Late 6970?

[Arkadrel]

Quote from Tomshardware: (same link as above)

Of course, I could just be wrong here, and AMD is simply doing a good job of maintaining a low profile to avoid cannibalizing sales of its fastest Radeon HD 5000-series cards. Sometimes, silence speaks volumes, though.

I’m normally fairly decisive, but this is one of those occasions where AMD and Nvidia are launching in such close proximity that it'd almost be silly not to see what happens with Cayman.

Hes not 100% sure... so I think its just him reporting rumors from sites like Fud, so it doesnt read like hes in the know and knows something is off. He also saying its silly not to wait until the 6970 is out to see how that performs against a 580, before buying a 580.

 

[tviceman]

Quote from Tomshardware: (same link as above)




Hes not 100% sure... so I think its just him reporting rumors from sites like Fud, so it doesnt read like hes in the know and knows something is off. He also saying its silly not to wait until the 6970 is out to see how that performs against a 580, before buying a 580.

I don't disagree at all with the notion of waiting, if it's in fact only a few short weeks. In fact the holiday shopping sales haven't hit yet so that's reason enough to wait right there. But if AMD were confident with how Cayman will perform why would rumors of manufacturing problems or delays start surfacing now? Usually the closer a product is to launching, the more the (newer) rumors start to trend towards being true. If we're two weeks before launch, if AMD was ready to go there should be potentially positive leaks about Cayman in reference to it's size, performance, and pricing.

 

[Genx87]

Well in AMDs defense. The 580 rumor only showed up what, 2 weeks ago and here we have a product launch. So it is possible to keep a lid on things. Granted we thought there was going to be a 485 down the line. But most rumors had it in Q1 at the earliest. But if the rumors are true board partners havent even got a hold of the product yet. I dont see how the 6900 series makes it out the door in 2 weeks.

 

[Arkadrel]

I don't disagree at all with the notion of waiting, if it's in fact only a few short weeks. In fact the holiday shopping sales haven't hit yet so that's reason enough to wait right there. But if AMD were confident with how Cayman will perform why would rumors of manufacturing problems or delays start surfacing now? Usually the closer a product is to launching, the more the (newer) rumors start to trend towards being true. If we're two weeks before launch, if AMD was ready to go there should be potentially positive leaks about Cayman in reference to it's size, performance, and pricing.

That is a good question ^-^

Did someone else just launch another product that would benefit from AMD being out late? OR rumors of such?

If we're two weeks before launch, if AMD was ready to go there should be potentially positive leaks about Cayman in reference to it's size, performance, and pricing.

Amd doesnt understand marketing I think... or their worried itd hurt their 5870 sales or something. Im not sure.

 

[Red Storm]

Well in AMDs defense. The 580 rumor only showed up what, 2 weeks ago and here we have a product launch. So it is possible to keep a lid on things. Granted we thought there was going to be a 485 down the line. But most rumors had it in Q1 at the earliest. But if the rumors are true board partners havent even got a hold of the product yet. I dont see how the 6900 series makes it out the door in 2 weeks.

Well to be fair the 580 pretty much is the 485 that everyone was expecting. Even AT's review shares this opinion. Both NVIDIA and AMD have used a somewhat misleading naming scheme with their most recent launches. However, that really doesn't affect us too much, we're the enthusiast crowd that knows what's what.

 

[blastingcap]

I don't disagree at all with the notion of waiting, if it's in fact only a few short weeks. In fact the holiday shopping sales haven't hit yet so that's reason enough to wait right there. But if AMD were confident with how Cayman will perform why would rumors of manufacturing problems or delays start surfacing now? Usually the closer a product is to launching, the more the (newer) rumors start to trend towards being true. If we're two weeks before launch, if AMD was ready to go there should be potentially positive leaks about Cayman in reference to it's size, performance, and pricing.

I've kept track and it's possible that AMD is delaying the launch, but even if so it'd NOT be for manufacturing reasons. What I see from Chinese sites (not FUDzilla which is garbage) is that the drivers are messy (it's not 5D, it's 4D) so they are doing some last-minute tweaks and maybe some BIOS work. So the chips are there, they are just doing some last-minute tweaking to make them perform better prior to shipping. Nov 22 was never an official date, AMD never said that IIRC. If they are not out by, say, Dec. 1, then we know that AMD probably did take extra time to tune the 6970, maybe even waiting to see 580 performance first so they could target that as something to match or beat.

 

[tviceman]

I've kept track and it's possible that AMD is delaying the launch, but even if so it'd NOT be for manufacturing reasons. What I see from Chinese sites (not FUDzilla which is garbage) is that the drivers are messy (it's not 5D, it's 4D) so they are doing some last-minute tweaks and maybe some BIOS work. So the chips are there, they are just doing some last-minute tweaking to make them perform better prior to shipping. Nov 22 was never an official date, AMD never said that IIRC. If they are not out by, say, Dec. 1, then we know that AMD probably did take extra time to tune the 6970, maybe even waiting to see 580 performance first so they could target that as something to match or beat.

Drivers would be a good reason to delay a launch. First impressions are the most lasting ones. But if drivers are the reason for the delayed, then I'm going to say that without a doubt in my mind the leaked 6970 benchmarks from months back were faked.

 

[T2k]

Quote from Tomshardware: (same link as above)




Hes not 100% sure... so I think its just him reporting rumors from sites like Fud, so it doesnt read like hes in the know and knows something is off. He also saying its silly not to wait until the 6970 is out to see how that performs against a 580, before buying a 580.

It's the same single rumor posted on a never-heard sites, going through the usual endless circles of cross-referencing on rumor sites.

I've kept track and it's possible that AMD is delaying the launch, but even if so it'd NOT be for manufacturing reasons. What I see from Chinese sites (not FUDzilla which is garbage) is that the drivers are messy (it's not 5D, it's 4D) so they are doing some last-minute tweaks and maybe some BIOS work. So the chips are there, they are just doing some last-minute tweaking to make them perform better prior to shipping. Nov 22 was never an official date, AMD never said that IIRC. If they are not out by, say, Dec. 1, then we know that AMD probably did take extra time to tune the 6970, maybe even waiting to see 580 performance first so they could target that as something to match or beat.

I bet it's actually due to GTX580 - they wanted to make sure they beat it by a whole mile, not just so-so, to maintain superiority until new architecture arrives in Fall 2011.
It's actually surprising NV did go along, they should've waited 'til AMD let 6970/6990 launch... even though they probably reached the maximum with GTX580 at least they could've thwarted AMD's last-minute tweaking efforts IMO.

 

[tviceman]

I bet it's actually due to GTX580 - they wanted to make sure they beat it by a whole mile, not just so-so, to maintain superiority until new architecture arrives in Fall 2011.
It's actually surprising NV did go along, they should've waited 'til AMD let 6970/6990 launch... even though they probably reached the maximum with GTX580 at least they could've thwarted AMD's last-minute tweaking efforts IMO.

I seriously laugh out loud and roll my eyes at the same time when I read about these amazing prerelease "tweaks" companies might be doing. If the 6970 is faster than the gtx580, it won't be because of last minute tweaks. First of all, tweaks are just that. 1% here, 1% there maybe. 1% is not the difference between "whole mile" and just so-so. Further, no company on earth with the think tank smarter than a group of retards is going to raise clock speeds 10% and thus horribly plummet their yield percentage at target TDP goals just to win a pissing contest.

Sorry but common sense has to prevail somewhere in the world.

 

[Genx87]

Or Nvidia wanted a head start. Nvidia knows where they are and what they can bring to the table. I really dont think AMD if the 6970 isnt beating the 580 can up the clocks enough in a few weeks to make it a home run product. Unless they delay and respin it. Which puts them out months. Either way I dont think Nvidia really hurt themselves by bringing this product out right now. Either AMD will have to majorly rework their product to crush the 580 or the 6970 was going to crush anyways.

Nvidia got a head start, will sell their product until the 6970 shows up. And in the meantime bring in the rest of the product line. Once the 6970 shows up Nvidia will price their product competitively. Each day AMD doesnt release their product is one day closer to Kempler.

 

[Arkadrel]

I kinda agrre with Genx87.
The sooner the 6970s are out the better.

I also agree with Tviceman, at this point its probably minor at best what they can do to tweak it. Which is why I dont think it ll crush the 580.... its probably too close to call, so their trying to find every single 1% more they can squeeze out of the 6970 before launch. It could be drivers, it could be some bios adjustments to increase GPU core speeds.

The rumors where it was supposed to be launched with a 860mhz core, Im willing to bet when the final launch of the 6970 is out, we ll see it has a core speed thats higher than that. Why? because its too close to call, they probably underestimated what nvidia would put out and are now looking to do some adjustments or something.

 

[tviceman]

Here's a further hint that the hd6970 won't outperform the gtx580. Apoppin did a phone interview with AMD this morning and is publishing it in the next few days. In the conclusion of his gtx580 review, he very briefly summarized the interview with:

Basically his message was that AMD expected this improved version of Fermi and is well-prepared to counter it now and with their further release of their upcoming HD 6000 series. They feel that AMD has the right product and the right price point and that competition is good.

http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=21778&page=30

The right product at the right price point? That sounds like total PR spin to me. If AMD had something that was going to be blatantly faster than the gtx580, then I can think of about 10 different phrases or key words that could have been used (without giving away NDA information) and would have been way more reassuring/telling than that.

 

[Daedalus685]

Here's a further hint that the hd6970 won't outperform the gtx580. Apoppin did a phone interview with AMD this morning and is publishing it in the next few days. In the conclusion of his gtx580 review, he very briefly summarized the interview with:



http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=21778&page=30

The right product at the right price point? That sounds like total PR spin to me. If AMD had something that was going to be blatantly faster than the gtx580, then I can think of about 10 different phrases or key words that could have been used (without giving away NDA information) and would have been way more reassuring/telling than that.

I don't think you can read much into that though. It is about as general and vague as they could be... Which is not uncommon at all for that kind of interview.

It reads more as "We have a product at the correct price to compete with it right now (the 5970) and will have an answer soon."

It seems to me he means they are positioned to counter it with current product price cuts, which is definitely PR spin at its finest. I think the quote is more about PR spin that they don't even need an answer to it but future products are coming soon.

 

[T2k]

I seriously laugh out loud and roll my eyes at the same time when I read about these amazing prerelease "tweaks" companies might be doing. If the 6970 is faster than the gtx580, it won't be because of last minute tweaks. First of all, tweaks are just that. 1% here, 1% there maybe. 1% is not the difference between "whole mile" and just so-so. Further, no company on earth with the think tank smarter than a group of retards is going to raise clock speeds 10% and thus horribly plummet their yield percentage at target TDP goals just to win a pissing contest.

Sorry but common sense has to prevail somewhere in the world.

Ummm, you know, between two eyerolls and ignorant laughs you might want to read about the subject first next time - because it's fairly well-known that any IHV can achieve even 50%+ jump by simply rewriting drivers to match certain game engines - but I'm sure facts usually don't bother you so just keep laughing...:awe:

 

[Arkadrel]

@Tviceman

your right... it might end up only being 95% performance of a 580 or something like that. The point is even if its slightly slower, AMD are probably gonna fight it by selling it alot cheaper than Nvidia sells their 580s.

Im still not sure if it ll actually end up slower though, those chinese benchmarks seem to indicate it was pretty darn fast (if those are true).

 

[T2k]

Here's a further hint that the hd6970 won't outperform the gtx580. Apoppin did a phone interview with AMD this morning and is publishing it in the next few days. In the conclusion of his gtx580 review, he very briefly summarized the interview with:



http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=21778&page=30

The right product at the right price point? That sounds like total PR spin to me. If AMD had something that was going to be blatantly faster than the gtx580, then I can think of about 10 different phrases or key words that could have been used (without giving away NDA information) and would have been way more reassuring/telling than that.

I nominate it to be The Most Hilarious Illogical Nonsense of the Day today...

 

[tviceman]

Ummm, you know, between two eyerolls and ignorant laughs you might want to read about the subject first next time - because it's fairly well-known that any IHV can achieve even 50%+ jump by simply rewriting your drivers - but I'm sure facts usually don't bother you so just keep laughing...:awe:

Yes I forgot. They've had the chips off the assembly line for months now, they're already outbenching the slow/hot/late gtx480 by a whopping 30% in leaked benchmarks, but the drivers are still broken and need to be fixed before being released because they're going to get another 20% from driver improvements in the next few days and it'll make the hd5970 look like a gt430. You've got it figured out.

 

[T2k]

I kinda agrre with Genx87.
The sooner the 6970s are out the better.

I also agree with Tviceman, at this point its probably minor at best what they can do to tweak it.

Well, I'm not sure the best tactics is to side with the least knowledgeable because he is the loudest one...

Which is why I dont think it ll crush the 580.... its probably too close to call, so their trying to find every single 1% more they can squeeze out of the 6970 before launch. It could be drivers, it could be some bios adjustments to increase GPU core speeds.

The rumors where it was supposed to be launched with a 860mhz core, Im willing to bet when the final launch of the 6970 is out, we ll see it has a core speed thats higher than that. Why? because its too close to call, they probably underestimated what nvidia would put out and are now looking to do some adjustments or something.

Speculation, speculation, speculation... and still amounts to nothing.

 

[Daedalus685]

Yes I forgot. They've had the chips off the assembly line for months now, they're already outbenching the slow/hot/late gtx480 by a whopping 30% in leaked benchmarks, but the drivers are still broken and need to be fixed before being released because they're going to get another 20% from driver improvements in the next few days and it'll make the hd5970 look like a gt430. You've got it figured out.

Nah, don't you see? It is all a conspiracy and GPUs have not changed since 2002. The companies just rewrite the driers every few months to up the performance on "new" cards by 50% to trick us all!

 

[T2k]

Yes I forgot. They've had the chips off the assembly line for months now, they're already outbenching the slow/hot/late gtx480 by a whopping 30% in leaked benchmarks, but the drivers are still broken and need to be fixed before being released because they're going to get another 20% from driver improvements in the next few days and it'll make the hd5970 look like a gt430. You've got it figured out.

You obviously have nothing to do with either sw development or 3D apps, I can tell. :twisted:

 

[Arkadrel]

Yes I forgot. They've had the chips off the assembly line for months now, they're already outbenching the slow/hot/late gtx480 by a whopping 30% in leaked benchmarks, but the drivers are still broken and need to be fixed before being released because they're going to get another 20% from driver improvements in the next few days and it'll make the hd5970 look like a gt430. You've got it figured out.

That does sound unlikely... if it turns out true, Im sure you ll be eating your words though

 

[T2k]

Nah, don't you see? It is all a conspiracy and GPUs have not changed since 2002. The companies just rewrite the driers every few months to up the performance on "new" cards by 50% to trick us all!

Well, only the most clueless gamer cannot recall when every single new card receives a nice speed bumps in major games after a month or two - what do you think, how is it possible for several years now?

 

[badb0y]

Here's a further hint that the hd6970 won't outperform the gtx580. Apoppin did a phone interview with AMD this morning and is publishing it in the next few days. In the conclusion of his gtx580 review, he very briefly summarized the interview with:



http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=21778&page=30

The right product at the right price point? That sounds like total PR spin to me. If AMD had something that was going to be blatantly faster than the gtx580, then I can think of about 10 different phrases or key words that could have been used (without giving away NDA information) and would have been way more reassuring/telling than that.

tviceman, let's break it down shall we?

We can all agree that Cayman will beat the GTX 480 or else why release such a shitty card right?

If we look at the performance of the GTX 580 over the GTX 480 it around 15-20% faster across the board so that doesn't leave much space for Cayman to be slower than GTX 580 and be faster then GTX 480.

Say we put Cayman at 10% faster than GTX 480 and 10% slower than GTX 580.

Now for the pricing, I want to go back to Barts with this, the reason why Barts was released was not to specifically replace Cypress or Juniper, it was supposed to fill a gap that AMD had in the line up. If we assume that AMD wants to avoid creating this gap again I am going to go out on a limb and say Cayman shouldn't have an MSRP over $399.99.

Of course I can be wrong, Cayman can be a dud, and Antilles may explode but this is just my $.02

 

[Daedalus685]

Well, only the most clueless gamer cannot recall when every single new card receives a nice speed bumps in major games after a month or two - what do you think, how is it possible for several years now?

It is not a one time speed bump. It is a very gradual bug fix and optimization in specific games.

They can't just rewrite the drivers to compete with a new card because they all of a sudden want to. It would take months. It is also never a general performance boost, the fixes are always specific to popular games as they optimize some of the code to work better in a particular title.

 

[T2k]

It is not a one time speed bump. It is a very gradual bug fix and optimization in specific games.

No it's not. It can be both but read back, I was specifically referring to big jumps.

They can't just rewrite the drivers to compete with a new card because they all of a sudden want to.

Yes, they can except not the way you misunderstood what I said...

It would take months.

Rewriting from scratch: yes. Rewriting per-game/per-method/etc parts: no.

It is also never a general performance boost, the fixes are always specific to popular games as they optimize some of the code to work better in a particular title.

Exactly. And when you have a new architecture it's typically several weeks until you actually start seeing which way to move with your drivers, with all these fixes. In other words all they have to do is bring forward what might have been prioritized lower here and simultaneously keep testing for the highest stable clocks and settings.