Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher recognition.

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Vic
Automation is a boon to everyone. How much would your car cost if every part were manufactured and assembled by hand? Your computer? How much more would your house cost if every board was hand-planed? Or there were no nail guns? Would you be willing to pay for these things, or would you just whine all the more about the evil corporations?

Hey, great--that car will cost next to nothing, but of course, nobody will have a job to be able to afford it (well, other than the CEOs and company presidents but I imagine that was the plan all along anyway)

Brilliant!!!

Now I'm curious, if no one can afford the products, then how does the business turn profit, and how do the "CEOs and presidents" become rich?

We are buying on borrowed money from equity. As all the worthless crap we buy becomes more and more expensive to buy we can borrow more and more against it. With every exchange everybody is raising their commission. The idea is to play the game such that you die with the most toys and owing the most borrowed money satisfied that we have never noticed the meaningless of our lives.

Overconsumption is a lifestyle choice.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Vic
Automation is a boon to everyone. How much would your car cost if every part were manufactured and assembled by hand? Your computer? How much more would your house cost if every board was hand-planed? Or there were no nail guns? Would you be willing to pay for these things, or would you just whine all the more about the evil corporations?

Hey, great--that car will cost next to nothing, but of course, nobody will have a job to be able to afford it (well, other than the CEOs and company presidents but I imagine that was the plan all along anyway)

Brilliant!!!

Now I'm curious, if no one can afford the products, then how does the business turn profit, and how do the "CEOs and presidents" become rich?

We are buying on borrowed money from equity. As all the worthless crap we buy becomes more and more expensive to buy we can borrow more and more against it. With every exchange everybody is raising their commission. The idea is to play the game such that you die with the most toys and owing the most borrowed money satisfied that we have never noticed the meaningless of our lives.

Overconsumption is a lifestyle choice.

As is the transformation of sheep into mutton....

How can anybody have free will when they don't even know who they are? Does Pavlov's dog salivate as a lifestyle choice. You may like the notion that you are free because of what is implicit in real freedom. Nobody is free who is unconscious of what they feel and then why they feel it. I press a button on my computer, and voilà, it opens windows all of it's own free will. I've seen a monkey at the circus do the same thing with it's organ. You see, it was born to play.

 

[Train]

I think moonbeam is an automated forum bot.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Train
I think moonbeam is an automated forum bot.

Nah, I'm just a Botswana Bee.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Train
I think moonbeam is an automated forum bot.

Nah, I'm just a Botswana Bee.

Well, I laughed. :laugh:

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Finality
Automation is key. Get used to it.

I employ just over 200 people and its a pain in the a$$ to deal with. Started replacing a lot of the automated stuff people do in one of my companies stuff and suprise suprise its faster cheaper and more reliable than people. Did I mention better quality as well?

Unfortunately you are now paying for Medicaid for the people you laid off. Plus increased costs for your own health insuracne. Not to mention you are losing potential customers.
I guess you would hope that one day we can automate everything. Then we can produce stuff the cheapest possible.
Except only two peope would still have income. The owner and the one person to push the machines button. Can't make money with only two potential customers.

You try to say you're smart and you have two degrees and all this stuff, and you go and write like that. Do you even know how to write a coherent paragraph? You just don't understand economics, there is *no way* you have an economics degree like you say.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Finality
Automation is key. Get used to it.

I employ just over 200 people and its a pain in the a$$ to deal with. Started replacing a lot of the automated stuff people do in one of my companies stuff and suprise suprise its faster cheaper and more reliable than people. Did I mention better quality as well?

Unfortunately you are now paying for Medicaid for the people you laid off. Plus increased costs for your own health insuracne. Not to mention you are losing potential customers.
I guess you would hope that one day we can automate everything. Then we can produce stuff the cheapest possible.
Except only two peope would still have income. The owner and the one person to push the machines button. Can't make money with only two potential customers.

You try to say you're smart and you have two degrees and all this stuff, and you go and write like that. Do you even know how to write a coherent paragraph? You just don't understand economics, there is *no way* you have an economics degree like you say.

From reading his posts, I doubt he has a High School degree.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Finality
Automation is key. Get used to it.

I employ just over 200 people and its a pain in the a$$ to deal with. Started replacing a lot of the automated stuff people do in one of my companies stuff and suprise suprise its faster cheaper and more reliable than people. Did I mention better quality as well?

Unfortunately you are now paying for Medicaid for the people you laid off. Plus increased costs for your own health insuracne. Not to mention you are losing potential customers.
I guess you would hope that one day we can automate everything. Then we can produce stuff the cheapest possible.
Except only two peope would still have income. The owner and the one person to push the machines button. Can't make money with only two potential customers.

You try to say you're smart and you have two degrees and all this stuff, and you go and write like that. Do you even know how to write a coherent paragraph? You just don't understand economics, there is *no way* you have an economics degree like you say.

From reading his posts, I doubt he has a High School degree.

High schools give degrees?

 

[Engineer]

Working as an Automation Engineer, I can confirm that there is not a 1 to 1 job replacment with automation. Tell that to the 45 people we just eliminated with one robot and several other pieces of equipment tied together. On top of that, it was cheaper to build auotmated than to build the 24 individual machines that would have been reqired for the cell.

Also tell that to the engineers, plant manager, quality personel, plant controller, janitors, operators, receptionist, etc. that were let go with the closing of another plant from a combination of automation and Mexican outsourcing.

Oh, and I've come to the conclusion that automation acutally saves jobs in this country to a certain degree. If the entire plant is shipped to Mexico or China, then all of the above listed people lose jobs. If the plant is automated, mostly operators are displaced while other retain their jobs. Engineering may even expand in this instance.

Oh, and if anyone decries that I dislike automation, I'll tell you that you're full of crap! I love the stuff....except for the long hours at times!

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Working as an Automation Engineer, I can confirm that there is not a 1 to 1 job replacment with automation. Tell that to the 45 people we just eliminated with one robot and several other pieces of equipment tied together. On top of that, it was cheaper to build auotmated than to build the 24 individual machines that would have been reqired for the cell.

Also tell that to the engineers, plant manager, quality personel, plant controller, janitors, operators, receptionist, etc. that were let go with the closing of another plant from a combination of automation and Mexican outsourcing.

Will do. I'll send them all postcards. It would be a great opportunity for them to learn some free market economic principles.

BTW, have you told your boss your views or are you just a closet luddite?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer
Working as an Automation Engineer, I can confirm that there is not a 1 to 1 job replacment with automation. Tell that to the 45 people we just eliminated with one robot and several other pieces of equipment tied together. On top of that, it was cheaper to build auotmated than to build the 24 individual machines that would have been reqired for the cell.

Also tell that to the engineers, plant manager, quality personel, plant controller, janitors, operators, receptionist, etc. that were let go with the closing of another plant from a combination of automation and Mexican outsourcing.

Will do. I'll send them all postcards. It would be a great opportunity for them to learn some free market economic principles.

BTW, have you told your boss your views or are you just a closet luddite?

Not sure what that means but I and my boss fully agree on how I feel and what I do. I'll be happy to give his number to let you discuss it with him.

What I forgot to mention in the above post that it was 45 Mexican's let go, not 45 US workers. Those Mexicans took the place of 25 people (yes, we seem to hire almost 2 to 1 Mexican labor vs US labor because of poor quality (more inspections, etc) and also a high turnover rate in Mexico) in the US. The next line will be located in the US because of the advancements in this line along with the price of shipping from Mexico to Canada and Michigan.


Edit: I just looked up luddite and you're full of crap. I love automationand new technology and all of the benefits they bring. Offshoring is another story.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer
Working as an Automation Engineer, I can confirm that there is not a 1 to 1 job replacment with automation. Tell that to the 45 people we just eliminated with one robot and several other pieces of equipment tied together. On top of that, it was cheaper to build auotmated than to build the 24 individual machines that would have been reqired for the cell.

Also tell that to the engineers, plant manager, quality personel, plant controller, janitors, operators, receptionist, etc. that were let go with the closing of another plant from a combination of automation and Mexican outsourcing.

Will do. I'll send them all postcards. It would be a great opportunity for them to learn some free market economic principles.

BTW, have you told your boss your views or are you just a closet luddite?

Not sure what that means but I and my boss fully agree on how I feel and what I do. I'll be happy to give his number to let you discuss it with him.

What I forgot to mention in the above post that it was 45 Mexican's let go, not 45 US workers. Those Mexicans took the place of 25 people (yes, we seem to hire almost 2 to 1 Mexican labor vs US labor because of poor quality (more inspections, etc) and also a high turnover rate in Mexico) in the US. The next line will be located in the US because of the advancements in this line along with the price of shipping from Mexico to Canada and Michigan.


Edit: I just looked up luddite and you're full of crap. I love automationand new technology and all of the benefits they bring. Offshoring is another story.

Why is offshoring another story? It is a crime for a company to want to cut costs?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Why is offshoring another story? It is a crime for a company to want to cut costs?

Did I say that? No. It's their business if they choose. It sucks, IN MY OPINION. I have no intention of changing my mind on that. Automate and make the US competitive all you want. Offshore to cheap labor partially inflated by undervalued currency and they can shove it.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Why is offshoring another story? It is a crime for a company to want to cut costs?

Did I say that? No. It's their business if they choose. It sucks, IN MY OPINION. I have no intention of changing my mind on that. Automate and make the US competitive all you want. Offshore to cheap labor partially inflated by undervalued currency and they can shove it.

Once again I fail to see how automation and offshoring are much different. In either case a firm is cutting costs to increase profits, which in turn reduces prices for consumers. Unless you think it is a good thing for consumers to have higher prices, how can you think this is a bad thing?

Cheap labor is what allows us as consumers to go to a store and get lower prices, and allows those in third world countries to earn for their families.

Whatever your intentions may be, you must realize that there might be an astronomically small chance that your reasoning is fallacious.

This article has an analysis of some possible fallacies in your reasoning

 

[Engineer]

I used to have somewhat of a problem with automation in that I was helping to eliminate jobs. I've taken the attitude that I'm saving US jobs (plant manager, engineers, a few operators, etc) by keeping plants alive in the US. It also helps to produce a product that can not only be sold here but sold abroad helping to somewhat check the trade imbalance. Offshoring shifs capital outside of the US and imports the cheapness of their "inappropriate" valued currencies and their lower costs of living (in US dollars). Bring the rest of the worlds currency up to an appropriate value (i.e. a loaf of bread costs the same around the world) and I might change my opinion of offshoring. Until then....**crickets**

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer
I used to have somewhat of a problem with automation in that I was helping to eliminate jobs. I've taken the attitude that I'm saving US jobs (plant manager, engineers, a few operators, etc) by keeping plants alive in the US. It also helps to produce a product that can not only be sold here but sold abroad helping to somewhat check the trade imbalance. Offshoring shifs capital outside of the US and imports the cheapness of their "inappropriate" valued currencies and their lower costs of living (in US dollars). Bring the rest of the worlds currency up to an appropriate value (i.e. a loaf of bread costs the same around the world) and I might change my opinion of offshoring. Until then....**crickets**

Inappropriately valued currencies? What is this nonesense?

Every job that can be offshored should be offshored. The laws of comparative advantage do not apply to just within the U.S., you know. According to your logic we should shut down interstate commerce, then commerce between cities, between neighborhoods and finally between households, until finally there is no trade at all and everyone ekes out a living with their bare hands.

Afterall if person in state A is willing to do a job cheaper than person in state B within the U.S. why does your argument not apply in that situation? Should 'off-stating' be disallowed as well? Someone in state A might be 'put out of work.'

And why is it that you only care about American jobs? What about the jobs of foreigners? They need jobs too.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer
I used to have somewhat of a problem with automation in that I was helping to eliminate jobs. I've taken the attitude that I'm saving US jobs (plant manager, engineers, a few operators, etc) by keeping plants alive in the US. It also helps to produce a product that can not only be sold here but sold abroad helping to somewhat check the trade imbalance. Offshoring shifs capital outside of the US and imports the cheapness of their "inappropriate" valued currencies and their lower costs of living (in US dollars). Bring the rest of the worlds currency up to an appropriate value (i.e. a loaf of bread costs the same around the world) and I might change my opinion of offshoring. Until then....**crickets**

Inappropriately valued currencies? What is this nonesense?

Every job that can be offshored should be offshored. The laws of comparative advantage do not apply to just within the U.S., you know. According to your logic we should shut down interstate commerce, then commerce between cities, between neighborhoods and finally between households, until finally there is no trade at all and everyone ekes out a living with their bare hands.

Afterall if person in state A is willing to do a job cheaper than person in state B within the U.S. why does your argument not apply in that situation? Should 'off-stating' be disallowed as well? Someone in state A might be 'put out of work.'

And why is it that you only care about American jobs? What about the jobs of foreigners? They need jobs too.

Create their own jobs. Not my problem. I've been through this with Stunt and have no intention of repeating it with you. My views stand. If you (or anyone else) doesn't like them, may your (and their) jobs be the first to go.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer
I used to have somewhat of a problem with automation in that I was helping to eliminate jobs. I've taken the attitude that I'm saving US jobs (plant manager, engineers, a few operators, etc) by keeping plants alive in the US. It also helps to produce a product that can not only be sold here but sold abroad helping to somewhat check the trade imbalance. Offshoring shifs capital outside of the US and imports the cheapness of their "inappropriate" valued currencies and their lower costs of living (in US dollars). Bring the rest of the worlds currency up to an appropriate value (i.e. a loaf of bread costs the same around the world) and I might change my opinion of offshoring. Until then....**crickets**

Inappropriately valued currencies? What is this nonesense?

Every job that can be offshored should be offshored. The laws of comparative advantage do not apply to just within the U.S., you know. According to your logic we should shut down interstate commerce, then commerce between cities, between neighborhoods and finally between households, until finally there is no trade at all and everyone ekes out a living with their bare hands.

Afterall if person in state A is willing to do a job cheaper than person in state B within the U.S. why does your argument not apply in that situation? Should 'off-stating' be disallowed as well? Someone in state A might be 'put out of work.'

And why is it that you only care about American jobs? What about the jobs of foreigners? They need jobs too.

Create their own jobs. Not my problem. I've been through this with Stunt and have no intention of repeating it with you. My views stand. If you (or anyone else) doesn't like them, may your (and their) jobs be the first to go.

Your views stand like a house of cards. If I can't do my job at a competitive wage, then yes I think it should go. I probably wouldn't be too happy for awhile, but once I got a new job I would be able to take advantage of the lower prices resulting from the 'offshoring' as well as everyone else.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Working as an Automation Engineer, I can confirm that there is not a 1 to 1 job replacment with automation. Tell that to the 45 people we just eliminated with one robot and several other pieces of equipment tied together. On top of that, it was cheaper to build auotmated than to build the 24 individual machines that would have been reqired for the cell.

How many people did it take to build the robot and all those other machines?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Engineer
Working as an Automation Engineer, I can confirm that there is not a 1 to 1 job replacment with automation. Tell that to the 45 people we just eliminated with one robot and several other pieces of equipment tied together. On top of that, it was cheaper to build auotmated than to build the 24 individual machines that would have been reqired for the cell.

How many people did it take to build the robot and all those other machines?

The same 6 people that's been there an average of 28 years (including my 13 years). There were "NO ADDITIONAL" people hired or contracted to do this project. Robots are purchased and thanks to one "great" price negotiator, their price has been chopped 60% (many others still pay full price) so that it's cheaper to install a robot than one year of standard US labor (including benefits for one person).

The same 30 toolmakers (average experience near 30 years) have displaced several thousand in the last few years. Not nearly as many as have been shipped to Mexico though (We have 9 plants in Northern Mexico now vs 0 about 7 years ago. We now only have 4 producing US plants - 9 a few years ago).

Edit: Forgot to mention that one of our tooling plants (skilled tradesmen and engineers) has already been shut down as automation houses in Mexico and China are being deployed for "US" projects. If anyone thinks that automation is creating jobs for only US engineers, etc. then think again. It's almost as soon to be "offshored" and "shipped in" as other items offshored.

P.S. One a side note, it would have taken more people (no hiring, just more tooling plant personel) to build the cell if it had not been automated as it would have taken 24 separate machines to process and test the parts "manually" without the automated pieces (8 pieces and one robot run with 3 sets of controls vs 24 machines and 24 sets of controls).

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer
I used to have somewhat of a problem with automation in that I was helping to eliminate jobs. I've taken the attitude that I'm saving US jobs (plant manager, engineers, a few operators, etc) by keeping plants alive in the US. It also helps to produce a product that can not only be sold here but sold abroad helping to somewhat check the trade imbalance. Offshoring shifs capital outside of the US and imports the cheapness of their "inappropriate" valued currencies and their lower costs of living (in US dollars). Bring the rest of the worlds currency up to an appropriate value (i.e. a loaf of bread costs the same around the world) and I might change my opinion of offshoring. Until then....**crickets**

Inappropriately valued currencies? What is this nonesense?

Every job that can be offshored should be offshored. The laws of comparative advantage do not apply to just within the U.S., you know. According to your logic we should shut down interstate commerce, then commerce between cities, between neighborhoods and finally between households, until finally there is no trade at all and everyone ekes out a living with their bare hands.

Afterall if person in state A is willing to do a job cheaper than person in state B within the U.S. why does your argument not apply in that situation? Should 'off-stating' be disallowed as well? Someone in state A might be 'put out of work.'

And why is it that you only care about American jobs? What about the jobs of foreigners? They need jobs too.

Create their own jobs. Not my problem. I've been through this with Stunt and have no intention of repeating it with you. My views stand. If you (or anyone else) doesn't like them, may your (and their) jobs be the first to go.

Your views stand like a house of cards. If I can't do my job at a competitive wage, then yes I think it should go. I probably wouldn't be too happy for awhile, but once I got a new job I would be able to take advantage of the lower prices resulting from the 'offshoring' as well as everyone else.

When have you seen lower prices on anything (other than cars and airlines as they struggle to pull in customers)? Deflation? Buwhahahahah! :laugh:

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer

When have you seen lower prices on anything (other than cars and airlines as they struggle to pull in customers)? Deflation? Buwhahahahah! :laugh:

Once again you know not what you speak of. We don't see lower prices overall because the government and the commercial banks increase the money supply year in and year out. We would see lower prices if it weren't for this continuous influx of new money.

Furthermore, if there was no 'offshoring' or international trade, the prices would become even higher.

 

[Engineer]

Has anyone mentioned (I haven't read the entire thread) the fact that Chinese and other countries have high tarriffs on US products not to metion a serious sense of nationalism in that they purchase only products (for the most part) made in their respective countries? (and why not, they're cheaper).

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Has anyone mentioned (I haven't read the entire thread) the fact that Chinese and other countries have high tarriffs on US products not to metion a serious sense of nationalism in that they purchase only products (for the most part) made in their respective countries? (and why not, they're cheaper).

So what? That doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of our tariffs here. All tariffs should be eliminated.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Engineer
Has anyone mentioned (I haven't read the entire thread) the fact that Chinese and other countries have high tarriffs on US products not to metion a serious sense of nationalism in that they purchase only products (for the most part) made in their respective countries? (and why not, they're cheaper).

So what? That doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of our tariffs here. All tariffs should be eliminated.

Smartbutt, that's what I'm talking about. You guys call it "FREE TRADE", but I call it one sided free trade. We buy their cheap sh!t with no penalties and they won't buy our crap because of tarriffs, nationalism and the fact that their currencies are not on the same playing field as ours (making their products artifically appear cheaper than they "should" be).