to step down and get the crap out of the way.


Define "all the way to the left". Who are these mysterious left and what are their aims? What would the democratic party look like if "the crap got out of the way"?
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,863
68
91
www.bing.com
I dont think anyone can put a finger on the "center" of the political spectrum, everyones opinion of whats center differs, and theres no scientific way to define it.

It helps to realize the political spectrum I'snt really linear, its planar. So trying to fit everything into Left/Right is not descriptive enough, theres also Up/Down to be factored in.
 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
5,685
0
0
Also, there are single issues that polarize large groups of voters like abortion, gay marriage and gun rights. Peeps take sides based on one of those and almost regardless of the rest of the stances, cast their ballot.

For example, I like rudy guilani but because he's pro-choice, I'd never vote for him. Same with Swatzenager, like him but he's too far left and pro choice.

Other's that might be centrist could be considered but if they waffle on the right to life, large blocks of voters won't support them.

So, I'm not so sure it's a definition you want or need, it's a look at stances on key issues that sway masses, and a smaller number of peeps that look at a broader issue with no single issue automatically determining their vot.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: Gravity
Also, there are single issues that polarize large groups of voters like abortion, gay marriage and gun rights. Peeps take sides based on one of those and almost regardless of the rest of the stances, cast their ballot.

For example, I like rudy guilani but because he's pro-choice, I'd never vote for him. Same with Swatzenager, like him but he's too far left and pro choice.

Other's that might be centrist could be considered but if they waffle on the right to life, large blocks of voters won't support them.

So, I'm not so sure it's a definition you want or need, it's a look at stances on key issues that sway masses, and a smaller number of peeps that look at a broader issue with no single issue automatically determining their vot.


This is interesting. I also think it is more typical of the way right wing voters think when they vote. Right wingers vote on issues while left wingers vote on policies. Is that a fair assessment?

It seems to me that the dems can not do much to influence single issue voters. They will vote their issue regardless unless some real crisis forces these voters to abandon the single issue and look at the larger picture. Is that correct?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
The only way "centrist" can be defined is by assessing the political opinions in the US across the spectrum and subsequently bisecting the results. That is the center. The democrats are insisting they are being moved further to the right. Once again they don't perceive reality correctly. The Dems are not being moved, the center is moving, changing their political relationship with that center. As political opinions change throughout the US the center will remain dynamic. It always has been that way and always will be a moving target.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
"As political opinions change".

What drives that change? Is it the people or the politicians who set the political agendas? Is it right wing thinktanks like the Heritage Foundation "whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies" (direct quote from their homepage)?
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
GrGr, why do you keep posting this question?

the definitions are easily found on the web...

I think you last post really points toward what the intent of the thread is, to claim that the as CaptnKirk so glibly labeled the right as "sheep Boot-Breaking"' are having their opinions formulated by them by organizations like the Heritage Foundation.

Here's some definitions for you:

Centrist:

centrism usually refers to the political ideal of promoting moderate policies which land in the middle ground between different political extremes. Most commonly, this is visualized as part of the one-dimensional political spectrum of Left-Right politics, with centrism landing in the middle between left-wing politics and right-wing politics. However, there is arguably more than one dimension to politics, so even the center has its own radicals as exemplified by radical centrist politics.

Right:

In politics, right-wing, the political right, or simply the right, are terms which refer, with no particular precision, to the segment of the political spectrum in opposition to left-wing politics. It is usually, but not always, associated with conservatism. (See political spectrum and left-right politics for a detailed explanation and discussion of this kind of classification.)

Left:

In politics, left-wing, political left, or simply the left, are terms which refer (with no particular precision) to the segment of the political spectrum typically associated with any of several strains of socialism, social democracy, or liberalism (especially in the American sense of the word), or with opposition to right-wing politics. Communism (as well as the Marxist philosophy that it relies on) and anarchism are considered to be radical forms of left-wing politics. (See political spectrum and left-right politics for more on the merits/limitations of this kind of classification.) The terminology of left-right politics was originally based on the seating-arrangement of parliamentary partisans during the French Revolution. The more ardent proponents of radical revolutionary measures (including democracy and republicanism) were commonly referred to as leftists because they sat on the left side of successive legislative assemblies. As this original reference became obsolete, the meaning of the terms has changed as appropriate to the spectrum of ideas and stances being compared.

A comparison of the left & right:

Left-Right politics is the traditional terminology used to describe the two ideological poles of a political spectrum in a society, especially in a democracy.

In modern Western countries, the political spectrum usually is described along left-right lines. This traditional political spectrum is defined along an axis with Conservatism ("the right") on one end, and Socialism ("the left") on the other. (In the United States, the term Liberalism refers to a wide range of left-of-center politics; in Europe, this same term can refer to a wide range of center-right to left-of-center politics.) The term left and right was also used to describe politics in China starting in the 1920s until the 1980s, although the issues often were very different from the ones in Western nations.

& a link to Wikipedia & Google for you.
 

TapTap

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2001
1,043
0
0
Originally posted by: Chadder007
Originally posted by: lordtyranus
Joe Lieberman = centrist.

Too bad the Dems tore him apart saying he was too much like Bush, they bash the crap out of people in their own party that aren't all the way on the left right now. Its rediculous. The DNC Chair needs to step down and get the crap out of the way.


ditto.
Bill Richardson, Gov of New Mexico is another centrist.
The DNC keeps putting out Senators and Gov's from the Northeast, they will keep losing Presidential races. Americans dont IDENTIFY with the beliefs of "big Gov" and welfare entitlements anymore. They dont believe that tired old adage of "seniors wont get SS checks" "Tax cuts for the rich" blah blah.
Michael Moore won this election for Bush. He is full of shizzznit and 59+ million people saw thru it.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: GrGr
"As political opinions change".

What drives that change? Is it the people or the politicians who set the political agendas? Is it right wing thinktanks like the Heritage Foundation "whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies" (direct quote from their homepage)?

Writing a dissertation on what causes those changes and attempting to post it would probably peg out the AT servers. Change is driven by so many factors I doubt it's possible to even begin to list them all, not to mention that everyone forms their opinions using slightly different methods and in slightly different ways. That comes from the fact that even though all of us are fundamentally the same, we are also all different in nuanced ways.

iow, that's a semi-long-winded way of saying your question is unanswerable, imo.
 

ciba

Senior member
Apr 27, 2004
812
0
71
Originally posted by: GrGr
This is interesting. I also think it is more typical of the way right wing voters think when they vote. Right wingers vote on issues while left wingers vote on policies. Is that a fair assessment?

It seems to me that the dems can not do much to influence single issue voters. They will vote their issue regardless unless some real crisis forces these voters to abandon the single issue and look at the larger picture. Is that correct?

I think you get more "single issue" voters that vote democrat (abortion rights, gay marriage, etc). I think you get more multi-issue voters in the republican party. This doesn't reflect positively or negatively on the constituency, but rather the fact that conservative issues line up better than liberal ones. You find more rural christan gun owners than you find urban lesbians that need an abortion.

I think a lot of people vote for one party because "they always have." Some people vote democrat for president even though their important issues line up with Bush. You see this mostly in the black, jewish and gay vote.

Some of what we're seeing now is the South finally swinging away from the democrats. If the party doesn't reshape itself, they will only lose more senate seats in the upcoming elections.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Slate on msn has been having writers speculate as to why the Dems can't seem to win elections. Some of it is somewhat introspective and goes along with what I've been saying a little. James Carville is another that comes to mind. But there's also been a lot of stuff that's 180 degrees backwards, similar to the attitudes of many on P&N... it's a hardening of the extremist line, hating on Americans as stupid, racist, homophobic, and fascist. Blame blame blame... Like PK from the NYT.... they're so stuck in their alternate universe that their hate and arrogance cannot be broken.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Slate on msn has been having writers speculate as to why the Dems can't seem to win elections. Some of it is somewhat introspective and goes along with what I've been saying a little. James Carville is another that comes to mind. But there's also been a lot of stuff that's 180 degrees backwards, similar to the attitudes of many on P&N... it's a hardening of the extremist line, hating on Americans as stupid, racist, homophobic, and fascist. Blame blame blame... Like PK from the NYT.... they're so stuck in their alternate universe that their hate and arrogance cannot be broken.

jerome stfu with your crap, as if your side is absolutely flawless. There was just as much hatred from the Republican side this election, you hypocritical moron. The Democrats need to let God back into their party, and they need to find a way to avoid being trapped by wedge issues which the Republicans used so effectively. I could argue the same thing about alternate universes, when I see the hatred of gays that exists in the South.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
GrGr, why do you keep posting this question?

the definitions are easily found on the web...

I think you last post really points toward what the intent of the thread is, to claim that the as CaptnKirk so glibly labeled the right as "sheep Boot-Breaking"' are having their opinions formulated by them by organizations like the Heritage Foundation.

Here's some definitions for you:

Centrist:

centrism usually refers to the political ideal of promoting moderate policies which land in the middle ground between different political extremes. Most commonly, this is visualized as part of the one-dimensional political spectrum of Left-Right politics, with centrism landing in the middle between left-wing politics and right-wing politics. However, there is arguably more than one dimension to politics, so even the center has its own radicals as exemplified by radical centrist politics.

Right:

In politics, right-wing, the political right, or simply the right, are terms which refer, with no particular precision, to the segment of the political spectrum in opposition to left-wing politics. It is usually, but not always, associated with conservatism. (See political spectrum and left-right politics for a detailed explanation and discussion of this kind of classification.)

Left:

In politics, left-wing, political left, or simply the left, are terms which refer (with no particular precision) to the segment of the political spectrum typically associated with any of several strains of socialism, social democracy, or liberalism (especially in the American sense of the word), or with opposition to right-wing politics. Communism (as well as the Marxist philosophy that it relies on) and anarchism are considered to be radical forms of left-wing politics. (See political spectrum and left-right politics for more on the merits/limitations of this kind of classification.) The terminology of left-right politics was originally based on the seating-arrangement of parliamentary partisans during the French Revolution. The more ardent proponents of radical revolutionary measures (including democracy and republicanism) were commonly referred to as leftists because they sat on the left side of successive legislative assemblies. As this original reference became obsolete, the meaning of the terms has changed as appropriate to the spectrum of ideas and stances being compared.

A comparison of the left & right:

Left-Right politics is the traditional terminology used to describe the two ideological poles of a political spectrum in a society, especially in a democracy.

In modern Western countries, the political spectrum usually is described along left-right lines. This traditional political spectrum is defined along an axis with Conservatism ("the right") on one end, and Socialism ("the left") on the other. (In the United States, the term Liberalism refers to a wide range of left-of-center politics; in Europe, this same term can refer to a wide range of center-right to left-of-center politics.) The term left and right was also used to describe politics in China starting in the 1920s until the 1980s, although the issues often were very different from the ones in Western nations.

& a link to Wikipedia & Google for you.


I want to find out where to put the parties on the traditional scale. There is no real "socialism" (left) in US politics. Liberalism has moved further to the right while the Right has moved beyond Buchanan and he now looks like a moderate in comparison.

The basic premise is that the political right has shifted to the right during the last 30 or so years. Nixon was a rightwinger back in the day but now he would be a moderate. FDR would look like a Commie with his "new deal". Right wingers here keep referring to the "ultra left" of the democratic party when I do not think there actually exists an ultra left in US politics. The Ultra right on the other hand is alive and well and dominating US politics. Those who were the "crazies" in the 80's are now running US politics. On a Euro political scale these guys are in territory that has been reserved for the neonazis, racists and such unsavory characters.

The US political scale is different but how much further Right can the US go? Where does the scale end or will the US Right "boldly go where no-one has gone before"? If the Rabid Right is now the norm for right wing policies what happens if the move towards the right continues?



 

TMPadmin

Golden Member
Jul 23, 2001
1,886
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


You really expect the Religious Right Wing Radicals to answer your question???

They can't, people that can't think for themselves because they are brainwashed are no longer capable.

Forget about it.

A perfect example of a leftist liberal Radical. How would you like it if I called you a communist? Why do you generalize all republicans (or all those who voted Bush regardless of party affiliation) a "Religious Right Wing Radical"?
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: TMPadmin
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


You really expect the Religious Right Wing Radicals to answer your question???

They can't, people that can't think for themselves because they are brainwashed are no longer capable.

Forget about it.

A perfect example of a leftist liberal Radical. How would you like it if I called you a communist? Why do you generalize all republicans (or all those who voted Bush regardless of party affiliation) a "Religious Right Wing Radical"?


Can it be because all those who voted for Bush supported the Radical Religious Right :roll:
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
0
Right: fiscally conservative, less entitlements, workfare not welfare, and socially conservative (ie: old religion). In detail, this would mean that Cons. regard heavy tax policy as a waste, as well as most government centric programs. They are seen as being expensive and unnecessary, most people, give the right resources can do it themselves. Motto: teach a man to fish and he can feed his family for the rest of his life. Example: Christians, farmers, pro-states rights, etc...

Center: generally fiscally conservative and socially liberal - in moderation. Most people fall into this catagory, especially those in middle age. Motto: none. Example: almost every non ultra religious or neo-hippy person between 30 and 60. Union workers, housewives, normal people.

Liberal: fiscally liberal and socially liberal. The idea is that the government is the ultimate solution to all problems. People inherently cannot fend for themselves, and if they happem to actaully succeed, they owe it to others. States should have few (if any) rights. Motto: give a man a fish and he eats for a day - then he also depends soley on your handout for food. Example: neo-hippy and anti capitalists, college professors (real world drop-outs), coastal elites.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Right: fiscally conservative, less entitlements, workfare not welfare, and socially conservative (ie: old religion). In detail, this would mean that Cons. regard heavy tax policy as a waste, as well as most government centric programs. They are seen as being expensive and unnecessary, most people, give the right resources can do it themselves. Motto: teach a man to fish and he can feed his family for the rest of his life. Example: Christians, farmers, pro-states rights, etc...

Center: generally fiscally conservative and socially liberal - in moderation. Most people fall into this catagory, especially those in middle age. Motto: none. Example: almost every non ultra religious or neo-hippy person between 30 and 60. Union workers, housewives, normal people.

Liberal: fiscally liberal and socially liberal. The idea is that the government is the ultimate solution to all problems. People inherently cannot fend for themselves, and if they happem to actaully succeed, they owe it to others. States should have few (if any) rights. Motto: give a man a fish and he eats for a day - then he also depends soley on your handout for food. Example: neo-hippy and anti capitalists, college professors (real world drop-outs), coastal elites.

Irwincur: Typical right-winger with stereotypical views of politcal ideologies he knows nothing about. Next.
 

TMPadmin

Golden Member
Jul 23, 2001
1,886
0
0
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: TMPadmin
Originally posted by: dmcowen674


You really expect the Religious Right Wing Radicals to answer your question???

They can't, people that can't think for themselves because they are brainwashed are no longer capable.

Forget about it.

A perfect example of a leftist liberal Radical. How would you like it if I called you a communist? Why do you generalize all republicans (or all those who voted Bush regardless of party affiliation) a "Religious Right Wing Radical"?


Can it be because all those who voted for Bush supported the Radical Religious Right :roll:


If you think about your statement and step out of your bubble I think you will realize you are wrong.
 
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