Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher recognition.

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Automation can be good, as long as displaced Workers have other avenues of Work. If not, Automation will eat itself in the longterm.

Impossible. Someone has to design and build and maintain the automations. So "displaced workers" who once toiled unskilled jobs on the assembly line now work better jobs as designers and engineers and mechanics building and supporting the automated machines.

Ya, some1. There are too many Workers to make into Automation Engineers. There will always be a need for Mass Employers, barring a population decrease.

The amount of wealth in the world is not fixed.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
You're off your rocker, Vic, if you seriously think more jobs are created via automation. That's the whole freaking point of automation: reducing the cost of labor via reducing headcount.

More profits are created and that's what we're seeing in this "recovery". Companies are making money and the execs along with it but the workers aren't seeing sh*t.

So fsckin' clueless... but, oh, do please continue spouting your misinformed luddite rhetoric.

These luddite primitivists would have us all living in caves. I wasn't aware until now how truly radical conjur is. Not only a social democratic socialist but a luddite and a primitivist. Wow.


I wonder how his friendship with Dave works out. Afterall, Dave is in IT, a sector that is all about automation.

 

[morrisbj]

I don't believe that labor is necessarily superior of capital, but in many cases it is overlooked. Any business requires both. Without capital, there is no work for labor. Without labor, capital stagnates and doesn't grow. The problem is that some companies are trying to cut labor as far out of the equation as possible (not through automation, but through wage slavery). Paying workers a living wage may cut into profits somewhat (not much), but it doesn't undercut a company's ability to do business, no matter what that company says.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Automation can be good, as long as displaced Workers have other avenues of Work. If not, Automation will eat itself in the longterm.

Impossible. Someone has to design and build and maintain the automations. So "displaced workers" who once toiled unskilled jobs on the assembly line now work better jobs as designers and engineers and mechanics building and supporting the automated machines.

Ya, some1. There are too many Workers to make into Automation Engineers. There will always be a need for Mass Employers, barring a population decrease.

The amount of wealth in the world is not fixed.

I agree, but fail to see how that applies.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Automation can be good, as long as displaced Workers have other avenues of Work. If not, Automation will eat itself in the longterm.

Impossible. Someone has to design and build and maintain the automations. So "displaced workers" who once toiled unskilled jobs on the assembly line now work better jobs as designers and engineers and mechanics building and supporting the automated machines.

Ya, some1. There are too many Workers to make into Automation Engineers. There will always be a need for Mass Employers, barring a population decrease.

The amount of wealth in the world is not fixed.

I agree, but fail to see how that applies.

Given a political and economic environment that allows for opportunity, each worker is free to become whatever he wills.

 

[Dissipate]

Troublemakers

Jonathan walked for several hours without a glimpse of any sign of life. Suddenly, something moved in the thicket and a small animal with a yellow-striped tail flashed down a barely visible track. "A cat," thought Jonathan. "Maybe it will lead to me to other life." He dived through the thick foliage.

Just as he lost sight of the beach and was deep in the jungle, he heard a sharp scream. He stopped, cocked his head, and tried to locate the source of the sound. Directly ahead, he heard another shrill cry for help. Pushing up an incline and through a mass of branches and vines, he clawed his way forward and stumbled onto a wider path.

As he rounded a sharp bend in the trail, Jonathan ran full tilt into the side of a burly man. "Out of my way, runt!" bellowed the man, brushing him aside like a gnat. Dazed, Jonathan looked up and saw two men dragging a young woman, kicking and yelling, down the trail. By the time he caught his breath, the trio had disappeared. Certain that he couldn't free the woman alone, Jonathan ran back down the trail looking for help.

A clearing opened and he saw a group of people gathered around a big tree?beating it with sticks. Jonathan ran up and grabbed the arm of a man who watched the others work. "Please sir, help!" gasped Jonathan. "Two men have captured a woman and she needs help!"

"Don't be alarmed," the supervisor said gruffly. "She?s under arrest. Forget her and move along, we've got work to do."

"Arrest?" said Jonathan, still huffing. "She didn't look like, uh, like a criminal." Jonathan wondered, if she was guilty, why did she cry so desperately for help? "Pardon me, sir, but what was her crime?"

"Huh?" snorted the man with irritation. "Well, if you must know, she threatened the jobs of everyone working here."

"She threatened people's jobs? How'd she do that?" asked Jonathan.

Glaring down at his ignorant questioner, the supervisor motioned for Jonathan to come over to a tree where workers busily pounded away at the trunk. Proudly, he said, "We are tree workers. We knock down trees for wood by beating them with these sticks. Sometimes a hundred people, working round-the-clock, can knock down a good-sized tree in less than a month." The man pursed his lips and carefully brushed a speck of dirt from the sleeve of his handsomely cut coat.

"That Drawbaugh woman came to work this morning with a sharp piece of metal attached to the end of her stick. She cut down a tree in less than an hour?all by herself! Think of it! Such an outrageous threat to our traditional employment had to be stopped."

Jonathan's eyes widened, aghast to hear that this woman was punished for her creativity. Back home, everyone used axes and saws for cutting trees. That's how he got the wood for his own boat. "But her invention," exclaimed Jonathan, "allows people of all sizes and strengths to cut down trees. Won't that make it faster and cheaper to get wood and make things?"

"What do you mean?" the man said angrily. "How could anyone encourage an idea like that? This noble work can?t be done by any weakling who comes along with some new idea."

"But sir," said Jonathan, trying not to offend, "these good tree workers have talented hands and brains. They could use the time saved from knocking down trees to do other things. They could make tables, cabinets, boats, or even houses!"

"Listen, you," the man said with a menacing look, "the purpose of work is to have full and secure employment?not new products." The tone of his voice turned ugly. "You sound like some kind of troublemaker. Anyone who supports that infernal woman is trouble. Where are you from?"

"I don't even know Miss Drawbaugh and I don?t mean any trouble, sir. I'm sure you're right. Well, I must be going." With that, Jonathan turned back the way he came, hurrying down the path. His first encounter with the people of the island left him feeling very nervous.

From the adventures of Jonathon Gullible

Thought this was a great illustration of luddite mentality (especially the luddite mentality that is floating around this thread *cough*).

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
You're off your rocker, Vic, if you seriously think more jobs are created via automation. That's the whole freaking point of automation: reducing the cost of labor via reducing headcount.

More profits are created and that's what we're seeing in this "recovery". Companies are making money and the execs along with it but the workers aren't seeing sh*t.

Oh, please... profits are the reward of efficiency and productivity. It's not an evil conspiracy.

And the rewards go where, Vic? To the workers? No. To the execs running the show. Do they deserve rewards? Sure they do but they would get jack-sh*t without the workers making and shipping the product and providing support for it, if necessary. Do those workers get rewarded? Well, if you call earning wage that's not keeping pace with inflation while healthcare benefits and retirement benefits are being cut a reward, then I guess they're being rewarded heavily!

And here's an idea for you, if you're so against automation. How about we go back to the way things were before the industrial revolution. Completely unautomated. No machines at all. How many jobs now? How tenable your welfare state now?

Care to point out where I ever said I was against automation? Take your straw man and....

So fsckin' clueless... but, oh, do please continue spouting your misinformed luddite rhetoric.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Automation can be good, as long as displaced Workers have other avenues of Work. If not, Automation will eat itself in the longterm.

Impossible. Someone has to design and build and maintain the automations. So "displaced workers" who once toiled unskilled jobs on the assembly line now work better jobs as designers and engineers and mechanics building and supporting the automated machines.

Ya, some1. There are too many Workers to make into Automation Engineers. There will always be a need for Mass Employers, barring a population decrease.

The amount of wealth in the world is not fixed.

I agree, but fail to see how that applies.

Given a political and economic environment that allows for opportunity, each worker is free to become whatever he wills.

Money comes from?

The Political and Economic environment already exists, but the vast majority still require Work.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: conjur
And the rewards go where, Vic? To the workers? No. To the execs running the show. Do they deserve rewards? Sure they do but they would get jack-sh*t without the workers making and shipping the product and providing support for it, if necessary. Do those workers get rewarded? Well, if you call earning wage that's not keeping pace with inflation while healthcare benefits and retirement benefits are being cut a reward, then I guess they're being rewarded heavily!

The rewards go to the shareholders.
Something I didn't address before, you said: "That's the whole freaking point of automation: reducing the cost of labor via reducing headcount."
No, the whole freaking point of automation is to increase productivity. It does a company no good to reduce its headcount if it also reduces the amount its product volume as well.
An increase in automation is always a capital investment. Money is spent and spread, jobs are created.

Care to point out where I ever said I was against automation? Take your straw man and....

So you're just trolling the devils advocate?

to you too...

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
You're off your rocker, Vic, if you seriously think more jobs are created via automation. That's the whole freaking point of automation: reducing the cost of labor via reducing headcount.

More profits are created and that's what we're seeing in this "recovery". Companies are making money and the execs along with it but the workers aren't seeing sh*t.

Oh, please... profits are the reward of efficiency and productivity. It's not an evil conspiracy.

And the rewards go where, Vic? To the workers? No. To the execs running the show. Do they deserve rewards? Sure they do but they would get jack-sh*t without the workers making and shipping the product and providing support for it, if necessary. Do those workers get rewarded? Well, if you call earning wage that's not keeping pace with inflation while healthcare benefits and retirement benefits are being cut a reward, then I guess they're being rewarded heavily!

Rewards from automation certainly do go to workers. It allows their paychecks to go farther.

As for inflation and healthcare costs:

Source of inflation

One source of rising healthcare costs (of course there are many many others, all of them come from the government).

Point your rhetoric at the real sources of your qualms (the politicians and bureaucrats), not corporate execs.

Corporate execs enjoy perks from crony capitalism that is instituted by the very politicians you want to impose Marxist wealth re-distribution schemes.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
And the rewards go where, Vic? To the workers? No. To the execs running the show. Do they deserve rewards? Sure they do but they would get jack-sh*t without the workers making and shipping the product and providing support for it, if necessary. Do those workers get rewarded? Well, if you call earning wage that's not keeping pace with inflation while healthcare benefits and retirement benefits are being cut a reward, then I guess they're being rewarded heavily!

The rewards go to the shareholders.
Something I didn't address before, you said: "That's the whole freaking point of automation: reducing the cost of labor via reducing headcount."
No, the whole freaking point of automation is to increase productivity. It does a company no good to reduce its headcount if it also reduces the amount its product volume as well.
An increase in automation is always a capital investment. Money is spent and spread, jobs are created.

Rewards only go to the shareholders if a company's stock rises and the shareholders sell that stock while it's up or if the company pays out dividends. Does that happen in every case? No. Not by a long shot. Nice try, though.

Care to point out where I ever said I was against automation? Take your straw man and....

So you're just trolling the devils advocate?

to you too...

[/quote]How in the hell am I "trolling the devils [sic] advocate"?

I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: conjur

I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

Do you have any idea how many jobs have been 'eliminated' by automation since just a couple hundred years ago? I'll give you a clue, it is in the millions. By your doctrine everyone would be unemployed and broke by now. Empirically we know that is far from the case. You might want to revise your thesis.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: conjur
I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

You are amazing. Misinformed people like you are the reason why direct democracy can never work. You have no idea what you are talking about, just some brainwashed political ideology you want to push on everyone.

Automation -> productivity. Productivity -> growth. Growth -> job gain.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
You're off your rocker, Vic, if you seriously think more jobs are created via automation. That's the whole freaking point of automation: reducing the cost of labor via reducing headcount.

More profits are created and that's what we're seeing in this "recovery". Companies are making money and the execs along with it but the workers aren't seeing sh*t.

So fsckin' clueless... but, oh, do please continue spouting your misinformed luddite rhetoric.

These luddite primitivists would have us all living in caves. I wasn't aware until now how truly radical conjur is. Not only a social democratic socialist but a luddite and a primitivist. Wow.


I wonder how his friendship with Dave works out. Afterall, Dave is in IT, a sector that is all about automation.

Which is scary considering a few topics concerning IT within this forum he has been totally clueless.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

You are amazing. Misinformed people like you are the reason why direct democracy can never work. You have no idea what you are talking about, just some brainwashed political ideology you want to push on everyone.

Automation -> productivity. Productivity -> growth. Growth -> job gain.

I think dissipate deals with this pretty good as well. If what Conjur is trying to sayis true, we should have an unemployment rate well north of 5%.

Automation has allowed us as a society to move forward. No more do we need millions to toil in a steel mill or hand make items. Those jobs are done by a machine and the people who used to work them got jobs that support the machines or designs the product. Less manual work, higher pay, more productivity.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

You are amazing. Misinformed people like you are the reason why direct democracy can never work. You have no idea what you are talking about, just some brainwashed political ideology you want to push on everyone.

Automation -> productivity. Productivity -> growth. Growth -> job gain.

Yes, automation can increase productivity as machines can run 24/7 with some maintenance and lower operating costs by reducing headcount (labor). But, again, the point goes sailing high over your head. We've seen the numbers of this "recovery" and the job gains aren't there (unless you throw in the greatly increasing size of our government) and neither are the workers' wages (and certainly not the benefits). The only ones benefiting in this "recovery" are the corporate execs and political campaign funds.



As for Dissipate and Genx87, why do you insist on your trolling/threadcrapping ways that you know the mods have been cracking down on lately? IMO, vacations should be issued but that's just my $0.02.

 

[3chordcharlie]

I'm not sure that the discussion here is really what the OP had in mind. I think it perhaps has more to do with the idea that capital never starves, nor sweats, nor cares for its family.

When a piece of equipment is no longer profitable to maintain and use, you can throw it away with no remorse; when the same is true of an employee, there are still other considerations. None of which mean you should keep an unproductive employee, or one that can be profitably replaced; the biggest difference between reasonable, caring employers, and the sort that land their former employees in poverty is planning and communication.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

You are amazing. Misinformed people like you are the reason why direct democracy can never work. You have no idea what you are talking about, just some brainwashed political ideology you want to push on everyone.

Automation -> productivity. Productivity -> growth. Growth -> job gain.

I think dissipate deals with this pretty good as well. If what Conjur is trying to sayis true, we should have an unemployment rate well north of 5%.

Automation has allowed us as a society to move forward. No more do we need millions to toil in a steel mill or hand make items. Those jobs are done by a machine and the people who used to work them got jobs that support the machines or designs the product. Less manual work, higher pay, more productivity.

The US unemployment rate is over 5%. Don't forget, the method is no longer the same and it does not account for the drop in the labor participation rate and does not reflect those working multiple part-time jobs with no benefits for economic reasons.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

You are amazing. Misinformed people like you are the reason why direct democracy can never work. You have no idea what you are talking about, just some brainwashed political ideology you want to push on everyone.

Automation -> productivity. Productivity -> growth. Growth -> job gain.

Yes, automation can increase productivity as machines can run 24/7 with some maintenance and lower operating costs by reducing headcount (labor). But, again, the point goes sailing high over your head. We've seen the numbers of this "recovery" and the job gains aren't there (unless you throw in the greatly increasing size of our government) and neither are the workers' wages (and certainly not the benefits). The only ones benefiting in this "recovery" are the corporate execs and political campaign funds.



As for Dissipate and Genx87, why do you insist on your trolling/threadcrapping ways that you know the mods have been cracking down on lately? IMO, vacations should be issued but that's just my $0.02.

Sounds like you are getting testy. Maybe a timeout for yourself is needed as well.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: conjur
Yes, automation can increase productivity as machines can run 24/7 with some maintenance and lower operating costs by reducing headcount (labor). But, again, the point goes sailing high over your head. We've seen the numbers of this "recovery" and the job gains aren't there (unless you throw in the greatly increasing size of our government) and neither are the workers' wages (and certainly not the benefits). The only ones benefiting in this "recovery" are the corporate execs and political campaign funds.

So the specific example of the last 5 years, with all its other considerations, particularly government corruption, invalidates the general proof of 2 centuries?

As for Dissipate and Genx87, why do you insist on your trolling/threadcrapping ways that you know the mods have been cracking down on lately? IMO, vacations should be issued but that's just my $0.02.

Gots to toe the politically-brainwashed line here, eh? That's why P&N is such a wasteland now, you know. No dissenting opinions to the talking points of the extreme whacko angst-driven undergrad authoritarian left.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
I'm addressing your insinuation that automation does not result in job loss. That is a patently absurd suggestion.

You are amazing. Misinformed people like you are the reason why direct democracy can never work. You have no idea what you are talking about, just some brainwashed political ideology you want to push on everyone.

Automation -> productivity. Productivity -> growth. Growth -> job gain.

I think dissipate deals with this pretty good as well. If what Conjur is trying to sayis true, we should have an unemployment rate well north of 5%.

Automation has allowed us as a society to move forward. No more do we need millions to toil in a steel mill or hand make items. Those jobs are done by a machine and the people who used to work them got jobs that support the machines or designs the product. Less manual work, higher pay, more productivity.

The US unemployment rate is over 5%. Don't forget, the method is no longer the same and it does not account for the drop in the labor participation rate and does not reflect those working multiple part-time jobs with no benefits for economic reasons.

The unemployment rate is 5.0% as of november.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

You may want to provide us information on when they changed their participation rules. afaik the rules have been in place for a long time.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: conjur

As for Dissipate and Genx87, why do you insist on your trolling/threadcrapping ways that you know the mods have been cracking down on lately? IMO, vacations should be issued but that's just my $0.02.

How are we trolling and thread crapping? You can always tell when someone is losing an argument when they want to shut the other person(s) up.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: conjur

As for Dissipate and Genx87, why do you insist on your trolling/threadcrapping ways that you know the mods have been cracking down on lately? IMO, vacations should be issued but that's just my $0.02.

How are we trolling and thread crapping? You can always tell when someone is losing an argument when they want to shut the other person(s) up.

What I find interesting is it is never a person from the right side of the aisle who always brings up banning somebody.

And he is probably talking about his troll thread about the election. If he expected a serious discussion when he starts off his thread with liberal use of puppets and sheep then he really does live in an alternate reality.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: conjur

As for Dissipate and Genx87, why do you insist on your trolling/threadcrapping ways that you know the mods have been cracking down on lately? IMO, vacations should be issued but that's just my $0.02.

How are we trolling and thread crapping? You can always tell when someone is losing an argument when they want to shut the other person(s) up.

uh:

These luddite primitivists would have us all living in caves. I wasn't aware until now how truly radical conjur is. Not only a social democratic socialist but a luddite and a primitivist. Wow.


I wonder how his friendship with Dave works out. Afterall, Dave is in IT, a sector that is all about automation.

That's not trolling, threadcrapping, and outright personal attacks and even a callout all rolled into one?

 

[Genx87]

So back on topic why dont you respond to Dissipate, Vic, and I?