LCD Buyer's Guide

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Matt2
I got my S-IPS 2007wfp from Dell about six months ago first try. Sorry to hear about getting PVAs.

Besides viewing angle, any other significant drawbacks from using PVA?

You get lower color saturation, and lots of color shift (you look just a tad off the 0 degree mark and many more picture details are revealed on the screen). Also, poorer uniformity is common with the PVAs. It is thought that the PVA is even 6-bit! Response time is worse too. I suggest that any company looking for the best way to screw people over take some hints from Dell.

Originally posted by: Matt2
xtknight: I know LG/Phillips lists the LM201W01 S-IPS panel at 8ms response time grey to grey. Has this response time been measured and confirmed?

Yes. Here is the measurement method, and here are the measurements for the LM201W01 panel.

If you want measurements of the end product (LCD, after putting in the DSP containing the overdrive functions), those will vary. The NEC 20WMGX2, which uses this panel, has been measured by X-Bit Labs as under <10 ms for all color transitions. The link for that is in the 20WMGX2's recommendation entry under the OP. I am going to take a stab in the dark and say the S-IPS 2007WFP comes in at 13-19 ms for all transitions. The PVA one is undoubtedly slower due to the panel type.

I feel really bad about Dell making us play the panel lottery game. I've recommended this LCD to a lot people since I got it, I hope everyone has gotten the S-IPS version.

Well, I have too until recently, and Dell is making us look bad. I don't buy their "supply and demand" theory. Nobody else has had trouble keeping the panels the same in all of their LCDs. Dell is the only manufacturer in history to swap panels like this. I just think that they are getting the cheapest they can find, but I also find it hard to believe that the price on the PVA and S-IPS panels varies weekly. It may vary by a couple dollars, but if the panels are that close in cost, why don't they just use the better one? Customer satisfaction down the toilet...

EDIT: After a little bit of research, I found that the newer revision 2007wfps wont tell you the panel model in the service menu, but Dell gives a different number to indicate the panel being used. "RT803" should be the code for LG/Phillips S-IPS and "PM330" is the code for S-PVA panels.

From what I've read, PVA panels are rampant in the A03 revisions, but a quick google search turned up a couple of different people getting Rev. A03 S-IPS panels first try. So, if you dont mind sending it back once or twice, the 2007wfp may still be worth a look.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: acrabb
xtknight provided a link (up about 8 posts) of how to do this - thanks again to xtknight for sharing this information. The link also has several pages, but everything that you need to know is on the first page. Unfortunately, I received a PM330 - Dell code for "no winner this time - please play again".

Let us know how the PVA panel really is. Remember, at least Dell gives you the freedom to get a refund within 21 days. I'd next recommend the VX2025WM or Samsung 205BW (in that order) if you aren't satisfied with the PVA in the Dell. I'm sure you will be happier with the ViewSonic P-MVA and fairly certain you will with the Samsung TN as well.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: acrabb

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: acrabb
Thank you so much - no wonder I could not find this info after several hours of seaching (I never would have "stumbled" on that combo). Now, the sad news - I have a V1B18/PM330, which based on the first post in the link you provided, has "strong evidence" that it is a S-PVA. I purchased this so that I would not have to rely on my laptop monitor for photo editing - I do sell photos; so, I do calibrate (color is the key for me - I really dont care too much about response times). I had read somewhere that it appeared S-IPS panels were in models shipping from Nashville, TN - well, that's where mine shipped from too. Now, back to the drawing boards - I guess a highly acclaimed 20" S-IPS for ~$300 was just too good to be true.

I would say the only companies that actually care about quality anymore are NEC, Mitsubishi, Sony, and Samsung. Samsung doesn't use S-IPS panels, and Sony's LCD division is going downhill. They also have limited availability in the US. So, in effect, I can say that if a cheaper 20" S-IPS does not come from one of those companies, it will not come from anywhere. That is, unless Dell stops pulling this lottery on us. They used to be the only reasonably-priced S-IPS LCD source.

Does the Philips Brilliance 200W6CB Monitor contain the same S-IPS as the Dell (for the lucky ones)? I am guessing that it might (but since it doesnt exactly match something I saw on the dk site, I would not go out on a limb). If so, what is your opinon on this monitor (fwiw - Wolf Camera has it for ~$430 - http://www.wolfcamera.com/product/EP5168201.htm? Of course, that's not such a good deal if it's not a good monitor I sure wish that I had won the lottery!

I am quite sure that the 200W6CB does use the S-IPS! The contrast (typical) matches the LM201W01 panel. Thanks for the good find, or for me, the good trip down memory lane. Philips actually uses a lot of high quality panels and are definitely worth a look for photo editing. I'll research them more in-depth and hopefully find a model that's worth recommending. I know I'm going to have to dig deep. The information doesn't come out and hit you in the face when you're looking at photo editing LCDs. It appears as $540 on my screen though, which isn't much cheaper than the 20WMGX2.

Upon further investigation, availability is fairly limited for that LCD. Hopefully it's just a new model.

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: acrabb

Originally posted by: Matt2
I'm not sure if xtknight mentioned it anywhere (no way am I reading through 60+ pages) but if you want to know what kind of panel your Dell 2007wfp has, check the service menu.
...

EDIT: After a little bit of research, I found that the newer revision 2007wfps wont tell you the panel model in the service menu, but Dell gives a different number to indicate the panel being used. "RT803" should be the code for LG/Phillips S-IPS and "PM330" is the code for S-PVA panels.

xtknight provided a link (up about 8 posts) of how to do this - thanks again to xtknight for sharing this information. The link also has several pages, but everything that you need to know is on the first page. Unfortunately, I received a PM330 - Dell code for "no winner this time - please play again".

Doh!

I just read about half the posts on the last page of the thread and saw a bunch of posts regarding the 2007wfp. I replied before I read the entire page!

 

[acrabb]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Let us know how the PVA panel really is.

Well, I am not an exert in this field. I dont know if it provides any useful info or not, but I will say that average dE when calibrating (with Monaco OPTIX xr Pro) was 2.53. I might be able to tweak a little better - I just dont know a lot about it. The monitor looks ok, but I need it to match the prints that I sell - from what I have I heard it may not be great at that.

Just to look at it - it looks ok. The viewing angles are not too bad - I am concerned that it appears a little dark looking straight at it (which is what I do). So, this one is probably going back.

 

[acrabb]

Originally posted by: xtknight
... It appears as $540 on my screen though, which isn't much cheaper than the 20WMGX2.

Upon further investigation, availability is fairly limited for that LCD. Hopefully it's just a new model.

Holy Cow!!! Mine too! I really dont think I dreamed up the other price. This monitor situation is really getting frustrating. First of all, I purchased a 21" Gateway (purchased Gateway computer system, but I returned before opening the box when a call to Gateway revealed that the AMD processor did not have the AM2 chip...). So, I decided to get a core2duo laptop (I know, I digress...). Anyway, Circuit City stopped carrying the 21" Gateway; so, I decided to get the 21" HP (I think it has the same panel). It was on sale for ~$369 - you guessed it, none of the stores around me have that one (and it is out of stock online). So, I decided what the heck, order the Dell. Then, I realize the panel issues... Then, I think I discover a "find" at Wolf Camera (of all places), and what do you know, the price has just gone up over $100. I have more should've, would've, could'ves than I care to discuss (or should I say disguest)

Now, I am guessing that I should have gone with a desktop after all - this laptop (and a $500+ monitor) is really getting expensive

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: acrabb

Originally posted by: xtknight
... It appears as $540 on my screen though, which isn't much cheaper than the 20WMGX2.

Upon further investigation, availability is fairly limited for that LCD. Hopefully it's just a new model.

Holy Cow!!! Mine too! I really dont think I dreamed up the other price. This monitor situation is really getting frustrating. First of all, I purchased a 21" Gateway (purchased Gateway computer system, but I returned before opening the box when a call to Gateway revealed that the AMD processor did not have the AM2 chip...). So, I decided to get a core2duo laptop (I know, I digress...). Anyway, Circuit City stopped carrying the 21" Gateway; so, I decided to get the 21" HP (I think it has the same panel). It was on sale for ~$369 - you guessed it, none of the stores around me have that one (and it is out of stock online). So, I decided what the heck, order the Dell. Then, I realize the panel issues... Then, I think I discover a "find" at Wolf Camera (of all places), and what do you know, the price has just gone up over $100. I have more should've, would've, could'ves than I care to discuss (or should I say disguest)

Now, I am guessing that I should have gone with a desktop after all - this laptop (and a $500+ monitor) is really getting expensive

I believe Staples carries the 21" Gateway (awesome monitor btw, although still uses S-PVA), I would check them out.

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: xtknight
[Yes. Here is the measurement method, and here are the measurements for the LM201W01 panel.

If you want measurements of the end product (LCD, after putting in the DSP containing the overdrive functions), those will vary. The NEC 20WMGX2, which uses this panel, has been measured by X-Bit Labs as under <10 ms for all color transitions. The link for that is in the 20WMGX2's recommendation entry under the OP. I am going to take a stab in the dark and say the S-IPS 2007WFP comes in at 13-19 ms for all transitions. The PVA one is undoubtedly slower due to the panel type.

Have you seen any reviews that actually test the response time of the 2007wfp?

I've googled a bunch of reviews, but all say that subjectively "there is no visible ghosting".

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: acrabb

Originally posted by: xtknight
... It appears as $540 on my screen though, which isn't much cheaper than the 20WMGX2.

Upon further investigation, availability is fairly limited for that LCD. Hopefully it's just a new model.

Holy Cow!!! Mine too! I really dont think I dreamed up the other price. This monitor situation is really getting frustrating. First of all, I purchased a 21" Gateway (purchased Gateway computer system, but I returned before opening the box when a call to Gateway revealed that the AMD processor did not have the AM2 chip...). So, I decided to get a core2duo laptop (I know, I digress...). Anyway, Circuit City stopped carrying the 21" Gateway; so, I decided to get the 21" HP (I think it has the same panel). It was on sale for ~$369 - you guessed it, none of the stores around me have that one (and it is out of stock online). So, I decided what the heck, order the Dell. Then, I realize the panel issues... Then, I think I discover a "find" at Wolf Camera (of all places), and what do you know, the price has just gone up over $100. I have more should've, would've, could'ves than I care to discuss (or should I say disguest)

Now, I am guessing that I should have gone with a desktop after all - this laptop (and a $500+ monitor) is really getting expensive

I say plop down the $100 extra (than what you were expecting) and save yourself all the frustration.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Matt2

Originally posted by: xtknight
[Yes. Here is the measurement method, and here are the measurements for the LM201W01 panel.

If you want measurements of the end product (LCD, after putting in the DSP containing the overdrive functions), those will vary. The NEC 20WMGX2, which uses this panel, has been measured by X-Bit Labs as under <10 ms for all color transitions. The link for that is in the 20WMGX2's recommendation entry under the OP. I am going to take a stab in the dark and say the S-IPS 2007WFP comes in at 13-19 ms for all transitions. The PVA one is undoubtedly slower due to the panel type.

Have you seen any reviews that actually test the response time of the 2007wfp?

I've googled a bunch of reviews, but all say that subjectively "there is no visible ghosting".

No, I have not seen any objective measurements of the 2007WFP.

 

[Hakoku]

Hi..

I'm currently in the market for a WS lcd monitor, it will be my first lcd monitor so I don't know much about them. This monitor will be used mainly for xbox 360 and normal pc use (watching anime and stuff like that). The xbox will be its main use though and with that said I have a budget of about 350 USD, not including shipping. I've been looking at the 22 inch monitors namely the spectre but I don't know much and I'm not sure if I'm making the right decision if i pick that monitor. Any help from you gurus would be very very helpful, I never thought it would be this hard to choose a monitor for use with my xbox 360 -_-

Thanks in advance

 

[Frankie]

Ok, I just ordered my new widescreen LCD. I got the NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2.

I do have a question about it. It looks to me, as I've downloaded the PDF Manual, that it has an HDTV tuner built in.

If that is correct, could I plug in an indoor HDTV antenna and receive over-the-air HDTV broadcasts or do I need to have Digital Cable or Satellite?

 

[Mystiqq]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Mystiqq
Correct, im not from the US.

Dell might be pretty good, but the problem is that this thing isnt sold locally for some reason. Only buying it directly from Dell seems to be the only option but as i checked their prices, i laughed and exited.

Ive checked, and checked again. There seems to be very few real options besides the HP. Pretty much only "contender" is the LG L2000C(-SF).

Another one of the other options ive seen people tangle with has been the NEC LCD2070NX, costs over 600? here so its a "nono", which by the way seems to be pretty close to the HP in performance wise and is less noisy...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/20inch_4.html

I just dont know anymore.

Well, the L2000C isn't bad at all. It is a 6-bit S-IPS, reportedly, but as a result its response time is good. There have been some reports of banding though. It's certainly better than any TN out there and I recommend you give it a try. There is also the VP2030b, also a 6-bit but good otherwise.

6-bit S-IPS? No way...

Anyways, if i would get buy L2000C and find out (the hard way) that its 6-bit when it clearly says its 8-bit on their site, i would probably shove it up in LG's ***. Not to mention the website specifically mentions " S-IPS Technology" in the specs.

http://us.lge.com/products/model/detail...ucts_commercial_20%20inch_L2000C.jhtml

I read somewhere that the banding doesnt exist in the newer L2000C's, only on the first/old ones had it. However, "image persistance" (spelling?) ive seen mentioned with this model.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Frankie
Ok, I just ordered my new widescreen LCD. I got the NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2.

I do have a question about it. It looks to me, as I've downloaded the PDF Manual, that it has an HDTV tuner built in.

If that is correct, could I plug in an indoor HDTV antenna and receive over-the-air HDTV broadcasts or do I need to have Digital Cable or Satellite?

It only has an analog tuner in it. You will need an external HDTV tuner to watch HDTV on the NEC 20WMGX2. I do sometimes, and it looks OK, but not great. I'm sure it's just my signal though, which is poor at best.

 

[Frankie]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Frankie
Ok, I just ordered my new widescreen LCD. I got the NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2.

I do have a question about it. It looks to me, as I've downloaded the PDF Manual, that it has an HDTV tuner built in.

If that is correct, could I plug in an indoor HDTV antenna and receive over-the-air HDTV broadcasts or do I need to have Digital Cable or Satellite?

It only has an analog tuner in it. You will need an external HDTV tuner to watch HDTV on the NEC 20WMGX2. I do sometimes, and it looks OK, but not great. I'm sure it's just my signal though, which is poor at best.

That's what I needed to know. No problems though, I'm not using it as a TV just thought I could possible use it that way.

One more question. I'm assuming it's HD Capable, meaning if I plug an XBox 360 up to it it would look just as good as if I were to plug the 360 up to an HD LCD TV?

 

[Hakoku]

Nooo Xtknight help me too!!! =)


Oh and frankie the answer to your question is yes. ^^

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Hakoku
Hi..

I'm currently in the market for a WS lcd monitor, it will be my first lcd monitor so I don't know much about them. This monitor will be used mainly for xbox 360 and normal pc use (watching anime and stuff like that). The xbox will be its main use though and with that said I have a budget of about 350 USD, not including shipping. I've been looking at the 22 inch monitors namely the spectre but I don't know much and I'm not sure if I'm making the right decision if i pick that monitor. Any help from you gurus would be very very helpful, I never thought it would be this hard to choose a monitor for use with my xbox 360 -_-

Thanks in advance

The Sceptre 22" LCD doesn't sound bad at all. The only thing that worries me is the annoying Sceptre light-up logo on the bezel and the fact that 22" panels have lots of backlight bleeding. That will however vary per unit, and most people aren't even bothered by it. So, I suggest you buy it locally so you have a better chance of returning it should the backlight bleeding or logo annoy you. I'm actually not sure whether the 22" has the light-up logo, but I know the 20" (or one of the Sceptres) does.

 

[Hakoku]

The 22 inch doesn't have the logo, I was worried about that too haha. That backlight thing has been scaring the hell out of me too, that is why I dunno wether or not I should just get a 20 inch. It's a really hard choice though because even the 20 inch could have backlight bleeding too. I guess I will wait a few more weeks and see how things play out, maybe by then the backlight bleeding wont be as much as a problem. I really would rather have a 22 inch screen ^_^

 

[SLM Crew Chief]

I love this thread! Anyway, just to update what I've been up to... I called Dell and picked a fight with customer service until I got them to take my 2007WFP back and went straight to newegg and ordered the NEC. This is my second Dell and I "won" the lotery the first time and ended up with a bad (flashing of all things) backlight. This one is a S-PVA. I've said it before and I'll say it again.... It's horrid. It's like looking thru a screen door all the time, the backlight bleeding is bad in all four corners and actually forms an "X" shaped pattern on the screen, the left side of the screen is noticably brighter than the right, I can see plenty of "movement" in the gray scale testing page but not the actual variations unless I view it a a significant angle. It's useless for viewing dark pictures because of that. Video looks very bad, all grainy. The more F.E.A.R I play on it, the more I notice something that I think is input lag. Currently, the Dell is $400.00 and the NEC is $560.00 after MIR at newegg.com. IMO, don't even waste your time for the little bit of money, just order the NEC.

 

[Hakoku]

Xtknight, do you think it would be better for me to get this

Syntax Olevia 323V 23" HD Ready LCD TV w/NTSC Tuner
1366 x 768 resolution, 1600:1 Dynamic Contrast ratio, 16:9 aspect ratio
178 degree ultra-wide viewing angle, PC input-HDMI, VGA, 10W speakers


Over one of the 22 inch monitors? the price is basicly the exact same as the lcd monitors but I can't tell which would be the better buy and which would be better for my xbox 360.

 

[Frankie]

Originally posted by: SLM Crew Chief
I love this thread! Anyway, just to update what I've been up to... I called Dell and picked a fight with customer service until I got them to take my 2007WFP back and went straight to newegg and ordered the NEC. This is my second Dell and I "won" the lotery the first time and ended up with a bad (flashing of all things) backlight. This one is a S-PVA. I've said it before and I'll say it again.... It's horrid. It's like looking thru a screen door all the time, the backlight bleeding is bad in all four corners and actually forms an "X" shaped pattern on the screen, the left side of the screen is noticably brighter than the right, I can see plenty of "movement" in the gray scale testing page but not the actual variations unless I view it a a significant angle. It's useless for viewing dark pictures because of that. Video looks very bad, all grainy. The more F.E.A.R I play on it, the more I notice something that I think is input lag. Currently, the Dell is $400.00 and the NEC is $560.00 after MIR at newegg.com. IMO, don't even waste your time for the little bit of money, just order the NEC.

The one reason I started looking at the NEX was because of the Rebate. I also was planning on getting a TV tuner for my computer. With the NEC got both.

 

[Butterbean]

SLM Crew Chief:

I have all the same problems . It's like you been looking at my monitor. I also have banding with the multimedia/gaming mode but it seems everyone does and it gets dismissed by people who know more about multimedia and gaming mode than I do.

Just be careful with Dell and keep after them on the return. Don't be too sure things are resolved with Dell - keep after them. I am STILL trying to get them to follow through on returns. Someone at Dell OK'ed my return and told me they will send shipping labels to print (I have 2 monitors to return because they never included the first return label they said they would send with the replacement monitor and then I never got it).

When I called again for the labels with all the "case numbers" etc etc the new rep still wanted to start over as to why I am returning monitor (or mon-ee-tor as they call it). Again they start to tell me I need a technical review. Again they wave it when I tell them they switched panels after I bought monitor. Again they tell me I will get emails with labels for UPS. It's like "Groundhog Day" lol.

They finally sent me a label for one monitor and not the other. So after a week of calls and around 15 reps I am still trying to get one monitor back to Dell. Of course after all this I am suppossed to get a credit and I am doubtful that that will be a problem free transaction.

I almost got billed for a second monitor because they didn't send me a label so I could make return in 5 days. Then I made a call and a rep "fixed" problem - but then another person I called the next day still had me as due to be billed soon - even as she was trying to help me get a shipping label!

People need to be very aware before to get into this lottery fiasco. Sure they have generous return policy, sure they say "OK" on the phone - but then nothing often happens and its back to square one. This all reminds me of the time I tried to end my AOL account and they had tricks to keep you stuck. The NY attotrney General finally fined them (As if they cared!)

 

[Hakoku]

lol the AOL horror stories, damn that brings back memories.

 

[Pyrii]

Hiyas, found this place after Viewsonic told me that they can't immediately replace my vp930 (v3) and offered an vp2030b instead. Not much seems to be out there, the only statistical differences are that the vp2030b has a better pixel pitch, but the vp930 has a better contrast ratio.

Although that said, my vp930 has this weird coating on it which if you look closely, gives this strange colour speckling effect whcih is very noticable on whites.

I was gonna take them up on the offer after what I read here, but thier phone lines are now closed so I thought as I have time, why not ask your opinions. O' wise ones XD Should I take the vp2030b?

I do some gaming, but mostly images (digital drawing, web graphics) and 3D Modelling.

PS. I've also been hunting for a USB hub as I don't want to have to keep my iiyama HM903DT turned on all the time to use my USB devices. vp2030b could be an answer to that prayer too.

 

[Kung Foo]

Still looking for a good 20.1" widescreen LCD..

Now I stumbled on an interesting Philips 200WP7ES 20.1" offer.
Any info about this LCD?
At least according to TFT Central and flatpanels.dk it has LG.Philips 8 ms (g2g) S-IPS LM201W01 panel.
Sounds good, right?