Larrabee's future in doubt as Nvidia looks to pull their cross-license IP

[chizow]

DigiTimes report via Guru3D

Meanwhile, Henry pointed out that Intel continues to benefit from its side of the cross-licensing agreement. Nvidia believes that Intel is using Nvidia IP in currently shipping IGP products and the company also believes that Intel would not be able to develop its Larrabee graphics chips without making use of Nvidia's IP portfolio, said Henry. Henry went on to say that, Nvidia may ask the courts to terminate Intel's rights to these IPs in the event that it is found that Intel is in breech of contract.

For those that don't know, Intel has recently filed law suits claiming breach of contract for various cross-licensing agreements with both AMD and Nvidia. Nvidia recently fired back with their own counter-suit, but it looks like their threat to pull their IP actually has teeth if Intel was planning to use any of their IP in Larrabee and their upcoming integrated IGPs.

 

[exar333]

They could be playing to use this as a bargaining chip in the dispute revolving around if they are allowed to make Intel chipsets. The results will definitely be interesting to see.

 

[habbakuk87]

http://arstechnica.com/hardwar...-license-agreement.ars
Seems that intel wants to keep the gfx business of the apple with itself,too. AFAIK nVidia has allowed SLI on Intel motherboards and Intel should have reciprocated in a better manner.Anyway it seems to me it seems to me that they wish to protect their gfx chip on the processor from competing solutions and if Intel IGP solutions are any indication, it won't be good for the consumer.
Intel should have known about this kind of backlash,they might already have a plan for it.

 

[josh6079]

Can't we all get along?

 

[SlowSpyder]

Stop crushing Nemesis' world!

Seems odd that Larabree would use anything Nvidia owns seeing as it supposed to be so 'different' in the way it does things... but I'm sure the cross licensing agreements are rather lawyerish and not for average people like myself to decipher, so who knows.

 

[nosfe]

How about this?
Intel pulls it's cross-license IP and suddenly GTX 380's future is in danger (kidding)

These are just idle threats, both parties have too much to lose if they break up their cross licensing deals

 

[BenSkywalker]

Intel only holds the IP cards for chipsets, which nV certainly doesn't want to lose but could without a major impact to them.

nV owns a ton of IP relating to graphics, I can't think of any that Intel has. nV may even have some IP controlled concerning real time ray tracing, they did pick up all of 3dfx's IP when they went under, and 3dfx had an extensive collection of patents(some of which didn't relate to any product they had ever released). Intel is plenty big enough to survive if they are ousted out of the graphics segment, but given the level of importance they have put on it lately I don't think that is a position they want to be put in.

 

[Wreckage]

Maybe NVIDIA will get a x86 license after all.

 

[Denithor]

And the pissing contest continues...

:beer:

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: nosfe
How about this?
Intel pulls it's cross-license IP and suddenly GTX 380's future is in danger (kidding)

These are just idle threats, both parties have too much to lose if they break up their cross licensing deals

I'm not sure how you think these are idle threats, Intel's claims about breach of contract already have very real market ramifications. As you might have noticed Nvidia still does not have an Nehalem chipset on the market and Intel is also challenging their i5/Lynnfield licensing rights as well. Speculation about the scope of their chipset license goes back almost a year with initial discussions about SLI support on X58.

This press release clearly shows Nvidia's counter-suit actually has teeth, again, assuming Larrabee and their upcoming integrated 32nm CPU-GPU uses any of Nvidia's IP. Any delay due to this licensing feud would have a huge negative impact on Intel's roadmaps and core business, particularly the integrated CPU-GPU part which was to become their mainstream CPU IGP solution. Larrabee's delay would be much less significant, but it would certainly limit Intel as a CPU-only player in the market for that much longer.

As it is right now, I think Nvidia has the upper hand in negotiations, as Intel's only claim to breach is Nvidia publicly stating they believe they have a valid license to Nehalem and IMC chipsets. The impact to Nvidia of not having this license is also known already as they don't have a Nehalem chipset on the market and their chipset business is only something like 15-20% of their revenue. Personally I think all this litigation extends beyond these desktop chipsets and is actually rooted in Ion.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Maybe NVIDIA will get a x86 license after all.

I doubt they'll get an x86 license as an outcome of this suit, even if they settle as it was never included in the original cross-license agreement. I also think Intel would forfeit their GPU plans before surrendering an x86 license to Nvidia, which is probably the worst outcome imaginable from Intel's standpoint.

 

[Munky]

Even if Larrabee fails as a video card, it could still be a viable solution in the GPGPU market, and NV would like a fat piece of that pie as well.

 

[nosfe]

This press release clearly shows Nvidia's counter-suit actually has teeth

It's a press release, they're made to look like they have teeth. The thing is, we don't know the extent on intel's and nvidia's IP licensing deal, i doubt that they're only about non-nehalem chipsets and x86 based gpu's.

only something like 15-20% of their revenue.

only? i doubt any business would say a 10% revenue drop is a small thing

Personally I think all this litigation extends beyond these desktop chipsets and is actually rooted in Ion.

i doubt it, Ion won't last long as once the igp moves to the cpu most manufacturers will ignore it.

i said that these are idle threats because we all pretty much know the end result of all this, they'll make up, renew/renegotiate their deals and everything will go back to normal

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: nosfe
It's a press release, they're made to look like they have teeth. The thing is, we don't know the extent on intel's and nvidia's IP licensing deal, i doubt that they're only about non-nehalem chipsets and x86 based gpu's.

No it was an interview with an Nvidia product manager that clearly outlined what was potentially at stake, Intel's future GPU plans, when that distinction was not clearly made in the initial press releases about Nvidia's counter-suit:

Nvidia Counter-Suit at DailyTech

You'll see neither the author nor the comments make the link to Larrabee or their 32nm plans or potentially relying on Nvidia IP. They say Nvidia is looking to pull their graphics cross-license IP but don't state what technologies would be affected. The few other blurbs I read about the suit didn't directly mention Larrabee or integrated 32nm chips either.

only? i doubt any business would say a 10% revenue drop is a small thing

Ya something like that, and last I checked in their quarterly that business unit actually lost money, so again, "only" would be accurate.

i doubt it, Ion won't last long as once the igp moves to the cpu most manufacturers will ignore it.

i said that these are idle threats because we all pretty much know the end result of all this, they'll make up, renew/renegotiate their deals and everything will go back to normal

Well again, the future of those IGPs is now in question as a result of this law-suit. Ion clearly has Intel upset and some of their comments would indicate their breach of contract lawsuit looks to extend beyond Nehalem, as they've clearly indicated they are looking to nullify their existing chipset licenses as well, which would directly impact Ion.

As for being idle threats, a settlement is certainly more probable now, but a possible outcome from all this high-stakes fingerpointing is that the loser in a cases of breach of contract in bad faith not only loses their rights to any licenses, but the winner gets to keep theirs in return.

 

[bryanW1995]

intel is throwing their weight around right now because they see that nvidia is struggling. In times of economic crisis, the strong typically get stronger and the weak get weaker. Nvidia picked a bad time time to get their ass kicked by ati. AMD picked a bad time to get their ass kicked by intel, though that ass-kicking has been going on for several years now.

Intel can afford to drag this out for years if necessary. Certainly it is a risk, but nobody is going to sneak up on them in the x86 market. Nvidia, otoh, isn't doing very well with video cards right now so their chipset business is becoming steadily more important. If intel whacks them from one side and amd whacks them from the other, they could end up going the way of ati. The question at that point becomes, who is the likely buyer? Intel.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
Nvidia, otoh, isn't doing very well with video cards right now

They still have a larger marketshare than ATI, have made more money than ATI over the last 2 years and have money in the bank (unlike AMD).

The sad truth is AMD may soon be bankrupt.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
intel is throwing their weight around right now because they see that nvidia is struggling. In times of economic crisis, the strong typically get stronger and the weak get weaker. Nvidia picked a bad time time to get their ass kicked by ati. AMD picked a bad time to get their ass kicked by intel, though that ass-kicking has been going on for several years now.

Intel can afford to drag this out for years if necessary. Certainly it is a risk, but nobody is going to sneak up on them in the x86 market. Nvidia, otoh, isn't doing very well with video cards right now so their chipset business is becoming steadily more important. If intel whacks them from one side and amd whacks them from the other, they could end up going the way of ati. The question at that point becomes, who is the likely buyer? Intel.

Nvidia is doing fine for now all things considered. They are doing ok financially and didnt make the list of companies that have a high chance of not making it through 2009, unlike AMD.

 

[PingSpike]

Yeah, I don't think nvidia is doing that badly in graphics. ATI's current products are great, but this isn't quite the same as the FX series years where nvidia didn't even have anything competitive. They're competitive, its just the market in general is tough right now.

I think intel is swinging their dick around now because they're on top. Nvidia probably does have a fat graphical patent portfolio and I wouldn't surprised if they couldn't screw up intel's larabee attempts.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
Stop crushing Nemesis' world!

Seems odd that Larabree would use anything Nvidia owns seeing as it supposed to be so 'different' in the way it does things... but I'm sure the cross licensing agreements are rather lawyerish and not for average people like myself to decipher, so who knows.

My worlds crushed alright but not by saber rattling. NV has to ask itself something here. Why would intel use anything they have. SO funny. NV should maybe find out why ATI don't make intel chipsets anymore or the real trueth behind ringbus . YA dream on .

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
Stop crushing Nemesis' world!

Seems odd that Larabree would use anything Nvidia owns seeing as it supposed to be so 'different' in the way it does things... but I'm sure the cross licensing agreements are rather lawyerish and not for average people like myself to decipher, so who knows.

My worlds crushed alright but not by saber rattling. NV has to ask itself something here. Why would intel use anything they have. SO funny. NV should maybe find out why ATI don't make intel chipsets anymore or the real trueth behind ringbus . YA dream on .

Why would you think that Intel doesn't license any IP from other companies? Nvidia, AMD, probably countless others.

 

[TemjinGold]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
intel is throwing their weight around right now because they see that nvidia is struggling. In times of economic crisis, the strong typically get stronger and the weak get weaker. Nvidia picked a bad time time to get their ass kicked by ati. AMD picked a bad time to get their ass kicked by intel, though that ass-kicking has been going on for several years now.

Intel can afford to drag this out for years if necessary. Certainly it is a risk, but nobody is going to sneak up on them in the x86 market. Nvidia, otoh, isn't doing very well with video cards right now so their chipset business is becoming steadily more important. If intel whacks them from one side and amd whacks them from the other, they could end up going the way of ati. The question at that point becomes, who is the likely buyer? Intel.

Is there umm... a good time to get your ass kicked?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: TemjinGold

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
intel is throwing their weight around right now because they see that nvidia is struggling. In times of economic crisis, the strong typically get stronger and the weak get weaker. Nvidia picked a bad time time to get their ass kicked by ati. AMD picked a bad time to get their ass kicked by intel, though that ass-kicking has been going on for several years now.

Intel can afford to drag this out for years if necessary. Certainly it is a risk, but nobody is going to sneak up on them in the x86 market. Nvidia, otoh, isn't doing very well with video cards right now so their chipset business is becoming steadily more important. If intel whacks them from one side and amd whacks them from the other, they could end up going the way of ati. The question at that point becomes, who is the likely buyer? Intel.

Is there umm... a good time to get your ass kicked?

Hehe no there isn't, good thing for Nvidia they've been competing against a one-legged man for the last few years in this ass kicking contest.

 

[Wreckage]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/v...tering_the_Market.html

Nvidia Corp. claims that it could terminate its cross-licensing agreement with Intel Corp., which would prevent the latter from launching its first discrete graphics processor in ten years. Besides, claims Nvidia, Intel utilizes Nvidia?s intellectual property in every integrated graphics core it ships.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
Stop crushing Nemesis' world!

Seems odd that Larabree would use anything Nvidia owns seeing as it supposed to be so 'different' in the way it does things... but I'm sure the cross licensing agreements are rather lawyerish and not for average people like myself to decipher, so who knows.

My worlds crushed alright but not by saber rattling. NV has to ask itself something here. Why would intel use anything they have. SO funny. NV should maybe find out why ATI don't make intel chipsets anymore or the real trueth behind ringbus . YA dream on .

Why would you think that Intel doesn't license any IP from other companies? Nvidia, AMD, probably countless others.

Were did I say such a thing. I know IP are cross licensed Other tham IBM Intel is probably no.2 in IP.

Look at larrabee what would Intel need from NV to do a software render. Because that what Larrabee is . It did use 1 aspect of render that they did in Hardware and that s Intels very own IP. As far as IPs You will find alot of Rambus on larrabee but intel paid IP. ON the other hand its NV thats being sued by Rambus on IP . NV should just get to work forget about X86 because they have Zero rights to it . Same with I7 . Intel will never agree to deal with nv now. Ever. Intel is going to kill NV . Not a thing any one can do to stop it except intel. Because Intel is correct legeally. NV is copy catting AMD all can see that.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Intel only holds the IP cards for chipsets, which nV certainly doesn't want to lose but could without a major impact to them.

nV owns a ton of IP relating to graphics, I can't think of any that Intel has. nV may even have some IP controlled concerning real time ray tracing, they did pick up all of 3dfx's IP when they went under, and 3dfx had an extensive collection of patents(some of which didn't relate to any product they had ever released). Intel is plenty big enough to survive if they are ousted out of the graphics segment, but given the level of importance they have put on it lately I don't think that is a position they want to be put in.

Why would you say such a thing. Intels graphics IP is not BAD, Plus they have bought other graphics companies now they own those IPs .Please; Intel only has chipsetIP . Please check out intels IP . do yourself a favor.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Intels graphics IP is not BAD

You are right, it nigh doesn't exist. They are a nothing in terms of the advancement of GPUs, nothing at all. They have always been a bottom feeder of profoundly low end parts at best(I suppose you could argue the i740 when it was first released, but even that was obliterated by a single Voodoo2, let alone SLI setups). They may well be doing everything in their power to change that, but the foundation of the IP utilized today was formed many years ago, and Intel wasn't a factor.

Plus they have bought other graphics companies now they own those IPs

Like who? AMD and nVidia own almost all of the IP to be had in the graphics market between the two of them- and they own the really nasty base level types that are nigh impossible to work around. They cross license to each other, if Intel tries to strong arm nV out of the chipset market nV may well end all of their GPU dreams in a court room. Intel isn't the only mean old SOB in the computer world with lawsuits

Please; Intel only has chipsetIP

Given that this thread is about said lawsuit, and given my comments were about the topic at hand, the only relevant IP Intel holds is for their own chipsets. nV holds patents that cover all graphics parts(AMD does too, which is why AMD and nV have cross licensing agreements).

Edit- Hmmm, you know, with AMD being sued by Intel over their x86 license they could also sue to remove their graphics IP from availability, that would put a full stop to Larrabee in a hurry- no way are they going to avoid all of the IP from nV and AMD.