LCD Buyer's Guide

[GoodRevrnd]

Maybe I should buy all the 2025's in my area just to resell. =p

 

[xboxist]

xtknight --

What monitor would you consider the "best" in the 20" lineup, outside of the NEC that you own? Also please consider the following criteria:

-- I'm not taking a chance in the Dell lottery
-- I can't find the VX2025WM anywhere
-- Usage emphasis would be equally shared on gaming and movie watching

What 8-bit panels exist beyond this?

 

[Kung Foo]

About the Philips 200WP7ES 20.1" again.
Philips customer support confirmed for me that it has an S-IPS panel.
They did not have the information about the panel type itself (and said that it is concidered confidential information anyway, and might change over time).

Seems that my old 17" VieWSonic is really taking its last breath, so I decided to take the risk and order this "sounds good in paper" LCD. Perhaps I'll write a note about it also here when I get it shipped.
Kinda frightening just buying blindly like this, since there seems to be a lot of crappy LCD's on sale nowadays. But I hope its enough that its S-IPS, and at least the specs say that it cant be that old panel either (8ms S-IPS panels are not that common yet).

 

[Pyrii]

Originally posted by: Kung Foo

About the Philips 200WP7ES 20.1" again.
Philips customer support confirmed for me that it has an S-IPS panel.
They did not have the information about the panel type itself (and said that it is concidered confidential information anyway, and might change over time).

Seems that my old 17" VieWSonic is really taking its last breath, so I decided to take the risk and order this "sounds good in paper" LCD. Perhaps I'll write a note about it also here when I get it shipped.
Kinda frightening just buying blindly like this, since there seems to be a lot of crappy LCD's on sale nowadays. But I hope its enough that its S-IPS, and at least the specs say that it cant be that old panel either (8ms S-IPS panels are not that common yet).

"Philips 200WP7ES has a inch 8 ms (g2g) S-IPS (LG.Philips LM201W01) eller et 8 ms (g2g) P-MVA panel."

Which, according to philips brochure:

Model: LM201W01
Resolution: 1,680 x 1,050 WSXGA+
Aspect Ratio: 16 : 10
Number of Colours: 16.7 M (8 bit)
Brightness (nit): 300
Colour Saturation: 72
Max Contrast Ratio: 800 : 1
Viewing Angle: 178/178?
Response Time(ms): 8 (GTG*)
Interface: LVDS
Outline Dimension: 459.4 x 296.4
Thickness: 22.8
MP Schedule: MP

And yes I did type that out by hand, from http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeContain/jsp/eng/prd/prd200_j_e.jsp and clicking digital catalogue.

 

[Bonesdad]

Originally posted by: xboxist
xtknight --

What monitor would you consider the "best" in the 20" lineup, outside of the NEC that you own? Also please consider the following criteria:

-- I'm not taking a chance in the Dell lottery
-- I can't find the VX2025WM anywhere
-- Usage emphasis would be equally shared on gaming and movie watching

What 8-bit panels exist beyond this?

I find myself in the exact same position as you. I won't play the lottery, my 2025 fell through, and my uses are similar (throw in some photo editing). I'd like an 8 bit panel too, though the notes on the LG204 are good and I like the sound of the Samsung 215TW, except for the possibility of input lag and the somewhat higher price. I find myself trying to justify an outlay of $550 for the NEC, but with my income and other, more important responsibilities, I can't see spending $200-300 more than I originally budgeted. It seems like all I am left with are a lot of 6 bit TN panels and a couple of weak S-PVAs. I need a sugar momma...

 

[xtknight]

You guys are killin' me!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd
Maybe I should buy all the 2025's in my area just to resell. =p

That's a lousier way of making money than winning the lottery. Now, if you'd buy all of them and set up a dual/tri/tetra/../septa/etc-monitor setup, then I'd say it's a smart purchase.

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd
I'm not sure I understand that test shows it's lag independent of the pixel response though. At least in a rapidly changing scene it seems the delay of a pixel having to change colors alone would leave the scene always a few ms behind.

The input lag is usually measured at around 50 ms., and response time is generally under 20 ms for most panels (about 5 ms for the black-red-black-red stop watch timers they're using).

"Where does this delay come from? It?s hard to tell for now and we will have to investigate a little more."

Do we at least have an idea of whether it is inherent to panels or more to do with some other back-end circuitry?

We think it comes from buffering. An overdrive (response time accelerator) chip has to collect frames in order to calculate its overdrive signals. There is no reason it would be the crystals themselves. It is something in the driving electronics.

For instance, I heard "pro gamers" bitch about the lag first hand on that Samsung 931c that's the "offical WCG monitor." And this is the winning team that was complaining.

You adapt to most of these things anyway. I doubt that the input lag on the 931C was above 10 ms (not including response time which is very low). There will always be the picky people. That's the way I see it. And that's why I have the 'gaming only' category. I haven't seen the 931C reviewed anywhere so I can't jump to any conclusions though. On the other hand, I'm not a competitive gamer, so it's very hard to put myself in their shoes. It seems very silly to me to sacrifice all that color quality. If I were playing games for fun, I'd take color quality any day. Not that you asked my opinion on that.

BTW, do you think it's worth foregoing a boxed Viewsonic VX2025WM for $200 to get the NEC for $650? It's such a massive price difference, but the glossy coat... and the multimedia inputs w/ PIP would be awesome. I also wonder about the response time difference since the Viewsonic can hit twice as high. I've been on a high quality CRT for 5 years now and it's still goin' strong. So I even wonder about waiting for something significantly better. (Pipe dream...)

I would grab the NEC now. It's available for $550 or so at Newegg. The monitor should be a longer term investment than a CPU platform, at least for gamers.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

For those wanting a VX2025, Officemax has them on clearance for an additional 20% off today and tomorrow, coming out to $228.

I decided to grab one of these and will spend the weekend deciding if I like it or not. If I don't, I'll probably pick up an NEC shortly after Christmas, if I find it satisfactory it'll be used as a secondary monitor in a year or two when more sophisticated LCDs come out.

 

[xtknight]

Sadly, the Philips 20" widescreen S-IPS is not available in the US. The model number is: 200WP7ES

The Samsung 215TW and HP f2105 have input lag, the VX2025WM is discontinued, and the 2007WFP is no longer an option. The 20WMGX2 is still standing, but at a premium price.

The Acer AL2032wa uses an S-IPS or P-MVA panel, and its MVA panel got a pretty good review on X-Bit Labs. This will be a new contender in the 20"/multimedia arena. I will note that it needs gamma reduction to look better.

Well, it turns out that the AL2032wa isn't available in the US anymore either. Well folks, the NEC 20WMGX2 is the only 20" widescreen, fast panel under $600 that uses a S-IPS (or even S-PVA, P-MVA for that matter). The manufacturers decided that people buy the TNs and that it is not worth it putting in P-MVAs or S-PVAs. I expect that trend to continue. A 27" TN panel is coming soon. Fortunately, the newer TN panels have great dithering/FRC algorithms. Backlight bleeding is still a huge problem, though.

 

[Bonesdad]

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd
For those wanting a VX2025, Officemax has them on clearance for an additional 20% off today and tomorrow, coming out to $228.

I decided to grab one of these and will spend the weekend deciding if I like it or not. If I don't, I'll probably pick up an NEC shortly after Christmas, if I find it satisfactory it'll be used as a secondary monitor in a year or two when more sophisticated LCDs come out.

Big YMMV on this...my local Officemax stores have been out of these for a couple of weeks.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: xboxist
xtknight --

What monitor would you consider the "best" in the 20" lineup, outside of the NEC that you own? Also please consider the following criteria:

-- I'm not taking a chance in the Dell lottery
-- I can't find the VX2025WM anywhere
-- Usage emphasis would be equally shared on gaming and movie watching

What 8-bit panels exist beyond this?

The HP LP2065 is the only reasonably fast 8-bit one in the US, other than the NEC 20WMGX2.

 

[xboxist]

What's the word on the vx2035?

 

[xboxist]

Another question (ugh... I've asked so many, but I super appreciate your time xtknight, and others):

Regarding the 20WMGX2. Sometimes I see pictures of it with the speaker bar. Sometime it's not there. Is that from people taking it off, or is there a speakerless version that one can buy?

 

[Kung Foo]

Originally posted by: Pyrii

"Philips 200WP7ES has a inch 8 ms (g2g) S-IPS (LG.Philips LM201W01) eller et 8 ms (g2g) P-MVA panel."

Which, according to philips brochure:

Model: LM201W01
Resolution: 1,680 x 1,050 WSXGA+
Aspect Ratio: 16 : 10
Number of Colours: 16.7 M (8 bit)
Brightness (nit): 300
Colour Saturation: 72
Max Contrast Ratio: 800 : 1
Viewing Angle: 178/178?
Response Time(ms): 8 (GTG*)
Interface: LVDS
Outline Dimension: 459.4 x 296.4
Thickness: 22.8
MP Schedule: MP

And yes I did type that out by hand, from http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeContain/jsp/eng/prd/prd200_j_e.jsp and clicking digital catalogue.

If you'd have read what I wrote earlier, you'd seen that that's exactly the reasoning what I based the purchase on. But I don't really trust the panel sites, especially when the Philips customer support says that the panel can be changed over time.
So, if the panel is S-IPS, and the specs are as good as in paper, it should be great. But we'll see..

 

[Kung Foo]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Sadly, the Philips 20" widescreen S-IPS is not available in the US. The model number is: 200WP7ES

Well, it turns out that the AL2032wa isn't available in the US anymore either. Well folks, the NEC 20WMGX2 is the only 20" widescreen, fast panel under $600 that uses a S-IPS (or even S-PVA, P-MVA for that matter). The manufacturers decided that people buy the TNs and that it is not worth it putting in P-MVAs or S-PVAs. I expect that trend to continue. A 27" TN panel is coming soon. Fortunately, the newer TN panels have great dithering/FRC algorithms. Backlight bleeding is still a huge problem, though.

You're right. Sadly, it seems that Philips 200WP7ES is not available in US.
According to the Philips US site, there seems to be no other good Philips 20.1" WS LCD's out there either.
The only 20.1" WS I saw on the site is 200WB7EB, and with its viewing angles (160 / 145 degrees), it cant be a premium panel.

Its quite sad that the TN panels dominate on the markets. But hey, if the price doubles (300 to 600 ? or $) for TN to S-IPS panel change, I cant really blame the monitor producers.

The Philips 200WP7ES price range in EU area is something like 380-550?, so I guess this would be a good monitor also for US markets (that is, if it really turns out as a quality product ).

 

[GoodRevrnd]

So, I don't know if this Viewsonic panel just isn't good for me, I have something configured wrong, or I'm being too picky. It doesn't seem like ghosting, I was under the impression that was a more smooth smearing. The effect is most noticeable against edges, such as a door frame in the game. Rapid movement shows different parts of the door frame completely misaligned, in PERFECTLY proportioned inch and a half blocks. You can witness the same effect on the desktop with a black background and dragging the selection box back and forth rapidly.

I have to add the screen door effect on this monitor is really bad. I don't notice it much in most gaming situations, but it drives me nuts in basically all desktop work. They made a really bad choice with their anti-glare coating.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: xboxist
What's the word on the vx2035?

I don't know. There haven't been any reviews of it.

I really hope someone will do a comprehensive comparison of the 2025 vs. the 2035. I want to see how much is truly sacrificed going from P-MVA to TN but keeping the driving electronics more or less the same.

Originally posted by: xboxist
Another question (ugh... I've asked so many, but I super appreciate your time xtknight, and others):

Regarding the 20WMGX2. Sometimes I see pictures of it with the speaker bar. Sometime it's not there. Is that from people taking it off, or is there a speakerless version that one can buy?

There are screws that allow you to take it off. It is on by default, and there is no speakerless version in the US. There is the LCD20WGX2 sold in other countries but it lacks many of the 20WMGX2's features like HDCP and some multimedia functionality.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd
So, I don't know if this Viewsonic panel just isn't good for me, I have something configured wrong, or I'm being too picky. It doesn't seem like ghosting, I was under the impression that was a more smooth smearing.

That would be very small-scale ghosting. I'm not surprised you can see it (it happens on every LCD in existence), but it's how much it gets in your way that matters.

The effect is most noticeable against edges, such as a door frame in the game. Rapid movement shows different parts of the door frame completely misaligned, in PERFECTLY proportioned inch and a half blocks.

You can witness the same effect on the desktop with a black background and dragging the selection box back and forth rapidly.

I know what you mean. It kind of rips and tears and shreds. I don't know why it does that, but it's probably because different colors move at different speeds on an LCD. More conspicuous artifacts can be attributed to a poor refresh rate setup. It could be that, or an effect to further mask ghosting. Fortunately it is very small-scale.

Edit: Upon reading your statement more clearly, it makes me think vertical sync is disabled somewhere.

I have to add the screen door effect on this monitor is really bad. I don't notice it much in most gaming situations, but it drives me nuts in basically all desktop work. They made a really bad choice with their anti-glare coating.

Well, think of it this way: you have extremely good eyes if you can see that sitting 1.5 ft from your monitor. I see (with glasses on) the screen door sitting about a foot away from my 20WMGX2 as well, but that's why I sit back further. With my glasses on, the screen door effect is unquestionably worse. There's a direct correlation between your visual acuity and how much SDE you notice. Whether the NEC or ViewSonic is better in this regard I've no idea.

I believe that a small dot pitch is actually worse for SDE. Your eyes get confused with such small lines. When you have a bigger pitch, it's clearer for your eyes that it is a matrix instead of a pure image, and it just views it as the matrix it is without trying to combine any lines.

 

[xboxist]

Yeah, was going to say. From their description the tearing seems excessive. Hopefully v-sync is just turned off somewhere.

 

[450R]

I decided against the Hanns-G, but thanks for the reply (xtknight). Would've replied sooner but it seems like the forum is having issues dealing with such a large thread.

Are there any 19" 8-bit LCDs with DVI that are suitable for gaming? Widescreen doesn't really matter, though I would prefer it. Can't afford the 20WMGX2 or the GPU to drive its resolution in games.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I have discovered that V-sync off was about 90% of the problem. With it on, it is still very noticeable to me (less so in games), but tolerable. Is there a way to enable Vsync on the desktop? I know it's not really important there, but the tearing of moving windows around is still pretty irritating. Also, is it better to run my 2025 in 60hz or 75hz?? I was under the impression that true 75hz panels don't really exist, so...

And now that I have my 2025 hooked up side by side with my old Sony G420 CRT, I look on it more favorably now. My poor poor poor Sony monitor has really taken a dumb in color clarity. Doing it's image readjustment thing clears up the washed out effect it seems to get with time, but I have to do it more often than I used to, so it seems apparent this thing is on it's way out.

If only this SDE wasn't so irritating for desktop work. I still think for $200 this monitor was a disgustingly good deal. I have 2 weeks to decide if I'll keep it.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd
I have discovered that V-sync off was about 90% of the problem. With it on, it is still very noticeable to me (less so in games), but tolerable. Is there a way to enable Vsync on the desktop? I know it's not really important there, but the tearing of moving windows around is still pretty irritating. Also, is it better to run my 2025 in 60hz or 75hz?? I was under the impression that true 75hz panels don't really exist, so...

Nope, no VSync on the desktop in Windows XP. There should be in Windows Vista, since it uses D3D9 to draw windows under Aero (set VSync on for DX9). In Linux I believe there is an option as well, and probably Mac OS X with its 3D accelerated interface.

75 Hz panels do not exist, but chips that downsample 75 Hz to 60 Hz exist. So, when you set an LCD to 75 Hz, it is just downsampled (supersampled you could say, kind of like antialiasing) to 60 Hz. So it'll still seem smoother, but it's only truly 60 Hz.

And now that I have my 2025 hooked up side by side with my old Sony G420 CRT, I look on it more favorably now. My poor poor poor Sony monitor has really taken a dumb in color clarity. Doing it's image readjustment thing clears up the washed out effect it seems to get with time, but I have to do it more often than I used to, so it seems apparent this thing is on it's way out.

If only this SDE wasn't so irritating for desktop work. I still think for $200 this monitor was a disgustingly good deal. I have 2 weeks to decide if I'll keep it.

Indeed...sucks that they discontinued it. It was only $300 retail.

 

[Frankie]

I received my NEC 20WMGX2-BK Widescreen from Newegg on Wednesday night. My first impression is WOW!!!! This thing makes my 17 Hitachi LCD look like crap, and I payed just as much for that one in 2003 than I did for this Widescreen one now.

No Back Light Bleed to speak of. No dead or stuck pixels. The image persistence that some of the reviewers on Newegg mentioned is non-existent as far as I can tell. I run my screen saver and have my computer shut the monitor off after 15 minutes of non use and I've had no sign whatsoever of Image persistence. A GREAT monitor, and with the $50 rebate if you buy it before December 31 is the icing on the cake for me.

Just one thing I need to ask xtknight. It's only a nuisance to me, however when I switch from TV to PC or if I change the DV mode or if I hit the display key to see what mode I'm in the box that comes up won't cut off by itself. It turned off by itself initially but not I have to hit the menu key to turn it off. Not sure if did something or not when I was messing with the controls while playing with it. In any case, is yours like that and if not how to fix it? Again, not a huge deal and nothing to make me want to RMA the thing back, just a nuisance.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Frankie
I received my NEC 20WMGX2-BK Widescreen from Newegg on Wednesday night. My first impression is WOW!!!! This thing makes my 17 Hitachi LCD look like crap, and I payed just as much for that one in 2003 than I did for this Widescreen one now.

No Back Light Bleed to speak of. No dead or stuck pixels. The image persistence that some of the reviewers on Newegg mentioned is non-existent as far as I can tell. I run my screen saver and have my computer shut the monitor off after 15 minutes of non use and I've had no sign whatsoever of Image persistence. A GREAT monitor, and with the $50 rebate if you buy it before December 31 is the icing on the cake for me.

Just one thing I need to ask xtknight. It's only a nuisance to me, however when I switch from TV to PC or if I change the DV mode or if I hit the display key to see what mode I'm in the box that comes up won't cut off by itself. It turned off by itself initially but not I have to hit the menu key to turn it off. Not sure if did something or not when I was messing with the controls while playing with it. In any case, is yours like that and if not how to fix it? Again, not a huge deal and nothing to make me want to RMA the thing back, just a nuisance.

Glad you're happy with it. I don't have that problem on mine, but try doing a factory reset under Tools under the options box. I do see a time-out option but it's for the OSM (on-screen menu) and not for notifications.

 

[acrabb]

Originally posted by: xtknight
...This monitor situation is really getting frustrating. First of all, I purchased a 21" Gateway (purchased Gateway computer system, but I returned before opening the box when a call to Gateway revealed that the AMD processor did not have the AM2 chip...). So, I decided to get a core2duo laptop (I know, I digress...). Anyway, Circuit City stopped carrying the 21" Gateway; so, I decided to get the 21" HP (I think it has the same panel). It was on sale for ~$369 - you guessed it, none of the stores around me have that one (and it is out of stock online). So, I decided what the heck, order the Dell. Then, I realize the panel issues... Then, I think I discover a "find" at Wolf Camera (of all places), and what do you know, the price has just gone up over $100. I have more should've, would've, could'ves than I care to discuss (or should I say disguest)

Now, I am guessing that I should have gone with a desktop after all - this laptop (and a $500+ monitor) is really getting expensive

I say plop down the $100 extra (than what you were expecting) and save yourself all the frustration.[/quote]

XT - YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I waited too long for Dell to "make things right". So, they left me hanging - needing a monitor before this weekend (although they promised a callback within 24 hrs on Tues, they called at 5pm on Friday). So, I was forced to drive to the nearest city (~70 miles), to shop for the best monitor (best deal) that I could find. It became apparent that I would have the Samsung LTM210M2 panel (Samsung 215TW; HP F2105; Gateway 2185) - I could not find any S-IPS panels. So, I purchased the 215TW at Compusa - sales rep told me to buy a pack of gum to put the purchase over $500 and I recieved a $50 gift card. FWIW - earlier that day Circuit City sold their last "Open Box" HP F2105 for $310!

Now about the Samsung 215TW - it's ok. Maybe, my expectations are too high, but it doesn't make me oh and ahh. Issue #1 - during the calibration (Monaco), the final adjustment has the brightness set on 1 (scale is 0-100). So, this baby has plenty of room to go up, but I hope there is never a need to go down on brightness! Issue #2 - maybe this isn't specific to this monitor, but adjusting the R value was not moving the slider on the red bar - ok it didnt move it much. I had to center it by adjusting the blue and green. So, now I wonder (because I can probably stay centered by moving red from ~25 to 60+) if something is wrong with my monitor; I havent actually tried adjusting the red it since I finished - I am basing this on the fact that the earlier adjustment was not moving the slider). Finally, the calibration has left the screen on my laptop looking like crap! Everything is way too blue! I am a sports photographer (hobbiest), and I like to take pictures and do a quick color edit and post the photos to the web. Then, when/if orders are placed, I hook up to the external monitor to do final editing of photos before uploading to the printer. So, my exclussive (almost) use, is to ensure that I have good color (my on monitor edit matches the printer). However, the profile for the external monitor leaves the laptop in really bad shape. I have tried applying different profiles at different times, but nothing seems to be working for me. Am I doing something wrong? Does anyone have a suggestion of how I can use one profile for the laptop and another for the external monitor? And another thing the dE was ~3.5 - 4 (I forgot the exact #), but it was worst than the Dell PVA that I sent back.