Labor Union Demands Killing GM?

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face if we let the big 3 automakers go down, wouldn't we? To be sure they have problems, especially management problems, but why doesn't everybody just take a cut in pay in exchange for government help?

I don't have any facts or figures to support my theory but it seems to me that paying for retired workers health care is killing them because their competition (domestic Toyota, etc. plants) haven't been open long enough to have that problem.

IMO, a UHC plan would level that playing field enough to make them competitive again.

Your theories are sound. You should run for office, as we need some clear thinking in positions of power. I think you've summed it up short and sweet.

Now here, well, this bunch prefers those sensational headlines, knee-jerk reactions and worrying about me, me, me.

Except they aren't sound. There is no "level" playing field with UHC, it's just playing ball in different directions. The corporations are going to pay no matter what so you'd be shifting the cost from direct - to indirect. These companies put these legacy costs on themselves because they didn't have a set of balls. They've known this day was coming for a long time but all they could do was delay it a bit - and that is ALL another bailout would do as well - delay the inevitable. So while some want to blame only management, and some would like to only blame Unions - it's been both helping to build this storm. Both have been greedy and short-sighted.
How do you fix it when the 2 main players in the problem were at fault? Fire em both. IE. Bankruptcy. That is the ONLY way we stand a chance at having them be healthy in the future.

 

[GeezerMan]

I have been thinking of greed and self interest lately, not just on wall street, but in society in general. Why does a man like Ted Stevens still get votes in Alaska? Is it just because he brings money into the state? Is it a case of so what if he takes bribes, he brings money in.
I think it was Ron Paul that said the survival of freedom requires a moral people.

 

[Red Dawn]

Well the Unions aren't going to do their workers any good if there's no jobs for them so they are going to have to make some serious concessions just like everybody else

 

[MaxisOne]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: MaxisOne
You missed the point ...

We are looking at all round reliability .. NOT lap times.

While My 2000 Ford Contour SE sport has one of the smoothest nicest v6 that can be had in a car that size i still hate the damn thing ... and its not because of performance or even engine reliability. Its the Fit and finish ... after 3 years the interior of the car looks like its been through Afghanistan. The Domestics may have caught up in terms of engine reliabilty.. ill give them that ... but overall fit and finish over time... They have a ways to go.

Actually, not really, GM and Ford have come a LONG way in terms of reliability and fit and finish. If you compare their cars and trucks, with out the biased that all of anandtech seem to have towards the domestics, against the foreign competition you'd see that. I know that not all their cars are up to par but enough are to say that the domestics are far different to what they were years ago. Maybe you missed the point. BTW, my 4 year old Silverado's interior still has the same fit and finish it had the day i bought it, nothing falling off, nothing rattling.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree then ... In my opinion for fit and Finish the domestics are not even close ... oh well .. Next vehicle for me will be a Mazda 3.. The domestics had their chance with me ... they blew it.

 

[BoomerD]

Rather than point the finger of blame at the unions, how about pointing it at the REAL cause of the problem...healthcare costs spiraling out of control.

15 years ago, I could get non-group insurance for my wife & myself with low co-pays and $1000 annual deductibles for under $50/month. Now...that same coverage is over $1000/month. Sure, we're now both in that "Over 50" category which increases premiums somewhat, but not by 2000%.
High healthcare insurance premiums are hurting ALL sectors of the US economy.

 

[Farang]

UAW not giving any more concessions, blames wider economic factors, wants government bailout: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...C3Sg6FqckrTA1gwdGs0NUE

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Farang
UAW not giving any more concessions, blames wider economic factors, wants government bailout: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...C3Sg6FqckrTA1gwdGs0NUE

LOL When I saw that headline this AM I wondered where the PR Department was. Out on strike I guess.

 

[Stunt]

The factory I work at has USWA (United Steelworkers of America) and for all cost savings and budgetary charges we use a figure of $48/hr for wages and fringe.
The take home for an average employee at my place of work is ~$23/hr and there isn't one person making less than $18/hr. With open capacity at other locations in the United States, it's quite the challenge producing at a higher efficiency to offset these much higher labour costs. The US plants have a labour cost of about $18/hr average with unskilled workers getting minimum wage; not $18/hr.

It's bitter-sweet for me as a manager because I know my wage is inflated because of the union's inflated pay. But at the same time I understand how it makes us less competitive. I guess I'm no better than some of these union members taking a larger wage (and wanting more) not caring for the market value of my labour.

According to the Ontario University Graduate Survey performed by Ontario Undergraduate Application Center and Statistics Canada...6months after graduation, the average engineer makes ~$40k and after 2years makes ~$48-50k. I was hired after grad for $58k and now...3 years later I make $81k and I attribute some of that to the high wages of the union members.

Just saying not to blame the union exclusively...the white collar workers like myself have a role to play in this as well...

 

[little elvis]

Originally posted by: Stunt
The factory I work at has USWA (United Steelworkers of America) and for all cost savings and budgetary charges we use a figure of $48/hr for wages and fringe.
The take home for an average employee at my place of work is ~$23/hr and there isn't one person making less than $18/hr. With open capacity at other locations in the United States, it's quite the challenge producing at a higher efficiency to offset these much higher labour costs. The US plants have a labour cost of about $18/hr average with unskilled workers getting minimum wage; not $18/hr.

It's bitter-sweet for me as a manager because I know my wage is inflated because of the union's inflated pay. But at the same time I understand how it makes us less competitive. I guess I'm no better than some of these union members taking a larger wage (and wanting more) not caring for the market value of my labour.

According to the Ontario University Graduate Survey performed by Ontario Undergraduate Application Center and Statistics Canada...6months after graduation, the average engineer makes ~$40k and after 2years makes ~$48-50k. I was hired after grad for $58k and now...3 years later I make $81k and I attribute some of that to the high wages of the union members.

Just saying not to blame the union exclusively...the white collar workers like myself have a role to play in this as well...

Those salaries seem low, my first job (in Southwestern Ontario) out of school (Chem Eng) was ~$45K and that was 10 years ago! The starting salary now (same company) for entry level engineers is in the range of ~55 to 60K.

I'm just surprised how low those salary numbers are.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Is it the unions that kill GM?

For every GM vehicle sold in the U.S., ~$13,000 of the purchase price goes to health-care benefits.

For every Japanese vehicle sold in the U.S., ~$150 of the purchase price goes to health-care benefits.

The math is right there. Don't have a link right now to back it up, so either take my word for it or don't, I couldn't care less either way.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: little elvis

Originally posted by: Stunt
The factory I work at has USWA (United Steelworkers of America) and for all cost savings and budgetary charges we use a figure of $48/hr for wages and fringe.
The take home for an average employee at my place of work is ~$23/hr and there isn't one person making less than $18/hr. With open capacity at other locations in the United States, it's quite the challenge producing at a higher efficiency to offset these much higher labour costs. The US plants have a labour cost of about $18/hr average with unskilled workers getting minimum wage; not $18/hr.

It's bitter-sweet for me as a manager because I know my wage is inflated because of the union's inflated pay. But at the same time I understand how it makes us less competitive. I guess I'm no better than some of these union members taking a larger wage (and wanting more) not caring for the market value of my labour.

According to the Ontario University Graduate Survey performed by Ontario Undergraduate Application Center and Statistics Canada...6months after graduation, the average engineer makes ~$40k and after 2years makes ~$48-50k. I was hired after grad for $58k and now...3 years later I make $81k and I attribute some of that to the high wages of the union members.

Just saying not to blame the union exclusively...the white collar workers like myself have a role to play in this as well...

Those salaries seem low, my first job (in Southwestern Ontario) out of school (Chem Eng) was ~$45K and that was 10 years ago! The starting salary now (same company) for entry level engineers is in the range of ~55 to 60K.

I'm just surprised how low those salary numbers are.

Those are the numbers they posted.
It's obviously going to depends on what university you are talking about. An engineer from a less reputable school is going to command a lower wage. Most of my friends from Queen's University started in the $47-55 range.

 

[Ferocious]

The union is a non-issue anymore. Even the big 3 admit that now.

Why does everyone keep quoting labor costs before the recent landmark contract?

An axe to grind I suppose.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
The union is a non-issue anymore. Even the big 3 admit that now.

Why does everyone keep quoting labor costs before the recent landmark contract?

An axe to grind I suppose.

legacy costs maybe? Sure the new one might be better than the previous raping but it doesn't absolve the legacy costs.

And no, no rational person says the union is a non-issue regarding Detroit.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Is it the unions that kill GM?

For every GM vehicle sold in the U.S., ~$13,000 of the purchase price goes to health-care benefits.

For every Japanese vehicle sold in the U.S., ~$150 of the purchase price goes to health-care benefits.

The math is right there. Don't have a link right now to back it up, so either take my word for it or don't, I couldn't care less either way.

The UAW President hisself refutes your statement in a conference call today.

From the AP Story:

According to UAW President Ron Gettelfinger: "The focus has to be on the economy as a whole as opposed to a UAW contract," Gettelfinger told reporters on a conference call, noting the labor costs now make up 8 percent to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.

8-10% doesn't come close to ~$13k. Who's got the real facts?

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Is it the unions that kill GM?

For every GM vehicle sold in the U.S., ~$13,000 of the purchase price goes to health-care benefits.

For every Japanese vehicle sold in the U.S., ~$150 of the purchase price goes to health-care benefits.

The math is right there. Don't have a link right now to back it up, so either take my word for it or don't, I couldn't care less either way.

The UAW President hisself refutes your statement in a conference call today.

From the AP Story:

According to UAW President Ron Gettelfinger: "The focus has to be on the economy as a whole as opposed to a UAW contract," Gettelfinger told reporters on a conference call, noting the labor costs now make up 8 percent to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.

8-10% doesn't come close to ~$13k. Who's got the real facts?

Who knows? He might be quoting direct labor - the labor needed to actually build the car. He's going to use a number that makes his position look viable. Hey, maybe his figure is correct - I don't know.

What's disturbing about his statement is that he seems to have not even left any room for bargaining. He appears to have drawn a line in the sand. It's a really ignorant position to take IMO. If his stance is that the workers he represents are not willing to make any sacrifices - and he's not talking out of his ass - so be it. My guess would be that autoworkers are smarter than that. That they are well aware of the real situation are willing to make sacrifices to keep their jobs. I live in SE Michigan, autoworkers are not the dummies that the country seems to think they are. They know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

He'll do more damage to his union by putting tens of thousands out of work than he will by giving in some. But I've seen them take a stand on shaky ground and have the ground give way under them before.

He'll be a marked man if his greed results in the failure of the Detroit auto companies. I don't disagree that the economy needs to be turned around, but it sure as shit isn't going to happen with the snap of a finger. The man needs a reality check.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Who knows?

Exactly, even though I have vested interest in getting the bailout. It sure would be nice to know for sure how much labor differentials between domestics and foreign manufacturers really are. I don't want my tax dollars squandered any more than the next guy.

I know, I've gotten all my inside information from someone who represents the union, but he is a very straight shooter never prone to exaggeration and as I understand it during negotiations the first phase is all about coming up with numbers the way they are. My buddy said the company would come in with figures that in no way represented reality and months would be consumed proving that they were wrong.

I could see a Car Czar and a team of accountants spending months determining what the meaning of "is" is.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Jiggz

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: herm0016

Originally posted by: conehead433
the simple truth is that the foreign automakers build a more dependable car that usually gets better gas mileage.

have you looked at the domestics in the last 5 years? they have models to compete with each and everything that any foreign maker sells.

How about a domestic version of a Mazda3 Grand Touring 5 door and Honda Fit Sport? Funny story... I just got back from a cruise to Grand Cayman and 2 stops in Mexico. They had several small Ford and Chevy models there that I've never seen on our roads. I pointed out a few and said to my friends, 'Why don't they sell those in the US?'.

Edit: (no the Vibe doesn't count)

Domestic competition for the Mazda3 5 door I give to the the Saturn Astra 5-door and for the MazdaSpeed 3 I would give you the HHR SS. It will take your Mazda3 to school and yes I mean the MazdaSpeed 3. Sure it might not please the dashstroking snobs here but performance wise it's far superior to the Mazda while also getting better mileage.

Nurburgring lap times:
8:40 --- Audi TT 2.0 TFSU
8:40 --- Cadillac CTS
8:42 --- Audi TT 1.8 Quattro
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R
8:43.5 - Chevrolet HHR SS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R
8:50 --- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG
8:52 --- VW Golf GTI DSG

You definitely sounded like GM when they commented on Toyota first coming out with the Prius hybrid. GM said the only hybrid they're coming out with is the smell of rubber on the asphalt road, now that is hybrid! Today the Prius is selling like hot cakes with almost three months of back orders, while GM is begging for a bailout! And can you believe this, GM was even relying to make a come back with the 2009 Camaro and hope it'll give it the financial lift it needs? Do these people even go out and see what customers or the market wants? Do they actually believe they can just push any car designs to the customers? Well, the answer is an obvious NO!

That was Chrysler (Dodge Charger "hybrid" burns gas and rubber), not GM. GM already has a hybrid full size SUV out, unlike Toyota, which does not have a system robust enough to handle that duty. Also, Camaro IS going to be a hit for GM, and before you start whining about consumers not buying it because of fuel economy, 80% are pre ordered with a V8.

those are pre orders. the real test is if it can sustain those numbers over the long haul, and unless it can get decent mileage, it won't, all it'll take is another spike of the gas prices and cars and trucks the suck gas will fall by the wayside. and that GM SUV hybrid isn't selling in the number they expected and need for it to be sustainable.

Camaro is not designed to be a mainstream car, it's a niche car with specific performance oriented target demographic. It's completely asinine to compare it to a Prius. Camaro buyer does not want a hybrid 4 banger, they want a V8, so GM is giving the customer what they want. So Camaro is wrong example if you are going to complain about GM not listening to the customer. Just like Prius buyers don't want a V8 under the hood, Camaro buyers don't want a hybrid 4 banger, even if it gets better mileage.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

The US arm of those corporations aren't on a "level playing field"? Seems to me things are level here in America. The UAW and the Unions have milked the big 3 dry and it's time for them to jettison the baggage of legacy business practices. It seems the only way they could do that is Chap 11. Once they re-emerge not only would the field be level, but the monkeys would no longer be weighing their back down...

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

The US arm of those corporations aren't on a "level playing field"? Seems to me things are level here in America. The UAW and the Unions have milked the big 3 dry and it's time for them to jettison the baggage of legacy business practices. It seems the only way they could do that is Chap 11. Once they re-emerge not only would the field be level, but the monkeys would no longer be weighing their back down...

Everything job is being devalued, GM is one of the few that have fought hard over the years to retain what was bargained to them.

What I dont understand is why you and some others have to be such a prick about it. Do you resent that they dont have your education level and make as much as you do?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

The US arm of those corporations aren't on a "level playing field"? Seems to me things are level here in America. The UAW and the Unions have milked the big 3 dry and it's time for them to jettison the baggage of legacy business practices. It seems the only way they could do that is Chap 11. Once they re-emerge not only would the field be level, but the monkeys would no longer be weighing their back down...

Everything job is being devalued, GM is one of the few that have fought hard over the years to retain what was bargained to them.

What I dont understand is why you and some others have to be such a prick about it. Do you resent that they dont have your education level and make as much as you do?

lol... retain what was bargained for them? True, except what you and others fail to accept is that the bargaining results were inflated. Manual labor jobs were over paid and lifetime benefits were unsustainable.

As to me and others... you are WAY off base. I'm being a realist - not a prick. I don't resent the fact that they were over paid, but I do resent that they want to be bailed out using our money. Their education or mine have nothing to do with this discussion - nor does my salary.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

The US arm of those corporations aren't on a "level playing field"? Seems to me things are level here in America. The UAW and the Unions have milked the big 3 dry and it's time for them to jettison the baggage of legacy business practices. It seems the only way they could do that is Chap 11. Once they re-emerge not only would the field be level, but the monkeys would no longer be weighing their back down...

In theory the playing field is level, but what if money is crossing the ocean from the parent corp to subsidize the US operations? Is the playing field still level? Of course they would never do that would they?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

The US arm of those corporations aren't on a "level playing field"? Seems to me things are level here in America. The UAW and the Unions have milked the big 3 dry and it's time for them to jettison the baggage of legacy business practices. It seems the only way they could do that is Chap 11. Once they re-emerge not only would the field be level, but the monkeys would no longer be weighing their back down...

In theory the playing field is level, but what if money is crossing the ocean from the parent corp to subsidize the US operations? Is the playing field still level? Of course they would never do that would they?

GM doesn't have operations in foreign countries?

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Polish3d

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
$75 a hour? Wow, that's a lot. 75x40(hours)x52(weeks)=156,000... O_O WTF

Wow that's lunacy :shocked:
I hope the uaw dies a slow and painful death.

The UAW also claims that it's fully the fault of the economy, not UAW or the auto manufacturers that these companies are struggling:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...o_bailout_gettelfinger


That's odd and fallacious when you consider that the economy isn't causing these same problems for other auto companies

Other companies don't have the retiree healthcare obligations that detroit has to deal with, because their retirees are mainly in countries with universal healthcare. So there is no level playing field to begin with.

The US arm of those corporations aren't on a "level playing field"? Seems to me things are level here in America. The UAW and the Unions have milked the big 3 dry and it's time for them to jettison the baggage of legacy business practices. It seems the only way they could do that is Chap 11. Once they re-emerge not only would the field be level, but the monkeys would no longer be weighing their back down...

In theory the playing field is level, but what if money is crossing the ocean from the parent corp to subsidize the US operations? Is the playing field still level? Of course they would never do that would they?

GM doesn't have operations in foreign countries?

You should re-think that statement within the context of the discussion here. It's an irrelevant argument.