kyro 2 at cheap prices !!!

[powervr2]

Innovision will sell kyro 2 at 115 us$ ???
you know what that mean...
70 us$ for 64 mbs kyro 2 oem...


Hong Kong 4th June, 2001 --- InnoVISION Multimedia is excited to announce the second in a series of 3D graphic accelerator based on the innovative architecture KYROII 3D processor from STMicroelectronics and Imagination Technologies' PowerVR? Series3 technology - the Inno3D KYRO II 4500. This 3D accelerator combines breathtaking 3D graphics image quality, stunning 3D graphics performance and super crisp 2D Graphics. It also delivers studio quality Video Playback and DVD decode support. The Inno3D KYRO II 4500 features the best of tile based rendering and offers the ultimate experience to the whole gaming community at a fraction of the price.

ST's new KYRO II utilizes revolutionary PowerVR Tile Based Rendering and Deferred Texturing to avoid the memory bottleneck and deliver excellent image quality combined with stunning graphics performance. KYRO II built -in the unique 3D features such as, fast 128-bit 2D acceleration, video acceleration including high quality scaling and hardware motion compensation, full featured 3D acceleration for both DirectX and OpenGL, Full Screen Anti-Aliasing, 8-Layer Multi-texturing, 32-bit Internal True Color and Direct3D Environmental Bump Mapping which establishes KYRO II as one of the best 3D solutions in the market.

KYRO II's Tile Based Rendering makes extremely efficient use of the available memory bandwidth, it can be shown that the PowerVR Tile Based Rendering technology requires less than one third of the memory bandwidth required by conventional 3D accelerators. This frees content developers to focus on realistic environments rather than having to resort to programming tricks to reduce scene complexity and image quality, which are required to improve frame rate with traditional 3D accelerators. In summary, the Inno3D KYRO II 4500 is a smart and clever design where economic use is made of all the resources, unlike the traditional brute-force designs which must be coupled with expensive yet inefficiently used memory architectures.

The Inno3D KYRO II 4500 delivers superior levels of realism, high frame rates, unprecedented image quality and performance, with the cost advantage of the PowerVR tiling architecture over conventional 3D which makes it an affordable graphic solution with no compromise for serious gamers . The Inno3D KYRO II 4500 has full support for both Microsoft DirectX 7 and OpenGL 3D graphics APIs. It will ship with fully optimized drivers for Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000.

Volume production of Inno3D KYRO II 4500 will be ready from now. Inno3D KYRO II 4500 will hit the market with a configuration with 64MB Memory and TV-output capability optional. MSRP for 64MB retail version with active cooler is at US$115

 

[Mingon]

I doubt it will go much below $100. I still think its a bit of a 'strange' card, its budget aimed yet needs a non-budget cpu ?
The question is will it be a viable solution with the new crush chipset out soon ? For people looking to upgrade a video card its cheap, but performance only comes at a higher cpu MHZ. for people with a low CPU the cheapest upgrade will probably be the crush chipset and a circa 750mhz duron and 2 ddr memory sticks.

 

[UKtaxman]

I'm afraid I don't agree on that one. I consider this to be a performance card at a budget price and not a budget card at a budget price. I think that we are all being ripped off with the amounts we pay for our performance gear and STM have released their card at a more reasonable level.

 

[Mingon]

But most of the benchmarks show its performance is between mx and gts level and its price is the same, with a low level cpu it loses to the mx.

 

[Teasy]

It doesn't matter what CPU you have when your using any decent resolution the Kyro II will walk all over the MX because its far more powerful. Anyway the whole point of your argument is that the Kyro II is a budget card so if it needs a expensive CPU to work well then whats the point. But your argument falls appart since a Duron 700 or 800 can be bought for almost nothing these days and that CPU is easily enough to feed the Kyro II.

Why do you think the INNO3D Kyro II won't be sold for under $100?, please give somesort of logic to back up your opinion. The Hercules Kyro II has an MSRP of $149 and sells for as low as $109 and the INNO3D Kyro II has a MSRP of $115. Using the same MSRP to retail price drop that the Herc 4500 had the INNO3D Kyro II 64mb should sell for around $75. It may not sell that cheap straight away but it will certainly sell for under $100 IMO.

 

[Mingon]

You cannot compare previous price drops between oem and retail, the newer price just means they have lowered their profit margin and doesnt mean they have the same profit buffer to use. I just dont think that the 64mb card could get much cheaper, I know its not an expensive card to make but even so once the retailers put their 10% profit on and the wholesalers I just cant see it going much lower for the time being.

Aceshardware test
This article shows the difference in cpu-power that effects the KyroII, from the review it looks like anything less than an 850 duron is a lot slower, this is equivalent to a what 800 athlon/pIII thats a lot of users to be missing out on decent performance. It obvious that the lack of hardware tnl is effecting the KyroII on slower machines and its software TnL is not that good.

Hardware TnL versus a 1.4ghz athlon in sotware mode
The above is a good read as well

 

[TravisBickle]

heh, I remember someone talking crap about how we couldn't count on a price cut on the Kyro II. like of course not, it has such a big die and expensive memory, huh?
Kyro II might not be best if you insist on keeping an old CPU, but that's not me I'm afraid
the PowercolorVR line is coming of age in PCs. but what we all need is more feedback from users on how they are getting on in games.

 

[Mingon]

I never said it wouldnt be cut, I just dont think it can go much lower, why should it ? its priced where its peformance seems to put it. I doubt that the Kyro can get many major oem deals so it will have to go for the retail sector. Blimey I am getting attacked on all fronts from the 4 biggest kyro II fans. ( just for the sensitive teasy)

 

[powervr2]

It is doing great with my duron 800 overclocked to 900

I am playing mdk2 at 1280x1024x32 and giants (most of the time is smooth) in 1024x768x16 at 2XFSAA (I had to drop one or two options on Giants to gain more smoothness )

and those are 2 T&L games...
black&white is gorgeous at 1024x768x32... (although I think inside the temple needs a little more fill rate)
seriousy sam is great with kyro 2

the only problem that I saw was with BOB I check the force texture compression and all went well..

I already tested 25 games...
they all ran without any flaws at 1024x768x32 ...
all older games the only newer games tested were mdk2,black&white,giants,seriously sam

sometimes I need to check force texture compression to gain massive improvements in FPS.

 

[TravisBickle]

to mingon: I wasn't talking about you actually, I'm not arguing with you at all. I'm talking about a month old comment when Kyro II was slated for $150

 

[powervr2]

"I doubt that the Kyro can get many major oem deals so it will have to go for the retail sector"

why not?
kyro 2 prices will get to geforce 2 mx levels, so why not put a better 3d card instead of MX ???


the price of video cards are way to high... look at the cpu prices... cheap, nvidia is ripping us all, don't you agree with me?

 

[Mingon]

<< the price of video cards are way to high... look at the cpu prices... cheap, nvidia is ripping us all, don't you agree with me >>



Sorry cannot agree with this at all, people have been jumping on the bash nvdia bandwagon recently, and for what reason ? They have consistently delivered their products, they have pushed the borders of graphics technology on at a quicker rate than most companies are unwilling or unable to follow. Look at the crush/nforce chipset, have you seen a better intergrated motherboard than that ? or would you prefer the KM133 or even better the 810E. People had a go at nvdia about the 2d and what did they do? they listened and from now forward it shouldnt be a problem, people moaned about the hardware being brute force and so they introduced the geforce3 and still people moaned, the geforce 3 was to expensive they whinged, yet look out at the cost of the geforce3 compared to voodoo2sli on there respective introduction. Lets face it in the world of computing nasties they are nowhere near Rambus and yet still people have a moan.

 

[powervr2]

I tihnk that nvidia is even slowing down the progress of games.
they sell geforce 2mx and tnt-2 only because there are many out there that associate geforce 3 with geforce 2 mx/tnt. 90% of nvidia sells are from geforce 2 mx and tnt-2 . Do you think that game developers will make games to only 10% of nvidia users?
...no...
so what we will have ?
mediocre games that could be a lot better...

 

[TravisBickle]

you are saying that games are not as advanced as possible because people will insist on buying cheap video cards from a name they recognize.
I am sure nvidia are very naughty boys for giving people what they want...

 

[pidge]

<< &quot;I doubt that the Kyro can get many major oem deals so it will have to go for the retail sector&quot;

why not?
kyro 2 prices will get to geforce 2 mx levels, so why not put a better 3d card instead of MX ???


the price of video cards are way to high... look at the cpu prices... cheap, nvidia is ripping us all, don't you agree with me? >>



Stability is what OEM's look for and versatility. I believe across the line in the number of software applications out there (games, workstation, office applications, multimedia), the Geforce 2 MX has the KyroII beat. So the Geforce 2 MX would be a better solution. I don't think they would mind losing a few FPS to get less customers calling in to their tech support line and ruining their company name. I am not saying necessarily that the KyroII is an unstable card but the Geforce 2 MX has a proven track record and alot of the big OEM's are not going to risk angering their customers over a few FPS. Most of their customers I am sure do not play games anyways.



<< they sell geforce 2mx and tnt-2 only because there are many out there that associate geforce 3 with geforce 2 mx/tnt. 90% of nvidia sells are from geforce 2 mx and tnt-2 . Do you think that game developers will make games to only 10% of nvidia users?
...no...
so what we will have ?
mediocre games that could be a lot better... >>



They make their games scalable. People with Geforce 2 MX 200/TNT2's play games at lower resolutions with the features turned down. There is still enough reason for these customers to upgrade since the Geforce 3 offers much better performance and amazing eye candy with the same software that they could not get with the Geforce 2 MX/TNT2. That is why you have so many graphic settings in games, to make sure you can run the game if you have an older card by turning off certain features.

And if you look at the features of both cards, you can get a 32MB Geforce 2 MX with TV out for around $85 and a Geforce 2 MX 400 64MB with TV out for around $100. This puts the Geforce 2 MX at around the same price, much less if they go with a 32MB and decide to take out the TV capability. I've worked for Intel before and their OEM's and I know how their OEM customers think. I don't believe the Kyro II will gain much OEM support for the same reasons that 3dfx didn't.

 

[rickn]

as long as the card/drivers are WHQL approved and the company can save a few bucks, they will use it. STm is a pretty big company, they can certainly get their products into a few OEM deals if they so desired.

 

[Teasy]

<<<I never said it wouldnt be cut, I just dont think it can go much lower, why should it ? its priced where its peformance seems to put it. I doubt that the Kyro can get many major oem deals so it will have to go for the retail sector. Blimey I am getting attacked on all fronts from the 4 biggest kyro II fans.>>>

Attacked?, so did PowerVR2 attack you by posting this thread in the first place? Because up until the post I'm replying to now that was his only post. Have I attacked you by asking you to actually back up your argument with some semblence of fact?

Lets come back to this thread in a couple of weeks when INNO3D Kyro II boards are on Pricewatch and we'll then see how much they sell for.

As for the CPU scaling tests of Aces, what sort of tests are they anyway? to check for CPU scalling they've benched the game at 1024x768x32??? The MX is far more fillrate limited then any of the other cards therefore upping the CPU speed doesn't help the speed of the card much thats pretty elimentary stuff there. No doubt lack of HW T&amp;L does have something to do with it especially in such a rarely T&amp;L limited game as MDK2, but the test was very flawed indeed.

Also there's another way to look at this, with a Kyro II you can get a card now thats fast at high res and when you upgrade your CPU you'll actually see some performance increase even at high res (it scales really well with better CPU's) unlike the MX since its so fillrate/bandwidth limited.

 

[hawkeye1975]

ok...so cpu power is needed for kyro 2....this gives me somthing I have to think about. What's the best video card I can buy for my p3 500? Keeping in mind I want a sub $150 card. Should I not even conscider the kyro 2?

Thanks

 

[Mingon]

Talk about not being able to take a joke, lets face it tho anyone who runs a fan site must be a fan? I am sorry for pointing out something in fun but yourself, uktaxman and powervr2 are the biggest poster of pro-kyro info, there is nothing wrong with that but sometimes you must try to remain unbiased to people who put forward a decent argument.

And as for upgrading a cpu latter on thats a good point but by then you will probably need a 'proper' dx9 card and the need to upgrade the card will again crop up (to a kyro III or whatever). I would suggest you try to look at the kyro card slight more subjectively, yes they are a nice card with a good turn of speed but unfortunately I think they missed their chance. By the time they release a truly competitive card, one which could win OEM contracts the X-box will have been released and we will be well on the way to the nv25/nv30 or radeon 2.

 

[Mingon]

<< I tihnk that nvidia is even slowing down the progress of games. >>



What? Wasnt it Nvdia who pretty much descided the directx8 spec which the x-box will use, surely this will mean even more games making it onto the pc? and as from TNT upwards they use the same drivers will it matter? All of the interview I have seen with games designers pretty much say the same thing, that is that they take the current highest spec machine at pre game design stage and say that it will be the average spec when the game will be released.
Personally I have had the tnt2, voodoo3000, gef 1,2 and ultra and the voodoo5500 and out of all of them I would say that the best is my elsa ultra without question, it has everything speed 2d quality VIVO and 3d glasses. Mind you I lke this best cause it only cost me £5 delivery

 

[Killrose]

It will be $75.00 Someday for the Full Retail version...I garantee it.

 

[TechieJ]

I tend to also believe that Kyro II based cards will end up below $85 for retail versions. With manufacturers such as Innovision, VGA No1 (ppl who broke off from PowerColor who are known for their extremely low cost accelerator solutions), and Creative Labs (the company known for their high quality video accelerators with cut throat prices), it's hard to argue that Kyro II solutions will not be offered for even lower prices than MX based solutions.

Unfortunately, I needed a video card for my computer upgrade within the range of 80 bux. From the reviews all over the net, the Radeon LE solution out values GeforceMX cards by far, so that purchase was a no brainer. It's only a matter of time however, that Kyro II solutions will drop down to obscenely low prices difficult for even the Radeon LE (although it performs the same as the regular Radeon DDR) to withstand.

 

[ADxS]

I don't see any reason why a Kyro2 couldn't drop to the same level a KyroI is at now - as of today that's $64 on Pricewatch. But then GeForce2 MXs can now be found as low as $48, which is cheaper still - by a third...

 

[AppleTalking]

Did anyone notice that this new product is named the Inno3D 4500 and the Hercules card is the 3D Prophet 4500. What's up with the 4500? Of course, there was also the infamous Voodoo4 4500 product as well.

As more manufacturers begin to produce Kyro II solutions, I think the price will gradually drop, as it does with all other products where there is competition. However, remember that the difference between the Hercules 3D Prophet ($149) and the Inno3D card ($119) is probably due to the fact that Hercules includes Myst III with the retail version of their card. It may not cost them much since they're buying the game in quantity, but it allows them to jack up the price of the retail card. That's why the OEM version costs almost $30 than the retail version: there's no Myst III included!!

Therefore, I doubt that Inno3D's OEM cards will fall much below the prices for the retail cards, assuming that there even is an OEM part in the first place.
Nevertheless, go Kyro!!

Nick

 

[AppleTalking]

Personally I have had the tnt2, voodoo3000, gef 1,2 and ultra and the voodoo5500 and out of all of them I would say that the best is my elsa ultra without question, it has everything speed 2d quality VIVO and 3d glasses. Mind you I lke this best cause it only cost me £5 delivery.

It's no small wonder that you like this card the best. Out of all the cards you mentioned, it's the fastest by a long shot!!



Despite the above comment, I do get your point about the different cards.

Nick