Latency and the Internet

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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Although I think that I have a basic handle on it, would someone please explain to me exactly what causes latency on the internet? And why it is worse for wireless and satellite?

Also, is there any viable tech on the horizon that could eliminate it?
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
NOT Highly technical, but I'll answer it.

Latency is the travel time plus the speed at which the router can receive and then retransmit your information.

Satellite latency is caused by the travel time from here to the satellite and back.
 

blahblah99

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 2000
2,689
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Wireless and satellite latency is greater than wired latency because of the additional overhead of processing the data.

Latency in wired networks is cause by the physical speed at which electrons travel in wires, and the ability of the hardware and software to process the signals and data.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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Right, that's about what I knew already.

Any new tech on the horizon that could eliminate it?
 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
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Well, theres processing latency and transfer latency. processing latency you can reduce down to effectively 0 as computers get faster and faster, transfer latency you can do nothing about as it's limited to the speed of light. It takes about 300ms minimum to transmit a packet from one side of the globe to the other and about 1000ms to transmit from ground to satellite to ground again. This is the absolute best we can do (unless we drilled into the center of the earth or something).
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Well, theres processing latency and transfer latency. processing latency you can reduce down to effectively 0 as computers get faster and faster, transfer latency you can do nothing about as it's limited to the speed of light. It takes about 300ms minimum to transmit a packet from one side of the globe to the other and about 1000ms to transmit from ground to satellite to ground again. This is the absolute best we can do (unless we drilled into the center of the earth or something).

Transfer is pretty close to 100% efficient? I find that a little depressing.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
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Can you think of any application that requires a local (national/states, whatever) latency of less than 20-50ms? I cant, offhand.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: unipidity
Can you think of any application that requires a local (national/states, whatever) latency of less than 20-50ms? I cant, offhand.

Any kind of real-time control application with feedback (such as, for example, remote robotic operation or, in a more common example, computer games). I can't think of anything that would *need* to go much lower than 10ms or so, though.

Transfer is pretty close to 100% efficient? I find that a little depressing.

Well, there's not much that can be done to speed up the rate that a particular packet moves along a particular wire, but one thing you *can* do is to install more long-distance fiber links so that there are fewer "hops" between your source and destination. The Internet2 project, for example, follows this approach, and connections between sites on it are VERY fast (we had it at school. It rocked.)

But, no, I doubt you'll get much below 20-50ms across the net anytime soon.
 

Sacrilicious

Junior Member
May 3, 2004
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If I remember my analog circuits properly, transfering over a copper wire is definitely not 100% efficient. The longer the wire, the less efficient the transfer due to the resistance of the copper. Now, most ISPs have their own internal networks on optical connections of some sort (which have much better efficiency and throughput). but there's always miles of copper wire that go from them to your house. There's also the connection from your ISP to the rest of the world, and this will vary a lot depending on where in the rest of the world you happen to be trying to contact due to distance and much extra latency is created by the material you're transfering over. Ideally, with current technology, we would be stringing out optical connections from point to point to minimize the latency of the transfer, but optical networks are TERRIBLY expensive. So, unless we can come up with something that's practical from a cost point of view, we're not going to be doing much better than the copper connections we have right now. All this, and we're only taking into account the mere latency of sending the information over the physical connection.

We also have to take into account the fact that processing needs to be done on this information at countless internet gateways, routers, and other nodes. Although individually, these events do not take all that long, they all add up to become a noticably delay. This is where bandwidth comes into play. Ethernet works on a protocol called CSMA/CD. I will not bother to explain the details of how this works, because it's easy enough to look up, but it is a very simple algorithm whose efficiency becomes MISERABLE at over 50% utilization. What this means is that if you have a relatively heavily saturated network, you're delays caused by the very way your ethernet protocol is working are crippling. Add this to the way TCP/IP works (every time you send a packet, you need to get an acknowledgement from the receiver that they have received the packet), and you have a lot of places where you can get screwed on latency. This is why your download speeds get killed when you are using up most of your upload. Because you can't send out acknowledgements to the sender that you have received their packets very quickly, they spend a lot of time waiting to hear from you before sending you more packets. All these things I mentioned here can be improved on. The nodes can be made faster and more efficient (algorithm-wise), the ethernet protocol can be made MUCH more intelligent, and TCP/IP can be modified so that it will do less waiting and more accepting of subsequent packets. Now, with this said, making these changes would be a HUGE project and terribly difficult to switch over to due to compatibility and money, but I'm just giving options at this point.

So, if you take into account just these things that I have mentioned (and I assure you there's plenty more that I haven't thought of off the top of my head), there's a LOT of places where we can improve on to minimize latency over the internet. Whether it happens anytime soon is a different story...;-)

 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
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BTW: I forgot to mention, all figures quoted in my previous post are round trip latencies. It may or may not be fortunate that 300 ms is the maximum latency because it happens to be right at the threshold of when humans start getting disorientated at the feedback of a system. In virtual reality simulations, anything more than 300ms and people start getting a headache. In real-time video conferencing, a delay of more than 300ms causes people to speak in a different manner and makes them feel awkward.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
163
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Aye, I suppose long-distance communications might be useful, but as a game-player, I certainly cant tell the difference between a 20ms server and a 50ms. Certainly I doubt a strong demand for 10ms latency exists, excepting possibly in UCAVs or other military applications.
 

Shalmanese

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,157
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A human might not but a computer certainly will. Introducing a delay of 10ms in many control algorithms drastically reduces their efficiency. Also, computer games introduce a whole host of refinements to make the latency seem a lot less than it is. For example, when you move the mouse, your view moves instantenously. wheras tele-operated situations mean that every action takes at least n ms to do.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Well, theres processing latency and transfer latency. processing latency you can reduce down to effectively 0 as computers get faster and faster, transfer latency you can do nothing about as it's limited to the speed of light. It takes about 300ms minimum to transmit a packet from one side of the globe to the other and about 1000ms to transmit from ground to satellite to ground again. This is the absolute best we can do (unless we drilled into the center of the earth or something).

Transfer is pretty close to 100% efficient? I find that a little depressing.
Transfer efficiency isn't really close to 100%, since the layout of our internet backbones is so bassackwards. That's what the Internet 2 is all about - generating more linear (less branched) routing from place to place that decreases transfer and, hopefully, processing latency. So far, only universities have it as far as I know, and even then only in small amounts. There's a program out there that you can try for free called NeoTrace - if you put in an IP address, it will supply you with a map of the geographic locations of the hops it has to make to get there - pretty interesting stuff.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Drakkon
http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/3403161 -- they are getting faster though

I've seen research that indicates power lines (albeit idealized power lines) can transmit up to 4 exobytes/second (4,000,000,000,000,000,000 bytes/second). Problem is, the transfer decreases to almost nothing if you use the same wire to actually transmit power. This was several years ago, haven't heard anything about it since.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
163
0
0
But what exact relevance does that have to the discussion at hand? A massive bandwidth might be nice, but there are no guarantees about latency. Look at satellite internet my friend's uncle had- 1mb down, but couldnt play games on it...
 

SonicIce

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2004
4,771
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If any new technology did come out to greatly decrease latency, the ISP's would jack the prices though the roof, or totally reject it.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
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Originally posted by: SonicIce
If any new technology did come out to greatly decrease latency, the ISP's would jack the prices though the roof, or totally reject it.

Rather, no sane ISP would spend a lot of money to drop latencies, since the vast majority of customers would never notice the difference. If they were able to do it in a selective way, I'm sure at least *some* ISPs would offer it as an 'upgrade' to their service, similar to the way that many (at least many cable ISPs) currently offer higher-speed 'business' service with much better upload and download speeds, and sometimes quality-of-service guarantees.

There's also the problem that even if your ISP was to upgrade their entire network (or at least each local piece of their network) to <1ms latency technology, that does absolutely nothing for you if the rest of the Internet (and, in particular, the networks servicing the servers you're trying to talk to) don't upgrade in a similar fashion. Well, I guess it would shave a bit of time off your ping, but generally only the first few hops of an 'external' connection are actually within your ISP's network.
 
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