Larrabee demonstrated at SC09

IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/17/sc09_rattner_keynote/page2.html

From a mere barely able to demonstrate functional silicon 2 month ago at Fall IDF this year, Rattner at Intel showed off Larrabee's Floating Point capabilities at SuperComputing 09.

"On the SGEMM single precision, dense matrix multiply test, Rattner showed Larrabee running at a peak of 417 gigaflops with half of its 80 cores activated; and with all of the cores turned on, it was able to hit 805 gigaflops. As the keynote was winding down, Rattner told the techies to overclock it, and was able to push a single Larrabee chip up to just over 1 teraflops, which is the design goal for the initial Larrabee co-processors."

Original - http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...rt-Larrabee-mit-ueber-1-Teraflops-862305.html

Translated - http://translate.google.ca/translat...rabee-mit-ueber-1-Teraflops-862305.html&hl=en

At the opening of this year's supercomputing conference in Portland, led Justin Rattner ago from Intel Larrabee one card in the overclocked mode in the matrix multiplication in single precision (SGEMM) the one-teraflops mark slightly surpassed. GPU while waiting in part to compete with much higher theoretical values, but the real measurable SGEMM rate of GPUs is often much less, with Nvidia Tesla C1060 such as about 320 GFlops.

80 core - Workstation
64 core - High end consumer GPU
32 core - Mid range consumer GPU

Just speculating...
 
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Cookie Monster

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May 7, 2005
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Interesting.

But wasn't larrabee rumored to be 24 cores? 80 would be way too large even on intel's own 45nm tech. The die size based on the wafer that Gelsinger was holding estimated to be ~600mm^2. Unless they went for the extra mile and now using their 32nm tech.

Im surprised Larrabee can only pull off 1TFLOPs number against Nvidia Tesla C1060's 320GFLOPs. The latter is based on the GT200 (2 years old now?) and with Fermi which improves a lot of things regarding GPGPU performance, this doesn't sound too good.
 

palladium

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Dec 24, 2007
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Hmm.... very interesting, but it could be a little too late for Intel. Fermi is supposed to bring GPGPU performance to a whole new level (something like 5x the DP perf of GT200 IIRC). Not to mention that from a consumer graphics point of view, there's other stuff such as texture filtering and driver performance, both of which Intel has none or relatively little experience (particularly the latter).
 

jvroig

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Nov 4, 2009
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the 5xxx series of AMD as well as the latest NVIDIA offerings even before Fermi already TFLOP-class performance chips?
 

palladium

Senior member
Dec 24, 2007
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4xxx and 5xxx do have TFLOP-class shader performance, theoretically (nV's GT200b just barely passed the TFLOP mark, again theoretically). The problem is actually writing a program to use those computational power (this is especially a problem for ATI cards because of the superscalar architecture).
 

jvroig

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Nov 4, 2009
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4xxx and 5xxx do have TFLOP-class shader performance, theoretically (nV's GT200b just barely passed the TFLOP mark, again theoretically). The problem is actually writing a program to use those computational power (this is especially a problem for ATI cards because of the superscalar architecture).
Thanks, that what I was thinking, but wasn't nearly sure enough about it,

So the real advantage of Larrabee here is that it has TFLOP-class performance and easily programmable to take advantage of it?
 

IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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I highly doubt we'll see it in 32nm if they want to release by early 2010. The 32nm won't be that mature on such a large die chip AND a whole different architecture. Maybe the cores are actually smaller than we think.

As for performance, delays are usually catastrophic. I'm hoping its not THAT bad.
 

br0wn

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Jun 22, 2000
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Considering that Larrabee is supposed to be superior in non-graphics applications, the result of merely achieving 805 Gflops using 80 cores Larrabee is unimpressive (it might be impressive if Larrabee was released 1.5 years ago, but it looks like it won't arrive until at least mid 2010).
See this thread http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54842 where a developer is able to achieve 1 TFlops (1000 GFlops) using Radeon 4870 for the same application (SGEMM).
This is also comparing the workstation class Larrabee (80 cores) vs a year old consumer graphics card.
 
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Idontcare

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Oct 10, 1999
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Considering that Larrabee is supposed to be superior in non-graphics applications, the result of merely achieving 805 Gflops using 80 cores Larrabee is unimpressive (it might be impressive if Larrabee was released 1.5 years ago, but it looks like it won't arrive until at least mid 2010).
See this thread http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54842 where a developer is able to achieve 1 TFlops (1000 GFlops) using Radeon 4870 for the same application (SGEMM).
This is also comparing the workstation class Larrabee (80 cores) vs a year old consumer graphics card.

Considering it took AMD/ATI how many years to iteratively refine their architecture to reach that performance with all their experience and know-how and Intel goes from nearly zero to being only a year behind in the same metric I'd say that is pretty darn good "trajectory"...how many more years do you expect Intel will need to iterate their architecture before reaching the cross-over point?

Granted Intel is probably spending more on larrabee than the combined R&D spent by ATI/AMD on graphics to date, but so long as they (Intel) don't mind continuing to pour shareholder equity into the project and we walk it out 2-3 yrs things in the GPU landscape have the potential to become quite interesting and exciting.

AMD takes GPUs to GloFo and quite possibly puts them on leading-edge SOI HKMG process tech, Nvidia sticks with TSMC and continues with their dream of someday cranking out GPU's the size of single-wafers, and Intel pushes out chips on their leading edge node using EUV and carbon nanotubes and whatever else a 6X process development budget nets them over the competition.

When has being a GPU enthusiast ever been filled with the potential for so much excitement and change?
 

br0wn

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Jun 22, 2000
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Considering it took AMD/ATI how many years to iteratively refine their architecture to reach that performance with all their experience and know-how and Intel goes from nearly zero to being only a year behind in the same metric I'd say that is pretty darn good "trajectory"...how many more years do you expect Intel will need to iterate their architecture before reaching the cross-over point?

Granted Intel is probably spending more on larrabee than the combined R&D spent by ATI/AMD on graphics to date, but so long as they (Intel) don't mind continuing to pour shareholder equity into the project and we walk it out 2-3 yrs things in the GPU landscape have the potential to become quite interesting and exciting.

AMD takes GPUs to GloFo and quite possibly puts them on leading-edge SOI HKMG process tech, Nvidia sticks with TSMC and continues with their dream of someday cranking out GPU's the size of single-wafers, and Intel pushes out chips on their leading edge node using EUV and carbon nanotubes and whatever else a 6X process development budget nets them over the competition.

When has being a GPU enthusiast ever been filled with the potential for so much excitement and change?

I agree with your post (but I'd say they are at least two years behind for non graphics and more for graphics). It is just with all the hypes of Larrabee in the last two years, it is a bit disappointing to see what they finally come up with. Also, I'd not say Intel is new in the graphics space, to date they hold the largest graphics marketshare in the world (granted this is with their integrated chip).
It is exciting to have more competition in the space though which will spurs innovation faster (especially since Intel is an 80 pounds gorilla here).
 
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Martimus

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Apr 24, 2007
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Considering it took AMD/ATI how many years to iteratively refine their architecture to reach that performance with all their experience and know-how and Intel goes from nearly zero to being only a year behind in the same metric I'd say that is pretty darn good "trajectory"...how many more years do you expect Intel will need to iterate their architecture before reaching the cross-over point?

I wouldn't call it a year behind, as the chip isn't comercially available yet. Even so, I am not sure you can project a cross over point based on a company advancing to a point other companies already advanced to. That knowledge was already found, and so is available in some matter to those that follow. That kind of knowledge won't be available at such a cross over point, since no-one has yet developed it. Advancement from this stage is as always a case of diminishing returns.
 

Idontcare

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Oct 10, 1999
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Phenom was disappointing when it was finally released as well after all the hype that went into "monolithic quad-core FTW" mantra...but they recovered (mostly) after a couple years.

I'm less worried about larrabee living up to the hype and more inclined to waste my time contemplating the momentum/trajectory of any given player as we walk it out a few generations into the future.

The single-precision results combined with core-count is data, the gap to the competition is data, granted the confidence-limits result in wide whiskers on the perceptual plot of the trajectory and momentum of each player but the "big picture" is clearer today (for me anyways) than it was yesterday.

I don't expect anyone/everyone to share this view, and grilling Intel over the failure of reality meeting up to the hype is completely valid and godspeed to anyone who wants to do that, it just doesn't do much for me is all. I'm excited about where this goes from here.
 

IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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, Nvidia sticks with TSMC and continues with their dream of someday cranking out GPU's the size of single-wafers,

I'm gonna have to lol on this part. You know your stuff IDC, if not at least how to communicate about it.

When you are at bottom the only way you can go is up.
 

yh125d

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Dec 23, 2006
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Also, I'd not say Intel is new in the graphics space, to date they hold the largest graphics marketshare in the world (granted this is with their integrated chip).

Intel's experience making sub-par integrated graphics that only have any significant marketshare because it's what all the OEMs put in their systems isn't worth that much. I'd say 80% of Intel's "experience" with IGPs is completely worthless in regards to LRB, if not more. Doesn't Intel outsource most of it's IGP designs anyway?
 

jvroig

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Nov 4, 2009
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Intel's experience making sub-par integrated graphics that only have any significant marketshare because it's what all the OEMs put in their systems isn't worth that much. I'd say 80% of Intel's "experience" with IGPs is completely worthless in

Absolutely agree. And just like that, Larrabee doesn't even have to be awesome as nVidia / ATi offerings. It just has to be "good enough" (among others, hardware T&L please, Intel) and be as ubiquitous as Intel's IGP for it to be a win for Intel. It doesn't actually have to overpower or even jut match Fermi or Cypress.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
153
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Phenom was disappointing when it was finally released as well after all the hype that went into "monolithic quad-core FTW" mantra...but they recovered (mostly) after a couple years.

I'm less worried about larrabee living up to the hype and more inclined to waste my time contemplating the momentum/trajectory of any given player as we walk it out a few generations into the future.

The single-precision results combined with core-count is data, the gap to the competition is data, granted the confidence-limits result in wide whiskers on the perceptual plot of the trajectory and momentum of each player but the "big picture" is clearer today (for me anyways) than it was yesterday.

I don't expect anyone/everyone to share this view, and grilling Intel over the failure of reality meeting up to the hype is completely valid and godspeed to anyone who wants to do that, it just doesn't do much for me is all. I'm excited about where this goes from here.

I too believe that Intel will have the most luck with subsequent iterations of Larrabee, than the first release. Really what I was trying to get at was that saying they aren't that far behind and as such are advancing on a rate where they will pass the competition isn't a fair assessment. I am not sure that is what you were getting at, but it did appear that you were projecting this at some future time period. They may get there at some point, but the one data point that we have is by no means sufficient to predict when or even if this will happen. (Plus this data point is somewhat questionable.)

My main point against this line of thinking is that Intel (or any other company) can always look at ATI/nVidia/3DFX Etc. tackled the issues they are facing while creating their GPU designs to help them them find ways around their own issues as they come up. Once they catch up to the point the competition has advanced, they will no longer have this ready knowledge base and will need to find their own solutions to issues from scratch. This isn't to say they cannot do this, as they most certainly can, but the process will be exponentially slower, and there is no way to predict that they will work through new challenges any quicker/slower than their competitors.

The size of their R&D budget might help, but do you even know that it is actually bigger than the competitions budget? You can assume that because they have greater resources, but that does not mean that they would choose to spend it on something with as small of a return as a discrete GPU. Even if they do spend much more on R&D, it does not equate to faster breakthroughs. I work on programs that have more resources than Intel will ever have available, yet I see huge inefficiencies in the design phases to the point that the biggest project I was working on was just cancelled. Throwing money at the problems generally made them worse, and there are good reasons for that as well. That being said, if research is underfunded it is a major detriment, so if the competition cannot properly fund their research, you may have a point.
 
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