Labor Union Demands Killing GM?

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,145
26
91
Is it the unions that kill GM? GM wages plus benefits are 78.21 per hour, while Toyota is 35.00 per hour, including benefits .


Linky

Remember when Democrats lamented the growing budget deficit and spoke of the burden our children and grandchildren would face if we didn?t put our fiscal house in order? That was when Republicans ran the federal government and Democrats opposed tax cuts. Now that Democrats are about to be in charge, concern about the deficit has disappeared and spending plans proliferate, even though the national debt passed $10 trillion in September and we added another $500 billion last month.

The latest, but by no means the last supplicant at the public trough, is the auto industry, which wants a bailout to save jobs because its cars are not selling. There is a reason for that and it can be summed up in five words: The United Auto Workers Union (UAW).

Half of the $50 billion the auto industry wants is for health care for its current and retired employees. This is the result of increasing UAW demands, strikes and threats of strikes unless health care and pension benefits were regularly increased. While in the past UAW settled for some benefit decreases while bargaining with the Big Three U.S. automakers, according to the Wall Street Journal in September of 2006, ?on average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers.? Those increased costs, including the cost of health care, were passed along to consumers, adding $1,600 to the price of every vehicle GM produced. In February 2008, after General Motors offered buyouts to 74,000 employees, the Center for Automotive Research estimated the average wage, including benefits, for current GM workers had dropped to $78.21 an hour. New hires pulled down a paltry $26.65. GM, now facing a head-on collision with reality, has taken an important first step toward fiscal responsibility by announcing the elimination of lifetime health care benefits for about 100,000 of its white-collar retirees at the end of this year.

Contrast this with non-union Toyota, whose total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, are $35 per hour. Those lower labor costs mean Toyota enjoys a cost advantage over U.S. automakers of about $1,000 per vehicle. Is it any wonder that Toyota is outselling American automakers and from plants that have been built on U.S. soil? According to James Sherk of The Heritage Foundation, Japanese car companies provide their employees with good jobs at good wages: ?The typical hourly employee at a Toyota, Honda or Nissan plant in America makes almost $100,000 a year in wages and benefits, before overtime.?

While many in the Democratic Party have focused on ?corporate greed? and ?fairness,? according to Sherk, ?competition, not corporate greed, is the real problem facing labor unions. When unions negotiate raises for their members, companies pass those higher costs on to consumers.? Americans used to tolerate those increases, but no more. Competition has brought lower prices for Japanese cars and Americans are buying more of them, taking a pass on those manufactured in Detroit.

The argument made by those favoring a bailout of Detroit is that it will save more than 100,000 jobs in the auto and related industries. But what good does that do if people are not buying cars in sufficient numbers to allow the Big Three to make a profit? This becomes the kind of corporate welfare Democrats decry when it comes to Wall Street. But, then, Wall Street isn?t unionized and Democrats want and need the union vote.

What about Chrysler?s bailout 30 years ago? It was a loan. Didn?t Chrysler pay back the government? Wasn?t it worth the risk to save jobs? According to the Heritage Foundation, the $1.2 billion in loan guarantees made by the Carter administration still resulted in a partial bankruptcy for Chrysler. ?Most of the company?s creditors were forced to accept losses just as they would if Chrysler had gone through Chapter 11, and the company ended up firing almost half its workforce, including 20,000 white-collar workers and 42,600 hourly wage earners. The only people who benefited from the bailout were Chrysler shareholders.?

The Heritage Foundation also notes, ?If Washington really wants to help Detroit, they could end the regulatory nightmare that prevents profitable, fuel-efficient cars from reaching market.? Ford, they say, has begun selling a car that gets 65 mpg, but they?re not selling it in America. Why? Because it runs on diesel fuel ?and environmentalists in the U.S. have fought to keep diesel taxes high and refinery capacity low.?

More government intervention in private industry will bring us closer to socialism. Better to renegotiate the labor contracts, re-train workers for other jobs, or help them get hired at the Japanese auto plants in America than to subsidize a failed economic model for the sake of political gain.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
899
126
Besides the manufacturing costs the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage. US automakers have doomed themselves by making a less worthy product, exorbitant executive pay, as well as higher per worker costs including pay. As mentioned in another thread the best we could do for the US automakers is bring in Japanese management to completely restructure all of them.


 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,145
26
91
I think it just goes to show you that concentrated power , in labor or management, is not a good thing. Got to have a balance. Perhaps it is time to have some balance on Wall Street next.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,448
1,070
126
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

Yet can't market or make a profit off them.
 

chris9641

Member
Dec 8, 2006
156
0
0
I don't quite see the correlation between Toyota's non-unionized labor force and it's success. Of course it's not due to their better management, better products, and better r&d... no it's the unions fault!! You know why Toyota employees are getting those wages? Fear of unionization, without unions you'd see where those wages would end up. I see they note renegotiating labor contracts as a solution, well why weren't those contracts negotiated more effectively by the owners of these company's in previous negotiations. They caved in to these contracts, contracts they didn't have to agree on, and now they're paying the price.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: conehead433
Besides the manufacturing costs the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage. US automakers have doomed themselves by making a less worthy product, exorbitant executive pay, as well as higher per worker costs including pay. As mentioned in another thread the best we could do for the US automakers is bring in Japanese management to completely restructure all of them.

:thumbsup: I've owned a 70 Chevy Nova SS, Chevy Chevette, Chevy IROC Camaro (and yes I had a mullet), Chevy Cavalier, and Dodge Neon. The only good cars were the Nova from 1970 and Chevette from (?) 1980. The IROC was an electrical system nightmare. The Cavalier got horrible mileage and felt like a 10 year old car at 3 years. The Neon was constantly in the shop and dumped as soon as the warranty expired. After the Neon I gave up on domestic cars and made a bigger mistake - I purchased a VW. If you want to learn a hard lesson in reliability and repair charges try it. I'll NEVER go Euro again. Last Nov we needed to get my wife a car and chose a Mazda3. Good mileage, decent pickup, handles very well, safe, versatile, just an all-around great car. When the domestics can build a car like that for equal $$$ at purchase and resale I'll come back. Until then, no thanks. I've been considering dumping the POS VW. If I do I'm looking at a Honda Fit.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

How about a domestic version of a Mazda3 Grand Touring 5 door and Honda Fit Sport? Funny story... I just got back from a cruise to Grand Cayman and 2 stops in Mexico. They had several small Ford and Chevy models there that I've never seen on our roads. I pointed out a few and said to my friends, 'Why don't they sell those in the US?'.

Edit: (no the Vibe doesn't count)
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF
It blows my mind as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the work isn't easy, but it just doesn't make sense to me that line workers are earning as much or more than a college grad (engineer, for example). How can they justify this amount of pay?
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
899
126
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

Case in point. My Dad's Cadillac actually gets better highway mileage than my Mom's Maxima. Times my Mom's Maxima has been in the shop for anything other than general maintenace - Zero. The Cadillac - numerous. Just bad luck for my Dad, I don't think so.

If I was shopping for a car would I consider an American made - NO. Reliability, resale value, etc., the US manufacturers have been getting whipped for years.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,236
12,564
136
Are the union demands killing GM? NO, GM is killing GM with not so great build quality, less than sterling repair history, high warranty repair costs, and IMO, FUGLY cars. (although the higher costs can't be helping their bottom line.)
 

shabby

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,782
45
91
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

Yet can't market or make a profit off them.

Yeah, why do you think they can't profit????? Could it possible have anything to do with how much they spend per vehicle per employee do to their retarded union contracts?

As far as the mileage statement is concerned I'll just place this here. Keep in mind that when these numbers were taken GM did not the Volt and has increased it's mileage on many models.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

How about a domestic version of a Mazda3 Grand Touring 5 door and Honda Fit Sport? Funny story... I just got back from a cruise to Grand Cayman and 2 stops in Mexico. They had several small Ford and Chevy models there that I've never seen on our roads. I pointed out a few and said to my friends, 'Why don't they sell those in the US?'.

Edit: (no the Vibe doesn't count)

Domestic competition for the Mazda3 5 door I give to the the Saturn Astra 5-door and for the MazdaSpeed 3 I would give you the HHR SS. It will take your Mazda3 to school and yes I mean the MazdaSpeed 3. Sure it might not please the dashstroking snobs here but performance wise it's far superior to the Mazda while also getting better mileage.

Nurburgring lap times:
8:40 --- Audi TT 2.0 TFSU
8:40 --- Cadillac CTS
8:42 --- Audi TT 1.8 Quattro
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R
8:43.5 - Chevrolet HHR SS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R
8:50 --- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG
8:52 --- VW Golf GTI DSG

 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,254
10,841
136
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF
It blows my mind as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the work isn't easy, but it just doesn't make sense to me that line workers are earning as much or more than a college grad (engineer, for example). How can they justify this amount of pay?

I am sure that the $80/hour is a fully burdened rate. My fully burdened rate as a entry-level engineer at my company is $130/hour. Believe me I don't see anywhere near even half that amount in my paycheck.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF
That figure includes long term benefits which are HUGE share of it.

Life time medical coverage is killing the big 3. My uncle retired 30 some years ago and still gets all his benefits, good for him, but bad for the company.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Are the union demands killing GM? NO, GM is killing GM with not so great build quality, less than sterling repair history, high warranty repair costs, and IMO, FUGLY cars. (although the higher costs can't be helping their bottom line.)
Think of what they could do with a $1000 more to spend per vehicle though.

A $15,000 GM car is the same as a $14,000 Honda. That extra $1000+ per car kills them when it comes to long term designs, quality, equipment etc.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
If anything the government should offer to help them AFTER they enter chapter 11.

Ditch the union contracts, close the unprofitable plants, shed thousands of workers and totally streamline operations.

Go into chapter 11, develop a plan to do all that and then have the government help pay for it all. When it is all over the companies will emerge in far better shape and it will help the entire industry by being healthier.
 

Jiggz

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2001
4,329
0
76
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

At a price, yes! From the onset (initial purchase price is higher) all the way to lower resale value. So for the customer to get the same level of performance and reliability as foreign cars in American cars has to pay more. Why not just buy foreign car then? Its cheaper and more reliable!
 

Jiggz

Diamond Member
Mar 10, 2001
4,329
0
76
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

How about a domestic version of a Mazda3 Grand Touring 5 door and Honda Fit Sport? Funny story... I just got back from a cruise to Grand Cayman and 2 stops in Mexico. They had several small Ford and Chevy models there that I've never seen on our roads. I pointed out a few and said to my friends, 'Why don't they sell those in the US?'.

Edit: (no the Vibe doesn't count)

Domestic competition for the Mazda3 5 door I give to the the Saturn Astra 5-door and for the MazdaSpeed 3 I would give you the HHR SS. It will take your Mazda3 to school and yes I mean the MazdaSpeed 3. Sure it might not please the dashstroking snobs here but performance wise it's far superior to the Mazda while also getting better mileage.

Nurburgring lap times:
8:40 --- Audi TT 2.0 TFSU
8:40 --- Cadillac CTS
8:42 --- Audi TT 1.8 Quattro
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R
8:43.5 - Chevrolet HHR SS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R
8:50 --- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG
8:52 --- VW Golf GTI DSG

You definitely sounded like GM when they commented on Toyota first coming out with the Prius hybrid. GM said the only hybrid they're coming out with is the smell of rubber on the asphalt road, now that is hybrid! Today the Prius is selling like hot cakes with almost three months of back orders, while GM is begging for a bailout! And can you believe this, GM was even relying to make a come back with the 2009 Camaro and hope it'll give it the financial lift it needs? Do these people even go out and see what customers or the market wants? Do they actually believe they can just push any car designs to the customers? Well, the answer is an obvious NO!
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: Jiggz
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

How about a domestic version of a Mazda3 Grand Touring 5 door and Honda Fit Sport? Funny story... I just got back from a cruise to Grand Cayman and 2 stops in Mexico. They had several small Ford and Chevy models there that I've never seen on our roads. I pointed out a few and said to my friends, 'Why don't they sell those in the US?'.

Edit: (no the Vibe doesn't count)

Domestic competition for the Mazda3 5 door I give to the the Saturn Astra 5-door and for the MazdaSpeed 3 I would give you the HHR SS. It will take your Mazda3 to school and yes I mean the MazdaSpeed 3. Sure it might not please the dashstroking snobs here but performance wise it's far superior to the Mazda while also getting better mileage.

Nurburgring lap times:
8:40 --- Audi TT 2.0 TFSU
8:40 --- Cadillac CTS
8:42 --- Audi TT 1.8 Quattro
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R
8:43.5 - Chevrolet HHR SS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R
8:50 --- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG
8:52 --- VW Golf GTI DSG

You definitely sounded like GM when they commented on Toyota first coming out with the Prius hybrid. GM said the only hybrid they're coming out with is the smell of rubber on the asphalt road, now that is hybrid! Today the Prius is selling like hot cakes with almost three months of back orders, while GM is begging for a bailout! And can you believe this, GM was even relying to make a come back with the 2009 Camaro and hope it'll give it the financial lift it needs? Do these people even go out and see what customers or the market wants? Do they actually believe they can just push any car designs to the customers? Well, the answer is an obvious NO!

First of all, Robor asked a question and I answered truthfully, if you don't like it sorry. Secondly, the bailout has everything to do with them not being able to compete thanks to the previous management giving into the unions and signing outrageous contracts and NOTHING to do with sales. Please go do yourself a favor and take a look at GM's sales number and compare them to everyone else. You'll find that they outsell everyone in the US and yes I'm pretty sure they still outsell Toyota in the US only at least. And isn't it interesting that Toyota is now talking smack about GM's Volt the same way used to talk smack about Toyota's Prius?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Is it the unions that kill GM? GM wages plus benefits are 78.21 per hour, while Toyota is 35.00 per hour, including benefits .


Linky
-snip-
Half of the $50 billion the auto industry wants is for health care for its current and retired employees. This is the result of increasing UAW demands, strikes and threats of strikes unless health care and pension benefits were regularly increased. While in the past UAW settled for some benefit decreases while bargaining with the Big Three U.S. automakers, according to the Wall Street Journal in September of 2006, ?on average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers.? Those increased costs, including the cost of health care, were passed along to consumers, adding $1,600 to the price of every vehicle GM produced. In February 2008, after General Motors offered buyouts to 74,000 employees, the Center for Automotive Research estimated the average wage, including benefits, for current GM workers had dropped to $78.21 an hour. New hires pulled down a paltry $26.65. GM, now facing a head-on collision with reality, has taken an important first step toward fiscal responsibility by announcing the elimination of lifetime health care benefits for about 100,000 of its white-collar retirees at the end of this year.

Contrast this with non-union Toyota, whose total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, are $35 per hour. Those lower labor costs mean Toyota enjoys a cost advantage over U.S. automakers of about $1,000 per vehicle. Is it any wonder that Toyota is outselling American automakers and from plants that have been built on U.S. soil? According to James Sherk of The Heritage Foundation, Japanese car companies provide their employees with good jobs at good wages: ?The typical hourly employee at a Toyota, Honda or Nissan plant in America makes almost $100,000 a year in wages and benefits, before overtime.?
.

The numberds don't add up.

Toyota pays an average of $100 (before overtime) at $35 an hour? Nope.

There are about 2,000 hours of work time in a year when weekends, 2 weeks of vacation and holidays are factored in: 2,000 hrs x $35 = $70K != $100K

Then GM pays $78 per hour? That's over twice Toyota's $35 ($100K). So is GM paying the average employee $200K before overtime? No.

Nope, I suspect this article is the typical trash and the author is confusing two sets of financial numbers and jumbling the data.

One set is aveage annual salary and benefits. Toyota at $100K. I think GM is similar, at least that what I've always read.

Second set of data is hourly cost embeded in a vehicle. One company can pay half as much in hourly wage rate, but if they are inefficient and need 4 times the hours per vehicle they'll have higher wages per vehicle (even though their pay is much lower). I'm betting that Toyota pays the same to their employees but needs fewer hours of labor per vehicle.

I'm also betting that since Toyota is fairly new here they only have 401(k) retirement plans but no old fashioned penion plans (defined benefit), while GM etc on the other hand are carrying the cost of the old fashioned (and more expensive) plans for old workers. This gets factored into vehicle costs as labor (even though it's not really).

Bottom line: facts and numbers in the above article don't add up.

Fern
 
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