Last Vegas strip shooting: More than 20 dead, 100 injured after gunman opens fire near Mandalay Bay

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
How come literally every discussion on gun violence becomes a discussion on suicide with you?

Because suicide comprises a huge portion of gun violence, haha. Just common sense.

If most suicides by guns are committed by age 45+ white males in this country, and gun ownership is actually declining. Doesn't it stand to reason that these people have owned guns for a very long period of time? That means that probably every person who is 25-44 right now who is going to commit suicide by the time they are 45+, probably already owns the gun they are going to kill themselves with?

I sincerely doubt every person aged 25-44 who will eventually commit suicide already owns the weapon they will use or anything even remotely close to it.

As an example I had a friend who killed himself at age 27 with a gun he got literally the day he shot himself in the chest with it.

If suicide by gun is compulsive, how come there is no statistical evidence that waiting periods help?

There is some evidence that is the case, actually, but generally the answer is that there isn’t a lot of research that has not focused on waiting periods in particular and they are usually part of larger gun control bills where it’s hard to parse out individual effects.

Is it because, like I said before, the compulsion comes back, they buy the gun after the wait period, then have the gun ready when they feel suicidal later? Or possibly because they already own the gun.

There is plenty of research into suicide that overwhelmingly shows people who attempt suicide usually do not do so again if they survive.

Either way, I don't see a gun control measure that seeks to actually impact suicide rates, which is what you always end up steering towards.

Right but that’s because you keep making up things about suicide to justify your position that aren’t true.

To me suicide is better discussed as a mental health and healthcare issue.

Groups dedicated to preventing suicide disagree with you.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,330
1,203
126
Looks like some GOP congress members are edging into supporting a bump stock ban. Odds they actually move some legislation this time seem to be increasing.

I'm fine with that. It's silly to argue that those devices don't turn a semi auto into an automatic weapon.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
japan has extremely strict gun control, yet a very high suicide rate.

if someone wants to end thier life, lack of a gun will not stop them

You can't bring Japan into the equation on that issue. Suicide there is cultural, it's viewed as the honorable way out, something to be admired in many circumstances. An apples-to-apples comparison would be to break it down by similar country culture, economics, industrialization, etc. Or even state by state. When you do that there is a strong and undeniable link between gun ownership and suicide rate and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

And it really has nothing to do with this thread. Of course more guns = more suicides if all else is equal. More cars = more traffic accidents if all else is equal and more workers = more on the job accidents. The issue is not how to stop broken people from killing themselves, it's how to prevent them from killing 60 other people instead.
 
Reactions: bshole and Engineer

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
Because suicide comprises a huge portion of gun violence, haha. Just common sense.
Is it really violence though? You wouldn't say countries that have a higher intentional death rate, ( homicide + suicide) combined are "more violent" than the US, yet at the same time include suicide in "violence" studies? For example South Korea, Japan, France, Poland, Belgium have very similar intentional death rates, but everybody agrees that it is America with the "violence" problem.


I sincerely doubt every person aged 25-44 who will eventually commit suicide already owns the weapon they will use or anything even remotely close to it.

As an example I had a friend who killed himself at age 27 with a gun he got literally the day he shot himself in the chest with it.
No perhaps not, but I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority do not kill yourself as your friend does. Especially the prime risk group, those aged 45+.


There is some evidence that is the case, actually, but generally the answer is that there isn’t a lot of research that has not focused on waiting periods in particular and they are usually part of larger gun control bills where it’s hard to parse out individual effects.
Well why not research it when suicide comprises a huge portion of gun violence, haha.


There is plenty of research into suicide that overwhelmingly shows people who attempt suicide usually do not do so again if they survive.
Is a waiting period on a gun an "attempt". I doubt anybody classifies that as an attempt. So that statistic seems meaningless.


Right but that’s because you keep making up things about suicide to justify your position that aren’t true.
I make stuff up because as we both agree, suicide by gun is a poorly researched subject and studies do not focus on how gun control bills impact suicides because "it is hard to parse out individual effects" despite suicide comprising a huge portion of gun "violence". See how silly that is? Research on gun control bills and their effect on the largest portion of gun deaths should be a PRIMARY FOCUS, if the goal is to reduce suicide by gun? Right?


Groups dedicated to preventing suicide disagree with you.

Wouldn't perhaps every other country's suicide prevention groups probably agree with me?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,658
12,781
146
He probably didn't realize that shooting jet fuel tanks won't cause them to blow up like in the movies or video games. Lots of people were fleeing to the air field and if they actually did blow up, a lot more people would have been killed.

This thread is also mind boggling. Asking all guns to be banned because of a tragedy like this is like asking all Muslim immigrants to be banned because of a terrorist attacks. Both are stupid and emotional reactions to something terrible that has happened. You have one pyscho who went on a shooting spree, it doesn't make the incredibly large number of responsible gun owners all potential psychos. Same as a Muslim that causes a terrorist attack doesn't suddenly make all Muslims terrorists even if Trump wants it to. So instead of yelling on top of your lungs that gunz are bad, ban all gunz, like some loonies are doing in this thread, try having a more constructive discussion. There has already been many good points on removing loop holes, creating more checks and balances that doesn't have gun owners pay out of the wazoo, etc. Stop with the useless posts that have no merit.
Agreed on all points, and I know those tanks won't explode on shooting (unless empty I guess, assuming he could penetrate the walls), I just can't imagine the *why*.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
You can't bring Japan into the equation on that issue. Suicide there is cultural, it's viewed as the honorable way out, something to be admired in many circumstances. An apples-to-apples comparison would be to break it down by similar country culture, economics, industrialization, etc. Or even state by state. When you do that there is a strong and undeniable link between gun ownership and suicide rate and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

And it really has nothing to do with this thread. Of course more guns = more suicides if all else is equal. More cars = more traffic accidents if all else is equal and more workers = more on the job accidents. The issue is not how to stop broken people from killing themselves, it's how to prevent them from killing 60 other people instead.

USA has an average suicide rate of high income countries.

 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Since suicide / self harm is being used by the anti-2A side, let's look at that and compare with everyone's favorite freedom here, the freedom to use tobacco.

Including all forms of death by gun (suicide, homicide, accidents, police shootings) some ~270 people have been killed by a gun in the last three days (the majority of those by far are suicides).

Including all forms of death by tobacco (cancer, other lung disease, second hand smoke killing innocent victims, etc.) about ~4110 people have died.

If you want to get rid of guns or further restrict them given the reality of where they fall in the spectrum of things that kill us while you guys are doing nothing about tobacco, I refuse to believe you are on a quest to save lives. You are on a quest to limit or remove the 2A for partisan illogical emotional reasons.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
What level of reduced firearm violence would honestly make you happy? Be honest. What is the GOAL number of deaths by firearm you would like to see.

Your answer to that question will determine whether or not you are being honest.

What an absurd question you're just trying to bait and snag someone. Problem is you have no bait and you suck at fishing.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,658
12,781
146
Of course. I guess I better sell my Geissele trigger I just bought before I go to jail. I wish they would just get to the heart of the matter and propose repealing the 2A. This kind of stuff doesn't make sense well really this part "any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle". After repealing the 2A, then they need to start confiscating guns if they really want to decrease gun violence. I know why they don't but still just get to it.
Maybe that's the end-game. Don't repeal 2A, just make owning a gun so much of a pain in the ass, only a masochist would bother.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,658
12,781
146
If I had things entirely my way I would probably ban ownership of any gun in the home outside of shotguns
Does that include shotguns with slugs? Rifled barrels? Modified with scary black stuff all over it? Combat shotguns with automated loading mechanisms?
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
What an absurd question you're just trying to bait and snag someone. Problem is you have no bait and you suck at fishing.

No not really. I just wanted to drop this article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...8c702d2d975_story.html?utm_term=.9a554e23b685

Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

I researched the strictly tightened gun laws in Britain and Australia and concluded that they didn’t prove much about what America’s policy should be. Neither nation experienced drops in mass shootings or other gun related-crime that could be attributed to their buybacks and bans. Mass shootings were too rare in Australia for their absence after the buyback program to be clear evidence of progress. And in both Australia and Britain, the gun restrictions had an ambiguous effect on other gun-related crimes or deaths.

When I looked at the other oft-praised policies, I found out that no gun owner walks into the store to buy an “assault weapon.” It’s an invented classification that includes any semi-automatic that has two or more features, such as a bayonet mount, a rocket-propelled grenade-launcher mount, a folding stock or a pistol grip. But guns are modular, and any hobbyist can easily add these features at home, just as if they were snapping together Legos.

As for silencers — they deserve that name only in movies, where they reduce gunfire to a soft puick puick. In real life, silencers limit hearing damage for shooters but don’t make gunfire dangerously quiet. An AR-15 with a silencer is about as loud as a jackhammer. Magazine limits were a little more promising, but a practiced shooter could still change magazines so fast as to make the limit meaningless.

As my co-workers and I kept looking at the data, it seemed less and less clear that one broad gun-control restriction could make a big difference. Two-thirds of gun deaths in the United States every year are suicides. Almost no proposed restriction would make it meaningfully harder for people with guns on hand to use them. I couldn't even answer my most desperate question: If I had a friend who had guns in his home and a history of suicide attempts, was there anything I could do that would help?

However, the next-largest set of gun deaths — 1 in 5 — were young men aged 15 to 34, killed in homicides. These men were most likely to die at the hands of other young men, often related to gang loyalties or other street violence. And the last notable group of similar deaths was the 1,700 women murdered per year, usually as the result of domestic violence. Far more people were killed in these ways than in mass-shooting incidents, but few of the popularly floated policies were tailored to serve them.

By the time we published our project, I didn’t believe in many of the interventions I’d heard politicians tout. I was still anti-gun, at least from the point of view of most gun owners, and I don’t want a gun in my home, as I think the risk outweighs the benefits. But I can’t endorse policies whose only selling point is that gun owners hate them. Policies that often seem as if they were drafted by people who have encountered guns only as a figure in a briefing book or an image on the news.

Instead, I found the most hope in more narrowly tailored interventions. Potential suicide victims, women menaced by their abusive partners and kids swept up in street vendettas are all in danger from guns, but they each require different protections.

Older men, who make up the largest share of gun suicides, need better access to people who could care for them and get them help. Women endangered by specific men need to be prioritized by police, who can enforce restraining orders prohibiting these men from buying and owning guns. Younger men at risk of violence need to be identified before they take a life or lose theirs and to be connected to mentors who can help them de-escalate conflicts.

Even the most data-driven practices, such as New Orleans’ plan to identify gang members for intervention based on previous arrests and weapons seizures, wind up more personal than most policies floated. The young men at risk can be identified by an algorithm, but they have to be disarmed one by one, personally — not en masse as though they were all interchangeable. A reduction in gun deaths is most likely to come from finding smaller chances for victories and expanding those solutions as much as possible. We save lives by focusing on a range of tactics to protect the different kinds of potential victims and reforming potential killers, not from sweeping bans focused on the guns themselves.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Is it really violence though? You wouldn't say countries that have a higher intentional death rate, ( homicide + suicide) combined are "more violent" than the US, yet at the same time include suicide in "violence" studies? For example South Korea, Japan, France, Poland, Belgium have very similar intentional death rates, but everybody agrees that it is America with the "violence" problem.

Yes, suicide is violence.

No perhaps not, but I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority do not kill yourself as your friend does. Especially the prime risk group, those aged 45+.

What is this based on?

Well why not research it when suicide comprises a huge portion of gun violence, haha.

I'm not sure you understood what I wrote. It is not researched due to the difficulty of parsing out individual effects, not because suicide isn't a huge portion of gun violence.

Is a waiting period on a gun an "attempt". I doubt anybody classifies that as an attempt. So that statistic seems meaningless.

Oh definitely, definitely not meaningless. If anything it's probably either the most important or second most important statistic that exists on suicides because it tells us that suicide is not inevitable and even minor interventions at crucial junctions can permanently save lives. (well, permanently save them from suicide at least). A suicide attempt is someone taking a concrete action where the reasonably expected result is their death. Most people who make those attempts and survive never do so again.

This is likely the reason why gun ownership is so strongly associated with increased risk of suicide, by the way. Guns are almost uniquely deadly among the commonly attempted methods of suicide. It's not that owning a gun makes you more likely to TRY to kill yourself, it just makes you way more likely to SUCCEED.

I make stuff up because as we both agree, suicide by gun is a poorly researched subject and studies do not focus on how gun control bills impact suicides because "it is hard to parse out individual effects" despite suicide comprising a huge portion of gun "violence". See how silly that is? Research on gun control bills and their effect on the largest portion of gun deaths should be a PRIMARY FOCUS, if the goal is to reduce suicide by gun? Right?

Suicide by gun is not even remotely a poorly researched subject. You can find hundreds of papers on it, likely thousands. Research on gun control bills and their effect on the largest portion of gun deaths is absolutely the PRIMARY FOCUS. I mean it has been for decades now, where have you been?

What isn't as well understood is waiting periods' specific impact on suicide because these waiting periods are almost always part of a larger gun control bill. Social science generally relies on natural experiments so until more states start passing waiting period only bills it will be quite difficult to evaluate on its own.

Wouldn't perhaps every other country's suicide prevention groups probably agree with me?

I'm not aware of a single suicide prevention group in any country on earth that thinks limiting access to lethal means is not of major importance in preventing suicide.

Seriously not a single solitary one. Why do you think these groups are in such unanimous agreement about something you think doesn't matter?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
If you take away his guns the agenda 21 troopers will come and take him away. The only thing protecting him from that fate is his guns. He also knows every single liberal is in on the plot.

And that is why I still own a gun. Those fucking agenda 21 troopers are NOT going to get me!
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,658
12,781
146
SideA: $ThingA is terrible and caused by $ThingB! We should implement $ProcedureA and remove $AccessToThingB to fix it!
SideB: $ThingA is not always caused by $ThingB! Restricting $AccessToThingB not only won't fix it, it'll make things worse!
SideA: Here's papers with dubious conclusion citing specifically that $ThingA will go away if $ThingB goes away!
SideB: Here's papers that reach the exact opposite conclusion!
SideC: Can we just find some kind of middle ground, that doesn't involve either completely ridding the world of $ThingB, but also alleviates issues with $ThingA?
SideA+B: You don't want issues resolved, you just want to do $OppositeOfMyStance!

Repeat for decades.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
Since suicide / self harm is being used by the anti-2A side, let's look at that and compare with everyone's favorite freedom here, the freedom to use tobacco.

Including all forms of death by gun (suicide, homicide, accidents, police shootings) some ~270 people have been killed by a gun in the last three days (the majority of those by far are suicides).

Including all forms of death by tobacco (cancer, other lung disease, second hand smoke killing innocent victims, etc.) about ~4110 people have died.

If you want to get rid of guns or further restrict them given the reality of where they fall in the spectrum of things that kill us while you guys are doing nothing about tobacco, I refuse to believe you are on a quest to save lives. You are on a quest to limit or remove the 2A for partisan illogical emotional reasons.

Pft. I'm a Respiratory Therapist. I do a lot daily in regards to cigarette cessation. BAN cigarettes. BAN alcohol. BAN drugs. I do none of those things. Won't bother me and will save millions of lives. You are not coming after my guns though. There are more than enough liberal gun owners to prevent that ever happening...

You argument is still, however, full of straw...
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Pft. I'm a Respiratory Therapist. I do a lot daily in regards to cigarette cessation. BAN cigarettes. BAN alcohol. BAN drugs. I do none of those things. Won't bother me and will save millions of lives. You are not coming after my guns though. There are more than enough liberal gun owners to prevent that ever happening...

You argument is still, however, full of straw...

When someone from the anti-2A side brings up a comparison of all deaths in war vs. all deaths caused by guns this site is all for it. When I compare freedoms that show perspective, that show where guns compare to other things no one here is rallying against near the level they are against guns, it is a strawman argument. Gotta love this forum.
 
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