laptop market rant - price vs product baffles me

[techgamer]

I come from mainly the PC market and it is pretty straightforward hardware wise. GPU's are priced vs performance and as new cards come out the old ones get discounted, same is cpu's etc.

I am exploring gaming laptops right now and getting completely frustrated
For $1,200 you can buy this beast with gtx 460 1.5g ddr5

Toshiba Qosmio X505-Q892 Laptop
* Intel® Core™ i5-460M processor
* Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)
* 4GB DDR3 1066MHz memory
* 500GB HDD (7200rpm)
* 1.5GB GDDR5 NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 460M

And similarly you can find a good MSI or Asus ATI 5870 laptop for about $1,200. Those are the two of the best GPU's so I've read. So why is it impossible to find an $800-$900 laptop with a next tier GPU like a GTX 285m, GTX 260M, GT 445? Why are these systems also $1,200? For the same money who doesn't buy the best product every time? There is no logic here at all.

 

[mchammer187]

size + portability, form factor, multitouch, expansion capability, extras like a mag safe

maybe not everyone wants to carry around a 10 lb laptop

 

[Zap]

Of course there's some logic to it. You just don't understand it, is all. For instance with PCs you can have a $30 case and a $300 case. You can have a $10 keyboard or a $100 keyboard. You can have a $200 monitor or $400 monitor.

With notebooks since everything is built in you don't see the breakdown. Some companies use better components and some don't. For instance the cheaper Acer notebooks are notorious for having crappy keyboards - part of the reason they are so cheap and not just because of the typical CPU/GPU/RAM/HDD. Also, sometimes brand and design have something to do with pricing. After all, Hyundai can sell the Genesis sedan for tens of thousands less than an "equivalent" Mercedes/BMW/Lexus when comparing specifications, but most people will still pay more for the other vehicles.

Regarding the GPUs, the 200 series are an older generation (based on G92). Those chips were considered high end at the time, and had relative high performance per core versus the current chips. The GTX 285M/260M are not the "next tier."

In any case, you need to approach this the way you should every other purchase. Make sure it fits your needs, but also make sure the whole package is something you will want to live with. For instance a gaming notebook can give the best hardware for the cheapest price, but if the CTRL key is not at the corner of the keyboard (often swapped with Fn key) then I would be hating it every time I gamed. What if a more expensive one had a longer life battery? What if a more expensive one weighed 2 pounds less and was thinner? Better quality screen? Higher resolution than the typical 1366x768? Also, notebook manufacturers can clock GPUs however they like, and the "same" GPU can perform wildly different due to cheapening out on the cooling or memory.

So, are you looking for a BMW or are you looking for a Hyundai? Both are nice and both get the job done.

 

[Eug]

Back in the day colleagues would ask me what laptops to buy and I give them recommendations based on their needs... and then they'd go out and buy the most powerful multimedia machine they could find based on their gaming son's recommendation, or because it came with a huge and beautiful screen.

Then, invariably, they'd buy a new machine within the year much better suited to their needs, usually much smaller and lighter, with not much GPU power. As has been said, there's more to laptops than plain performance specs.

 

[Winterpool]

As everyone is pointing out, it's not just about specs, or at least not just 'technology' specs in terms of processors, MHz, etc. There's a reason why Apple and ThinkPad dominate notebooks above $1000...

 

[Emulex]

it's about quality, design innovation, and SUPPORT.

Support = #1 to me. All products will fail.

I can't stand stinkvantage.

 

[ModestGamer]

everybody needs a panasonic fully rugged toughbook. I just wish upgrading was easier.

 

[maniac5999]

everybody needs a panasonic fully rugged toughbook. I just wish upgrading was easier.

Except for those of us that are careful with their electronics, and are comfortable replacing a disposable netbook after 2-3 years. ;-)

 

[cbn]

it's about quality, design innovation, and SUPPORT.

Support = #1 to me. All products will fail.

I was quite surprised by these comments.-->http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2118888&page=2

2 years before a cheaper laptop slows down? (even with a clean OS install). see post #34,#37 and #39

Any other opinions on these durability issues?

 

[Ninjahedge]

Laptops DO go down in price when you start looking at the full specs, as mentioned.

The thing is,. once you start labeling and marketing for a certain demographic, you will boost the price to what the market will bear.

The more original your design, or your niche, or even your name, the more you can charge for something that is, essentially, impossible to build yourself for less.

Apple was brought into the discussion, but they are not a good fit in this as they concentrate more on conformity, compatibility and name. Their primary target is not the gamer or the high-power addict, but someone who wants something, supposedly, more "friendly". Basically just something that has been tweaked to take off some bells and whistles to make it work better with the limited array of items that it can be paired with.

And it worked. And because of this, they can charge a much higher markup for their hardware. They were also smart in concentrating on the consumer and laptop electronic markets, as they are also things people are more likely to buy on a whim, or a "good feeling". Their commercials showing smiling people and saying nothing about what they can actually do is a testament to the fact that those that buy it are not concerned about the FPS's in WoW or Black Ops (not that it can play the latter...) but more the glowing "breath" of their sleeping laptop (which I find kinda creepy, actually).

So back to OT, laptops are hard to quantify. Too many different factors. And unlike desktops, they are almost impossible to find somethnig directly comparable or self-constructable.

BTW, your example? I would say the kick-butt machine, if it had the same build otherwise, would probably be $100-$200 more expensive than the next step down. I would not expect a laptop to drop significantly until all its parts were a generation behind.....

 

[StrangerGuy]

I just wish those crappy 720p 15.6" laptops w/o discrete GPUs can go away. They are simply too big for their performance and resolution.

 

[Zap]

2 years before a cheaper laptop slows down? (even with a clean OS install). see post #34,#37 and #39

He didn't elaborate.

Any cheap notebook will feel like a turd in a few years compared to newer systems, especially if the guy also has a newer desktop. My wife still has a 2 year old Gateway with a mobile Core 2 Duo of some kind at 2.0 or 2.1GHz. It completely feels like a turd compared to her Core i5 750@4GHz with an SSD. :awe:

Until proven otherwise, I think it is just perspective.

 

[0roo0roo]

you dont buy a laptop to game.
and if u do, just pay out the nose for it and live with it.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Laptops are for the basics. Like Oroo said.

People seem to think it has to do everything.

The only things I would want a laptop to do (besides dance... ) are the standard office suite and being able to 'port a vid signal to an HDTV/VGA (use as a travel HTPC).

Anything else is just candy.

 

[Ben90]

I completely agree with quality being a more important aspect of laptops than its hardware specs. My favorite laptop I own today is a ThinkPad T41 despite being quite slow by todays standards. However despite the lack of speed, it completely outclasses cheaper laptops.

Hell, even the 7 year old hinge is better than than a 2010 Dell Vostros despite being picked up by the screen at an angle nearly every time I use it. Don't even get me started on the keyboard.

 

[vbuggy]

I completely agree with quality being a more important aspect of laptops than its hardware specs. My favorite laptop I own today is a ThinkPad T41 despite being quite slow by todays standards. However despite the lack of speed, it completely outclasses cheaper laptops.

Hell, even the 7 year old hinge is better than than a 2010 Dell Vostros despite being picked up by the screen at an angle nearly every time I use it. Don't even get me started on the keyboard.

You do realise you're comparing a $400 notebook vs one that was $2K even in '04, right? The build quality for the money has not changed that much - it's just that you can buy something that weighs the same as a flagship '04-05 ultraportable and has slightly better performance for ~$400. It doesn't mean it's not built like crud.

As someone not used to anything but flagships, I'm increasingly finding the machines I buy too cheap, because the netbook-acclimatised peasant masses have distorted value - especially regarding build quality and actual premium features - in the marketplace. So those of us who have never really spent less than $2K on a machine typically now are seeing significantly fewer innovations in where we usually look, especially in terms of ultraportables.

Apple are very active in this area, but their 'innovations' are purely marketing-based, they often have little real merits once you strip away the hype and the compliant press (I'm also looking at Anandtech here) - yet they're now increasingly leading the vanguard in terms of development at the sorts of price tags that purchases of mine start at. This is kind of depressing. Where is the '10 X505? Where is the '10 G11? (Yes, I know Sony still sells an updated G. There's been no real change with it though) Where is the '10 Envy133? I could go on. Even the Sony Z - one of the most 'developed' high-end machines out there, is at core merely an evolution of the SZ.

For me, a decent machine starts at $2K and I don't blink until $10K. Unlike e.g. 5 years ago, I'm seeing very little real innovation at the high end, and it seems more and more like everyone is looking to see what Apple will do next, and then put some twist on that. That's not a viable form of innovation. WTF happened after netbooks?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Why?

Laptop makers make laptops the way auto makers make cars. If a car has 3 trim levels, you might have to get the nicest trim level that costs $3000 more just to get the in dash CD changer. Even though that might be $100 itself. The same thing happens with laptops. Want the best GPU, well, you have to pay for the best CPU also. It's all because of greed.

trust me. I have hte same frustrations. Try finding a cheap 1920x1200 17" laptop. It does not exist. Best price so far was $1050 at newegg.

 

[Emulex]

odd there was a refurb 8730w with 1920x1200 for $650 recently - td or pcwholesale. the pitch is hard to deal with - the envy 15 refurb $700'ish has 1920x1080 in 15" which is a nice compromise.

but after having my macbook air for a year. i lifted a brand new macbook pro and it was HEAVY. a brick. i can't imagine a 17". (i have an 8730w and its a tank in weight).

if they could do 15" 1920x1080 (or 1920x1200) at 3.5lb that would be awsome.