LCD Buyer's Guide

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xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
Originally posted by: talgtapp
How would 215TW and 20WGX2 measure to Eizo FlexScan S2000?

If i strech my budget i might be able to get the Eizo. Does the 10-Bit look up table and 14-Bit Internal Processing offer real colour improvments and securety (for correct colours)?

The Eizo would have less gradation in colors, but the NEC's gamma curve is just as accurate. Going with Eizo is never a bad idea for photo editing as you probably get better support. I would pay the extra if I edited photos for a company and needed proofing, and if response time wasn't a concern (not sure that it's that great on the Eizos). It doesn't look like it's that much more money, so why not?
 

alangenh

Junior Member
Nov 3, 2006
5
0
0
xtknight -- thanks for the pointers on DPI -- setting the DPI does seem like the right way to fix my problem, if only there was a way to do it. Out of curiosity, do you know how one would set a DPI per screen under linux?

The only HDTV I've watched are downloaded movie trailers, since I don't have an HDTV cable box yet. The movie trailers look great though. So much detail you feel like you're there.

hhan9 -- I know you didn't ask for my two cents, but I'll give it anyway.

I had a situation very similar to yours -- I have a macbook, and wanted a second monitor. I have a feeling they're all good monitors, but the 215TW was my choice. I have the laptop sitting in front of the lcd, so I can make use of both screens. This is a great setup, but it wouldn't work as well without height adjustment, which the NEC doesn't have. I suppose you could stack it on top of books or something, but it's just not the same.

As for the glossy screen -- I do love the glossy screen on my macbook, but the 215TW doesn't make me feel like I'm suffering without it. Given the tradeoffs in both directions, I didn't want to spend the extra $250 it would have cost me given deals available to me at the time.

I have a Dell 2007fpb at work (non-widescreen, I don't know if it's the same other specs as the 2007fpw or not) but it's not nearly as nice as the 215TW is. The image just doesn't look as high quality; I don't know enough about lcd's to quantify it more than that. I also like the menu system on the 215TW more than the Dell (which doesn't appear to have straightforward contrast adjustment...? At least, not in the same menu where brightness adjustment is. I haven't been able to find it.)

I think the 215TW (and the NEC) would be great for a mini home theater -- it's hard for me to stop watching video on mine. I thought it would help me work, but actually what it often helps me do is watch a movie in it while I still work in the laptop screen. O
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: alangenh
xtknight -- thanks for the pointers on DPI -- setting the DPI does seem like the right way to fix my problem, if only there was a way to do it. Out of curiosity, do you know how one would set a DPI per screen under linux?

Sorry, I jumped the gun a bit there. I don't even think what you're talking about is possible. I thought DPI options were under 'screen' parameters but apparently they're by 'device' (graphics card). I'm not sure how clone mode would be handled if each screen had a different DPI. If you also had two graphics cards it would be possible, and it would probably be fine in Linux with that config.

What programs do you use? Most have zoom functions so that you could just set the zoom factor higher (or lower) on one LCD. That wouldn't work unless you had multiple desktops. I'm sort of confused here though. Do you want to edit the same document on both LCDs and have different text sizes on each one? If you were to edit different documents you could just set the zoom property for each instance of the program.
 

alangenh

Junior Member
Nov 3, 2006
5
0
0
I'm kind of wondering if resolution independence (which the next Mac OS and Vista, last I heard, will have) will help or not. To read what Apple is telling developers about it, search for "resolution independence" on this page:
http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview/

Zooming is easy for one file, but for tons and tons of files, it's too much trouble for that to be a good solution. I tend to go through browser tabs like a crazy crazy thing, and also programming terminals. I also live in macjournal, which is an interface to what amounts to tons of text files. I want to be able to use that last one in either monitor, but I don't want to constantly have to re-zoom the text size on all those individual text files.

It's probably just something that'll take some getting used it, and then it'll stop bothering me. I will probably learn to only use a web browser and macjournal on my laptop screen. I can probably set up two keyboard shortcuts for terminals of different configurations depending on which monitor I'm aiming at, and that will help. I probably shouldn't get too excited about resolution independence at this stage of the game, but I hope it will help.

FYI,
215TW: 93 PPI
macbook: 112 PPI

The numbers don't look that different, but it's enough to make me wish the 215TW was 112 PPI.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
alangenh: you know what? I think I was right the first time...you should be able to specify a DPI for each monitor (specify DisplaySize as whatever you want). Details here: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xorg#Display_Size.2FDPI

AFAIK Mac OS X also uses (or can use) X11/Xorg so if it's possible in Linux it will very likely be possible in Leopard.

Why don't you give a free Ubuntu (ppc arch) Edgy LiveCD a try and find out? I don't have a free second monitor here to test it out. I'll see what I can do tomorrow with the secondary input on my screen, as each input on the monitor is considered another "monitor" in theory.

Here was my reply before I realized that:

---------------

Originally posted by: alangenh
I'm kind of wondering if resolution independence (which the next Mac OS and Vista, last I heard, will have) will help or not. To read what Apple is telling developers about it, search for "resolution independence" on this page:
http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview/

I think what they are saying is that glyph (font character) size will be specified in metrics (physical units, as opposed to arbitrary ones such as pixels, twips, or point). That's certainly a good idea, but it will fall apart when you enable clone mode on a dual monitor setup. Clone mode is done at the video card level. The image for the screen is rendered and sent to the video card. The video card then duplicates it and sends it out the second video port. At that point, no vector data exists. It is all a flat raster image to which no true font scaling can be performed.

Now they could get around this by sending a separate screen to each port and then scaling the second screen, but then, providing your LCDs are running at different resolutions (or physical sizes in this case), the screens would be out of sync since the higher resolution screen could hold more GUI content. I don't know what would happen then, but I suspect they will never get to that point. I don't think the feature will exist as it will be way too complicated to implement.

I can only imagine what a nightmare you're having squinting trying to read the text on the laptop while trying to read the monitor at the same time. Ouch...are you sure you don't just want another desktop LCD? I like high-DPI TFTs as well, but as implemented in laptops they tend to be eye-strain inducing not only due to the small font size, but the poor contrast and TN panel...maybe you should just hook up the 215TW, close the lid, and call it a day? It just seems like it would be pretty hard on your neck with that kind of config. If you need more desktop area the best thing to do is to invest in another desktop LCD. If you decide to go that route, the Samsung 205BW would be a good value LCD. I know that's gotta be hard to justify after putting in ~$500 toward the 215TW, and you probably didn't expect me to recommend you another LCD, but from the perspective it's the only thing that makes sense here. I would either use only the 215TW or get a complementary LCD.

Zooming is easy for one file, but for tons and tons of files, it's too much trouble for that to be a good solution. I tend to go through browser tabs like a crazy crazy thing, and also programming terminals. I also live in macjournal, which is an interface to what amounts to tons of text files. I want to be able to use that last one in either monitor, but I don't want to constantly have to re-zoom the text size on all those individual text files.

It's probably just something that'll take some getting used it, and then it'll stop bothering me. I will probably learn to only use a web browser and macjournal on my laptop screen. I can probably set up two keyboard shortcuts for terminals of different configurations depending on which monitor I'm aiming at, and that will help. I probably shouldn't get too excited about resolution independence at this stage of the game, but I hope it will help.

FYI,
215TW: 93 PPI
macbook: 112 PPI

The numbers don't look that different, but it's enough to make me wish the 215TW was 112 PPI.

 

eeric

Member
Sep 12, 2006
39
0
0
hey xtknight i have a question...

on my dell 2007wfp (still amazed), i noticed that between VGA and DVI inputs, VGA actually looks better with default settings. when doing a direct comparison, (its very slight but noticeable) the dvi seems brighter and a bit washed out... but this is with defaults (and the vga did the auto adjust)... but even after doing some minor tweaking with brightness, the colours still seem a bit more vibrant on vga. any comments?
 

joweyx

Junior Member
Oct 9, 2006
13
0
0
Hello Friends!

i would like to know, I saw the 2007WFP is HDCP compatible, is the 2007fp (non Widescreen) HDCP compatible too?

Thanks
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: joweyx
Hello Friends!

i would like to know, I saw the 2007WFP is HDCP compatible, is the 2007fp (non Widescreen) HDCP compatible too?

Thanks

The 2007FP is not HDCP compliant.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: eeric
hey xtknight i have a question...

on my dell 2007wfp (still amazed), i noticed that between VGA and DVI inputs, VGA actually looks better with default settings. when doing a direct comparison, (its very slight but noticeable) the dvi seems brighter and a bit washed out... but this is with defaults (and the vga did the auto adjust)... but even after doing some minor tweaking with brightness, the colours still seem a bit more vibrant on vga. any comments?

It could be because of the VGA gain settings in the service menu. Some monitors store different brightness/contrast/color settings for each port as well, so make sure they both have the same settings.
 

eeric

Member
Sep 12, 2006
39
0
0
Originally posted by: xtknight
Originally posted by: eeric
hey xtknight i have a question...

on my dell 2007wfp (still amazed), i noticed that between VGA and DVI inputs, VGA actually looks better with default settings. when doing a direct comparison, (its very slight but noticeable) the dvi seems brighter and a bit washed out... but this is with defaults (and the vga did the auto adjust)... but even after doing some minor tweaking with brightness, the colours still seem a bit more vibrant on vga. any comments?

It could be because of the VGA gain settings in the service menu. Some monitors store different brightness/contrast/color settings for each port as well, so make sure they both have the same settings.

ahhh ic, thanks
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
hey xtknight, on your new website you say about the new BenQ 24" LCD:

"If you want my guess, it also has less input lag than the Dell 2407WFP"

Why? That seems like a silly guess considering PVA/MVA panels have input lag that S-IPS do not, so why should the BenQ differ from the 2407 when they're both using the inferior MVA/PVA type panels?

I'd love to hear that such a panel could be made to not exhibit input lag, but I'll see it when I believe it. The better "guess" would be that it still exhibits the lag until actual proof dictates otherwise. Wishful thinking on your part until then.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: yacoub
hey xtknight, on your new website you say about the new BenQ 24" LCD:

"If you want my guess, it also has less input lag than the Dell 2407WFP"

Why? That seems like a silly guess considering PVA/MVA panels have input lag that S-IPS do not, so why should the BenQ differ from the 2407 when they're both using the inferior MVA/PVA type panels?

That's why it's a "guess". On average, LCDs implementing AUO P-MVAs are faster than ones implementing Samsung S-PVAs. An AUO P-MVA is not the same type of display as a Samsung S-PVA. The S-PVA has crystals with twice as many domains, which, AFAIK, means that there is more work to do to distribute a color amongst those eight domains. S-IPS and TN panels only have one domain (IPS possibly two sometimes). That may be why they have a speed advantage. I can only speculate because, like everyone else, I don't know. In the grand scheme of things, response time is part of the factor that determines how quickly you see an image, and I have little doubt that the BenQ is faster there. AUO P-MVAs are almost always faster than Samsung S-PVAs.

I'd love to hear that such a panel could be made to not exhibit input lag, but I'll see it when I believe it. The better "guess" would be that it still exhibits the lag until actual proof dictates otherwise. Wishful thinking on your part until then.

I didn't say it wouldn't exhibit it. That's probably impossible given the overdrive chips. My hope is that BenQ has recognized a problem and maybe reduced the RTC buffer to compensate, reducing lag by roughly 15 ms. Or, that they have removed some other bottleneck. I think it's a good thing to be optimistic about new products until there is proof otherwise. Then, it will be expanded upon. It isn't like I intend people to buy the FP241W because my estimation said it had less input lag. It is, however, superior to the Dell in almost very way, and from what I've seen there have been no outbursts over any input lag on it. Of course, if you can find somebody who tested the FP241W for input lag, I would love to see it.

Actually, by searching on HardForum, you can see someone already has: http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030076746&postcount=636

And, according to their post, it has no lag. But, another person has measured some lag, albeit less than the Dell.

http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1030063738&postcount=576

(No, I'm not claiming that this is proof. This is just pushing me farther in the direction that the BenQ may have less input lag.)
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Well yacoub, you were right, I shouldn't be so optimistic.

Here are the sad, depressing measurements (not for the weak-hearted):
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&ma2=48&mo2=141&p2=1562&ph=1

(See 'Retard d'affichage compare a un CRT' [image delay compared to CRT])

The only good news is that the BenQ FP241WZ isn't much worse than the Dell and has a lower maximum input lag.

Maybe the DSP technology just isn't there yet. There is no other reason why a 24" monitor would be so much slower than a 20" one. (see NEC 20WMGX2 measurements) It has the same refresh rate, and it still should only have to cache 2 frames at max. It must just be the speed of the processor used to calculate all the pixel transitions. It's pretty hard to believe why it's so damn slow. I'm sure by this day and age there are DSPs that can encode 1920x1200 video in real time. And this should be less intensive.
 

talgtapp

Junior Member
Sep 21, 2006
16
0
0
Xtknight, thanx for the reply!

I have been trying to get some more info about the Eizo Flexscan s2000, but I couldn't find a single review. It is roumered to have AUO's new A-MVA panel (3 different sources), have you seen any reviews of this panel? Suposedly it can produce 92% NTSC coulours with someting called HiColor Technology, but it seems AUO will only include HiCT with larger panels (not 20") and tv panels. :-( I've sent an email to Eizo but no replay yet.
 

talgtapp

Junior Member
Sep 21, 2006
16
0
0
Is it easy to get delta E below 1 with manual adjustments, using software or a instructions on the web. With either NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 or Samsung SyncMaster 215TW?
(I have a pretty good eye after years of art school and experience as a graphic designer)

What software and/or web guide would you recomende?
 

Pugnate

Senior member
Jun 25, 2006
690
0
0
I think the FAQ on the first page isn't bad, but there are so many monitors not mentioned. Also the review links have very little to go on. I remember when the FAQ recommended the VX2025WM and the VX922. What has changed? And if they have fallen out of favor, then maybe the FAQ should be updated on why.

I am in Pakistan because of work and will be here for another couple of years and need a decent monitor primarily for gaming, though will watch the occasional movie. Help a guy out?

Here is all that is available here:

http://www.galaxy.com.pk/online-store/lcd.htm

http://www.shophive.com/shophive/index....c=show_category_details.php&cat_id=261

If someone could take the time to recommend something, I'd really really appreciate it.

edit:

To get an idea of price, the exchange rate is 60 for US and 53 for CDN, to give you an idea. The VX2025WM is $500 here, which is insane.

I'd have someone bring me a monitor but it is too heavy and shipping is $150.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: Pugnate
I think the FAQ on the first page isn't bad, but there are so many monitors not mentioned. Also the review links have very little to go on. I remember when the FAQ recommended the VX2025WM and the VX922. What has changed? And if they have fallen out of favor, then maybe the FAQ should be updated on why.

Monitors come and go from the recommendations list every time I learn new information, but by and large something recommended last year is not bad, it is just not as good as what's out now. The VX2025WM had the DVI issues, and the VX922 isn't as good as the Samsung 940BF or BenQ FP93GX, which is cheaper, at least in the US. Generally I just do it on a per-case basis (someone asks and if they are outside the US where the BenQ or 940BF are not available we see what's best for them). I will put that the VX2025WM has DVI issues in the 'specific problematic LCDs' section.

I am in Pakistan because of work and will be here for another couple of years and need a decent monitor primarily for gaming, though will watch the occasional movie. Help a guy out?

Here is all that is available here:

http://www.galaxy.com.pk/online-store/lcd.htm

http://www.shophive.com/shophive/index....c=show_category_details.php&cat_id=261

If someone could take the time to recommend something, I'd really really appreciate it.

edit:

To get an idea of price, the exchange rate is 60 for US and 53 for CDN, to give you an idea. The VX2025WM is $500 here, which is insane.

I'd have someone bring me a monitor but it is too heavy and shipping is $150.

Out of those, the ViewSonic VX922 is the only one I'd feel comfortable recommending. It's great for gaming.
 

Pugnate

Senior member
Jun 25, 2006
690
0
0
I appreciate the reply. Also I didn't mean to sound critical, I should mention that I check your FAQs often as they seem to be the only definitive source of LCD monitors info. on the web. Plus you are doing all this for free, which is pretty awesome. I think the web needs a definitive LCD website though. Yours is a good start, but not one website is comprehensive enough, which is odd because we have websites covering all aspects of the computer hardware market. Tom's HW and Anandtech seemed to have been trying for a while, but both have seemingly given up?

I was thinking about the VX922 as well, though I read it has some issues with displaying darkness? But I am poor for choices, so it looks like the VX922 it will be. Also why is it that some monitors are good for gaming, but not so good for movies? Is it because different panels have various qualities?

One point is that there seem to be a lot of Acer, LG and Philips monitors on sale here. Like a tremendous amount, yet I never saw one in Canada. How come? Philips 190X6FB is insanely popular here, yet I never heard of it in North America.

Also if anyone has any info on the following, I'd appreciate it:

Acer AL 1916WS
Acer AL-1917AS
ViewSonic VA1912W
Samsung 920N (Analog only though)
Samsung 940BW (Has HDCP support apparently)
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: Pugnate
I appreciate the reply. Also I didn't mean to sound critical, I should mention that I check your FAQs often as they seem to be the only definitive source of LCD monitors info. on the web. Plus you are doing all this for free, which is pretty awesome. I think the web needs a definitive LCD website though. Yours is a good start, but not one website is comprehensive enough, which is odd because we have websites covering all aspects of the computer hardware market. Tom's HW and Anandtech seemed to have been trying for a while, but both have seemingly given up?

LCDs just don't have a cult following like CPUs/GPUs do. People rarely go scouring Chinese sites for info. It does happen sometimes. I hope that more people will be interested in LCDs so we'll have a constant stream of new info. I can't do it alone though. I know I don't update my site too often either.

I would say BeHardware is the main LCD review/info source nowadays. They seem to have the most frequent updates on LCD info. lcd.zol.com.cn is always on top of things too, but you have to read garbled translated Chinese to find out anything.

There are LCD sites in Denmark, Poland, China, and in the most unsuspecting places, that update more often than the ones in the US. There does not seem to be a website totally dedicated to testing LCDs in NA though. I don't test LCDs, I just try and collate all the info into something meaningful.

I was thinking about the VX922 as well, though I read it has some issues with displaying darkness? But I am poor for choices, so it looks like the VX922 it will be. Also why is it that some monitors are good for gaming, but not so good for movies? Is it because different panels have various qualities?

No TNs are great at displaying dark images, but like you say, it's really the only choice for you.

One point is that there seem to be a lot of Acer, LG and Philips monitors on sale here. Like a tremendous amount, yet I never saw one in Canada. How come? Philips 190X6FB is insanely popular here, yet I never heard of it in North America.

The Philips just hasn't gotten the exposure in NA because there are superior LCDs available here I guess.

Also if anyone has any info on the following, I'd appreciate it:

Acer AL 1916WS
Acer AL-1917AS
ViewSonic VA1912W
Samsung 920N (Analog only though)
Samsung 940BW (Has HDCP support apparently)

The Samsungs probably aren't too bad. If the 931BW is available, that's better than the 940BW (more vibrant color).
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: talgtapp
Xtknight, thanx for the reply!

I have been trying to get some more info about the Eizo Flexscan s2000, but I couldn't find a single review. It is roumered to have AUO's new A-MVA panel (3 different sources), have you seen any reviews of this panel? Suposedly it can produce 92% NTSC coulours with someting called HiColor Technology, but it seems AUO will only include HiCT with larger panels (not 20") and tv panels. :-( I've sent an email to Eizo but no replay yet.

Hmm...no, I haven't heard much about it. I do know about AUO's A-MVA and HiColor though.

http://www.eizo.be/pool/spec/uk_S2000.pdf

The PDF lists "LCD-Panel" as A-MVA with Overdrive. Interesting...

I don't think color reproduction will be a problem, but it's the response time we want to know about.

Originally posted by: talgtapp
Is it easy to get delta E below 1 with manual adjustments, using software or a instructions on the web. With either NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 or Samsung SyncMaster 215TW?
(I have a pretty good eye after years of art school and experience as a graphic designer)

What software and/or web guide would you recomende?

Unfortunately not. It took me even a while to do that with my hardware calibrator. I finally got it though: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/images/DISPLAY1_6_dE94.png

If you think your colors are washed out or inaccurate, you should definitely invest in a calibrator and preferably the basICColor software.
 

DustyNL

Junior Member
Oct 29, 2006
15
0
0
Well I tested my Samsung 215TW for 2 days, and to be honest the input lag is really disappointing. When I entered windows for the first time and started moving the mouse, I noticed the lag within 2 seconds. So I started playing some games, well it was real bad.
Even in slow games like realtime strategy or flight simulator, it is anoying because you overshoot the intended button, or intended mouse location every time because of the lag.

Colors/contrast/blacklevel etc. are very good, but I think I'm willing to sacrifice some image quality for better respons.
I will try it for a few more days, but I am thinking of returning the monitor.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: DustyNL
Well I tested my Samsung 215TW for 2 days, and to be honest the input lag is really disappointing. When I entered windows for the first time and started moving the mouse, I noticed the lag within 2 seconds. So I started playing some games, well it was real bad.
Even in slow games like realtime strategy or flight simulator, it is anoying because you overshoot the intended button, or intended mouse location every time because of the lag.

Colors/contrast/blacklevel etc. are very good, but I think I'm willing to sacrifice some image quality for better respons.
I will try it for a few more days, but I am thinking of returning the monitor.

Well, that sucks, as the 215TW is great *if* the input lag doesn't bother you. I will probably take it out of the gaming section altogether. I had thought that most people weren't bothered by it but that's clearly not the case. Sorry for your bad experience.

That sort of ruins it for desktop usage too then. I wonder if some units are worse than others? It seems like anyone would notice this, and I see it no where mentioned in professional reviews. Now, that is scary.

As for a replacement LCD, there's the NEC 20WMGX2 (LCD20WGX2) which I highly recommend, and the Dell 2007WFP (where you may have to sacrifice color quality). The NEC arguably has a better quality picture than the Samsung.

I have e-mailed X-Bit Labs asking of their experience with any sort of lag on the 215TW.
 

Yikes2000

Junior Member
Nov 20, 2006
20
0
0
The input lag is most apparent when the LCD is right next to a CRT. I have a dual monitor setup - a Nanao T2-20 CRT and a Samsung 213T. If I consciously look for the input lag, then I can feel it on the 213T. For this, I simply move the mouse cursor left to right quickly on either monitor. On the 213T there is a slight delay in cursor movement after the mouse's physical movement. It's small, but noticible to a gamer who is looking for it. Otherwise I don't notice it at all during normal computer use (browsing and programming). I also have a Samsung 940BF on another computer. I almost don't notice the input lag there even when I look for it.

xtknight - Thanks for this great thread. I am waiting for my 20" CRT to die before replacing it with a 19" LCD. The lack of 8-bit color in 19" LCD today is most disappointing. I am hoping that will change next year, before my 20" CRT dies.
 

cryptonomicon

Senior member
Oct 20, 2004
467
0
0
One thing i'd love to know:

Is the the supposed image/color quality loss from using a 6-bit TN panel like the benq93x worth the latency advantage for a semi-pro gamer, compared to a nice new (slightly slower) S-IPS panel like the NEC~mxw20gx with better color quality? Or... is that too much of a "per-person" question :S

 
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