Law School Bubble Bursting?

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
Pop Goes the Law

"... applications ... heading toward a 30-year low, reflecting, as a New York Times article put it, "increased concern over soaring tuition, crushing student debt, and diminishing prospects of lucrative employment upon graduation." Since 2004 the number of law-school applicants has dropped from almost 100,000 to 54,000.

Good thing, too. That loud pop you're hearing is the bursting of the law bubble—firms, schools, and disillusioned lawyers paying for decades of greed and grandiosity."

Law Schools’ Applications Fall as Costs Rise and Jobs Are Cut

"The drop in law school applications is unlike what is happening in almost any other graduate or professional training, except perhaps to veterinarians. Medical school applications have been rising steadily for the past decade. ...

Debra W. Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools, said first-time enrollments to master of business degree programs were steady — a 0.8 percent increase among Americans in 2011 after a decade of substantial growth. But growth in first-time foreign student enrollments — 13 percent over the same period — made up the difference, something from which law schools cannot benefit, since foreigners have less interest in American legal training."

Three Questions
One
Agree that Law School bubble is bursting?

Two
Is this a unique phenomenon, or do you think that it is the first of a string of school bubbles that are going to burst?

Three
Other comments concerning bubbles in graduate and/or professional education?

Uno
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,559
205
106
Too bad the lawyers have already reduced quality of life and added increased costs to everyday items that should not need costs of litigation added to them.

I remember hearing back in high school 1991-1995 that there were too many lawyers and the starting pay was so low because of the supply of lawyers. Seems like this took way too long to occur.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
0
We have 2 people at my work that work as entry level Support. They both have BARs/law degrees.

We have a huge lawfirm as one of our clients and they confirm that most of their clients have tightened their belts (few years back) and it's no more a free/wild west like it used to be. They used to be able to charge their clients WHATEVER they wanted. Now they have to give clients quote and stick to them.

I worked at a big lawfirm 7 years ago and I guess these lawyers that used to work 12-15 hour days all week are now working longer hours for even lesser pay. Kind of sad cause those people were already so burned out and on the verge of losing their families/life.

Law bubble popped years ago. Now it's just a matter of Tuition bubble going pop (and this needed to happen MANY years ago as well).

Chances are it won't happen though....
 

Anonemous

Diamond Member
May 19, 2003
7,361
1
71
I always thought earning potential was a gamble for Law students that was based on which school they came from, their specialty, and of course what percentile they were in their class. For every law grad that lands in the big firms, there are like 100s that don't. So they end up with 30-50K/year jobs and can't pay their school loans. In contrast to med students, even if you graduate at the bottom of your class and pass your boards/residencies, you are still a doctor and can become a family doctor and scrape by at 100K /year.
 

Abe Froman

Golden Member
Dec 14, 2004
1,057
4
81
The Califonia Bar has actually published articles detailing why you should not go to law school right now. No one is hiring new grads, and even experienced lawyers are working as paralegals and legal temps for hourly wages. For the last 10 years, anyone who doesn't mind reading for 2 hours straight has decided it's a good time to become a lawyer. But year after year, there are more people in law school than there are lawyers practicing.
 

Anonemous

Diamond Member
May 19, 2003
7,361
1
71
wonder why less applications to be veterinarians?

Vet schools are harder to get into then med schools from what I heard. (there's not too many schools out there to begin with) Not to mention memorizing the physiology and treatments for multiple species vs. just one which is already complex as it is.

Plus earning potential for a DVM is not as great as an MD.
 
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wirednuts

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2007
7,121
4
0
They used to be able to charge their clients WHATEVER they wanted. Now they have to give clients quote and stick to them.

QUOTE]

well that pretty much explains why that industry is hurting. they certainly didnt see a lack of trials going on....
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
I've heard it's a shit job anyway for most lawyers. If you get hired on by a good firm you work your BALLS off to gain seniority. So you can make some decent money but have no life outside of work anyway. You could work at a lower stress firm, but a law degree is absolutely no ticket to the big money like medicine is (even though the latter has huge debts and ever-increasing costs, too).
 

crunkzilla

Member
Mar 30, 2012
72
0
61
IF medical applications are on the rise, wont there eventually be a glut of doctors too lowering their starting pay?
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
0
In December 2008 after I graduated college I was walking down the street with an LSAT practice book, having just completed a practice test. A big fat guy in a suit and ten gallon hat (odd for Tacoma, Washington) with a thick Texas accent put his hand up as we crossed paths on the sidewalk and exclaimed "Don't do it!" He proceeded to go on about layoffs all over the country, graduates not finding work, etc.

Sucks though as I'm really interested in law and would definitely take time someday to study it, if it were as expensive as normal grad school.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
IF medical applications are on the rise, wont there eventually be a glut of doctors too lowering their starting pay?

From what I understand there are limited residency slots at hospitals that regulate the flow of new doctors. Supposedly The AMA keeps a lid on that shit to keep salaries high.
 

Sust

Senior member
Sep 1, 2001
600
0
71
IF medical applications are on the rise, wont there eventually be a glut of doctors too lowering their starting pay?

Medical schools(allopathic ones is all I know) require accreditation by the AAMC and have to meet a very very high standard of training to qualify.

Furthermore, even if accredited med schools increase student acceptance, there is still a limited number of residency positions since theyre regulated by medicare(i.e. your tax dollars).

In short, the physician shortage wont be filled any time soon given the very strict regulation mentioned above, but there seems to be a fairly large push on mid-level providers though.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
In December 2008 after I graduated college I was walking down the street with an LSAT practice book, having just completed a practice test. A big fat guy in a suit and ten gallon hat (odd for Tacoma, Washington) with a thick Texas accent put his hand up as we crossed paths on the sidewalk and exclaimed "Don't do it!" He proceeded to go on about layoffs all over the country, graduates not finding work, etc.

Sucks though as I'm really interested in law and would definitely take time someday to study it, if it were as expensive as normal grad school.

Does your employer have tuition reimbursement? If so, take the risk on their dime, not yours.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
0
Does your employer have tuition reimbursement? If so, take the risk on their dime, not yours.

I'm self employed. I might do it sometime in the future, my location is up in the air right now so who knows if I end up getting state residency someplace where I could get cheap in state tuition and continue to work. As a Washington resident it is pretty expensive no matter how you look at it.

I really wouldn't be concerned with the status of the school.. in fact lower tier is better so I don't have to be too stressed on the application process

I'll probably do it someday. Don't even want to be a lawyer
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Too bad the lawyers have already reduced quality of life and added increased costs to everyday items that should not need costs of litigation added to them.

My wife's friend graduated from law school a few years ago and I went to the graduation ceremony. Some windbag (I think he was the Dean) got up there and was talking about how lawyers were such an honorable and noble profession and were the cornerstone of society. I burst out laughing and my wife had to elbow me really hard to shut me up.
 

Dirigible

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2006
5,961
30
91
I'm self employed. I might do it sometime in the future, my location is up in the air right now so who knows if I end up getting state residency someplace where I could get cheap in state tuition and continue to work. As a Washington resident it is pretty expensive no matter how you look at it.

I really wouldn't be concerned with the status of the school.. in fact lower tier is better so I don't have to be too stressed on the application process

I'll probably do it someday. Don't even want to be a lawyer

If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't go. Don't waste your time and money. You can learn plenty about law without law school. Just pick a legal subject you're interested in and start reading the laws and cases.
 

dr150

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2003
6,571
24
81
My wife's friend graduated from law school a few years ago and I went to the graduation ceremony. Some windbag (I think he was the Dean) got up there and was talking about how lawyers were such an honorable and noble profession and were the cornerstone of society. I burst out laughing and my wife had to elbow me really hard to shut me up.

I would start laughing too if some pretentious fop started vomiting such lies.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,914
3
0
If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't go. Don't waste your time and money. You can learn plenty about law without law school. Just pick a legal subject you're interested in and start reading the laws and cases.

If I were making a decent amount of money and could get in state tuition at, say, University of Montana Law School (just picking something off the top of my head that I assume is cheap) I'd probably go in my spare time. Some of the in state tuitions around the country are just like any other grad school
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,158
20
81
Okay, because there's too many idiots who think they can do well as a lawyer. Nope. Not true. I know enough Ivy League law student grads making $150k+ out of school. Just gotta do well.

I find this similar to when I was in school and a bunch of idiots on my floor were like "Yeah I'm pre-business." Okay, do you think any of you have a chance with the cutthroat Asians who will destroy you in GPA anyday? Nope.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Okay, because there's too many idiots who think they can do well as a lawyer. Nope. Not true. I know enough Ivy League law student grads making $150k+ out of school. Just gotta do well.

Yes. Ivy Leaguers. Ice hockey is a pretty good career because you can make millions of dollars in your twenties. Just gotta do well.
 

JimKiler

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2002
3,559
205
106
My wife's friend graduated from law school a few years ago and I went to the graduation ceremony. Some windbag (I think he was the Dean) got up there and was talking about how lawyers were such an honorable and noble profession and were the cornerstone of society. I burst out laughing and my wife had to elbow me really hard to shut me up.

Funny. I know there are good lawyers who do a lot of selfless work and work to help society, but at the same time there are so many bad ones that want to sue for any and everything.
 
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