LCD Buyer's Guide

[ghoti]

Thanks xt and Engel.

The VP930b does well on xt's gradation and banding tests ('After Getting Your LCD'). BUT

Both this VP930b-3 and the 1905FP (Rev A03) I also own, do poorly on xt's grey scale test ('Tweaking Your LCD'), with 253, 254 and 255 (I not even sure I can distinguish 252 from the whiter bands), and no distinguishing possible for 20 and below on the dark end.

Does anyone have colorimeter settings to offer for the VP930b Revision 3 monitor?

Also, does anyone have comments to offer on the pros/ cons of the PerfectSuite software that comes with the monitor (for calibration purposes)? Some comments I saw make me a bit fearful of installing the solftware, although PC World's review link was complimentary about the software.

Thanks for amy help -- past and anticipated.

 

[cheap]

mikuto: I said zero in on target in general sense, a good player of course almost never shoots at his target directly and compensates for his lag. My point was a game running faster than 60hz makes a difference.

Anyway, these new TN panels are pretty fast, people report no blurriness, why can't manufacturers push them to their limits? I could live with bad viewing angles for a while as long as it gave me good refresh rates. Then switch to a better looking panel in the future when they get faster.

No I've never played on LCD before. Used to have a really expensive 19" Sony trinitron monitor but it started going bad after a year or so. Right now I'm sort of stuck on this back up 17" crt. Anyway, even a TN panel on my HP laptop blows CRT away for things like text and web pages. Looks really sharp. I want to get a nice big LCD but don't feel like crippling myself in games. Dunno, I might do it anyway to make things easier on my eyes.

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: cheap
mikuto: I said zero in on target in general sense, a good player of course almost never shoots at his target directly and compensates for his lag. My point was a game running faster than 60hz makes a difference.

I think the only part we disagree upon is how important this difference is in the context of playing on an LCD on the Net, and I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one .

Anyway, these new TN panels are pretty fast, people report no blurriness, why can't manufacturers push them to their limits? I could live with bad viewing angles for a while as long as it gave me good refresh rates. Then switch to a better looking panel in the future when they get faster.

Don't believe the reports that say 'no blurriness' - I'm telling you, gamer to gamer : it's still there. xtknight and others in the forum have mentioned it, and I can confirm it first hand as well. I'm not sure how much an increase in the refresh rate would help, but I guess it could go either way; there are quite a few factors to take into account.

I have no idea why manufacturers haven't included this option yet; it might well be for economic reasons and nothing to do with any technical limitation. After all, it wouldn't be the only example: the NEC 90GX2 I'm testing at the moment has no option for 1:1 display; you either run at the native screen size, or cope with interpolation. And just placing a 1:1 1024x768 image in the center of a 1280x1024 screen is so easy to do that not including this option in the monitor's firmware is just... ridiculous.

No I've never played on LCD before. Used to have a really expensive 19" Sony trinitron monitor but it started going bad after a year or so. Right now I'm sort of stuck on this back up 17" crt. Anyway, even a TN panel on my HP laptop blows CRT away for things like text and web pages. Looks really sharp. I want to get a nice big LCD but don't feel like crippling myself in games. Dunno, I might do it anyway to make things easier on my eyes.

Well, I think you should give yourself the opportunity to try it out for a few hours of gaming before making the final decision. A store with a good return policy maybe?

I've been having the exact same dilemma. I've been working and playing on an excellent trinitron monitor for the past 7 years, but... all good things eventually come to an end. I definitely need to go the LCD route, since I have a good pair of eyes to protect . After doing a few BF2 sessions on this 19'' TN panel, I can safely say my gaming performance hasn't been affected at all (but then again, maybe it was crappy to begin with ). I've decided to go for the 20WGX2, as it's clear to me now that TN technology is not for me, and the extra screen space will come in handy while working. My only concern right now is that the 20WGX2 will have more input lag, enough to become discernible; well, I guess I'll know in a few days - ordered it already.

 

[Torque79]

Originally posted by: xtknight
I'm in limbo mode right now with regards to 22" LCDs. The AL2216WBD is and has been up there, though. The 226BW will be up shortly, probably right after I get around to all these posts. I saw the 226BW, but my expectations were probably too high as it wasn't that thrilling. It was hooked up to a cloned VGA connection at Circuit City so who knows what that did to the quality. I wasn't able to see any other 22" screens nearby or ones showing the same material. The 226BW was actually hooked up to an HP Vista PC. I was impressed by the level of black detail it showed, and the response time, though.

It was good to see the comment posted by another person with a positive review for the 225BW, because that is closer to my desired price range, and I'd really like to get more viewing space for my dollar if possible (without sacrificing TOO much picture quality). Mind you, I'll be going from a 17" non-flat CRT (my old 19" CRT died) so ANYTHING would make me happier lol.

when you say you're in limbo, is it because xbitlabs is not reviewing 22" lcds much yet? The pricing seems so mainstream now (like $50-100 canadian more than 20" usually), it's hard to pass up the extra 2" for a non-informed consumer (such as myself) who has no idea which panel looks better. My local stores never have many monitors on display and never the ones I'm considering anyways, so I'm very dependent on the internet (and great people like yourself) to help!

BTW, is the 225BW and/or 226BW HDCP compliant? I'm very cheap, and unlikely to buy another monitor for some time, so having that future proof function (in case it's ever implemented) is preferred.

If it's not clear, I have been looking over the multimedia/light gaming section (primarily WoW with occasional CSS and BF2 thrown in and lots of movies and TV shows).

 

[xtknight]

New article on the site, a recap of what you guys should already know if you want to call yourself an LCD geek.

LCD Tech Overview

 

[stefan9]

Need some advice guys. I am a total noob when it comes to lcd's. Still currently on a 17 inch crt samsung syncmaster 753s. I am now looking at upgrading to a 22inch wide screen lcd.

Now being in South Africa my choices are these: BENQ 222W or Acer AL2216 given my current budget.

Now I use my pc mostly for gaming. My question is whether at 1680 x 1050 my 8800gts will be able to handle it?? Should I go for a smaller screen or will my gfx be able to handle a 22 inch??

 

[imported_K3N]

the maximum resolution an 8800gts can handle is 2560 x 1600, so you're fine

 

[stefan9]

I know it can support it . The question is whether it can handle games at that resolution with aa and af turned on and lots of effects. whether I will expierence lots of lagging.

 

[cheap]

Originally posted by: mikuto
I've decided to go for the 20WGX2, as it's clear to me now that TN technology is not for me, and the extra screen space will come in handy while working. My only concern right now is that the 20WGX2 will have more input lag, enough to become discernible; well, I guess I'll know in a few days - ordered it already.

Let me know how that LCD works out for you.

 

[imported_hyper]

Originally posted by: mikutoI've decided to go for the 20WGX2, as it's clear to me now that TN technology is not for me, and the extra screen space will come in handy while working. My only concern right now is that the 20WGX2 will have more input lag, enough to become discernible; well, I guess I'll know in a few days - ordered it already.

Sorry but do you mean the 20WMGX2 or is there another model w/o the "M"?

edit: ok that's the european version, heh. I just wanted to know where did you hear about it having input lag? I thought it was one of the best LCDs available.

*feels insecure about purchase*

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: cheap
Let me know how that LCD works out for you.

Will do.

Originally posted by: hyper
Sorry but do you mean the 20WMGX2 or is there another model w/o the "M"?

edit: ok that's the european version, heh. I just wanted to know where did you hear about it having input lag? I thought it was one of the best LCDs available.

*feels insecure about purchase*

I've been looking at the information on lesnumeriques.com that xtknight mentioned some time ago; here's the link:
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?...=95&p1=969&ma2=36&mo2=124&p2=1384&ph=1
This particular one is for a comparison between the 20WGX2 and the 971P, but we're mostly interested in the info on the NEC. From the 'Etape 3' dropdown in the middle, you have to choose 'Retard d'affichage comparé à un CRT' - that basically means input lag. As you can see, there is some. Judging by what I read in this forum and on other sites, like widescreengamingforum.com, for example, I think it should still be OK, but I can't know for sure until I see it with my own eyes and shoot down some hostiles with my own, erm, mouse . Anyway, I was confident enough to order it, and it should arrive in a couple of days, hopefully.

 

[Torque79]

I really want a GX2 but I just can't justify the huge extra cost for only a 20" monitor, when I can find a really nice 22" samsung for half its price. I don't understand that pricing scheme at all.

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: Torque79
I really want a GX2 but I just can't justify the huge extra cost for only a 20" monitor, when I can find a really nice 22" samsung for half its price. I don't understand that pricing scheme at all.

It's easy: for the 20W(M)GX2, 33% of any purchase goes to xtknight, for doing more for them than any multi-million-dollar advertising campaign could ever do .

 

[Zebo]

XTKNIGHT- Have you heard anything about NEC's LCD2490WUXi-BK availability?

MIKUTO- Nice review on the 19" GX2, you're right it's the best 19" TN but thats not good enough..all TN's have excessive back light bleed compared to competition but the real problem is uneven backlight bleed you need to look out for The 90GX2 at BB I saw had none. Poor gamma, color viewing angles also goes with terriotry but at least Opticlear makes then look a little better. I also think LGP's TN is better offering wider viewing angles.. for a TN the 90GX2 is good, wide as S-PVA's (which isnt saying much) - look forward to your 20" review/comparo.

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: Zebo
MIKUTO- Nice review on the 19" GX2, you're right it's the best 19" TN but thats not good enough..all TN's have excessive back light bleed compared to competition but the real problem is uneven backlight bleed you need to look out for The 90GX2 at BB I saw had none. Poor gamma, color viewing angles also goes with terriotry but at least Opticlear makes then look a little better. I also think LGP's TN is better offering wider viewing angles.. for a TN the 90GX2 is good, wide as S-PVA's (which isnt saying much) - look forward to your 20" review/comparo.

I'm glad you guys found the post useful; I wouldn't call it a review and never intended to do one, just an addition to the information already available here. We're on the same page - you can find a few good TNs around, they can be good enough for many users, but... not me, as long as I have an alternative that I can (barely ) afford.

After a couple more days of working and playing on this particular 90GX2, I find the backlight bleeding to be its most serious flaw indeed. Buyer beware: anybody looking into getting this model should double-check for this issue, preferably before purchase, of course (or just have a way to return it if you find it bothers you). It's not visible while working with text and normal office stuff, as you'll typically have a lighter background, but when watching a movie, or viewing a darker full-screen picture, it can be annoying.

One good thing to note is that text does look sharper and easier on the eyes than on a couple other LCDs I've seen recently. I suppose other coatings reduce reflections at the cost of losing some sharpness; OptiClear doesn't do such a good job with the reflections, but does seem to make things better in other areas. A tradeoff that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: cheap
Wow, I didn't know that. What's the reasoning behind it? Cheap components? Some fast tn panels are rated at 2ms but more realisticly they're about 10ms.

Actually, I have three in the gaming list that reach under 7 ms for all transitions.

So the panel itself should be able to do about 100hz without blurring/ghosting, so what gives?

1000/7=142 Hz

But, they can not because of internal circuitry. The panel driver (for whatever reason) can not receive a signal (from DSP) of higher than 60 Hz. It may be that it's damaging to the crystals if it's much higher than 60 +/-10Hz, and 60 just happened to be a nice, common number.

My guess is they're using cheap slow proccessors to keep prices low. I would gladly pay $100 over regular price for an LCD to actually be able to work as fast as it's panel allowes.

mikuto: It's not that lag, I can deal with couple more ms of lag. I regularly play on servers with 100+ ms ping. It's the overal smoothness of a game. The lower your fps in games the more jittery the game becomes and the less responsive your mouse gets. So low fps affects your aiming and overall performance in shooting games. Say in 90 vs 60 fps comparisson someone in the game comes behind you and opens fire. It would take you I would guess about .3 seconds to do a 180 degree spin in the game. More or less depending on your mouse sensitivity. If you're running at 60hz, your pc will be able to draw about 20 frames during that time or a frame every 9 degrees of movement, while at 90hz you will get about 30 frames or a frame every 6 degrees of movement. 30% give or take less smoother game. In the end the person running at 90hz will just have a 50% smoother 180 degree flick rotation and 50% more responsive mouse which in turn will allow him to zero in on his enemy faster. I've been playing fps games for 10+ years and we can argue about frames per second and human eye until we turn purple. All I know is that for me and my eyes, tested on CRT monitor at resolutions where it's capable of doing 100hz + and a pc which actually could push it to limits, I could clearly feel and see the game become smoother or sluggish as I raised or lowered fps in game to 60, 90, and 120.

As long as LCDs are hold-type displays, you probably will notice it on a 0 ms LCD. Check out the new "120 Hz" LCDs coming out, which are actually 60 Hz but they introduce a black frame inbetween to total 120. It also helps eliminate retinal persistence resulting in a smoother image.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ghoti
Thanks xt and Engel.

The VP930b does well on xt's gradation and banding tests ('After Getting Your LCD'). BUT

Both this VP930b-3 and the 1905FP (Rev A03) I also own, do poorly on xt's grey scale test ('Tweaking Your LCD'), with 253, 254 and 255 (I not even sure I can distinguish 252 from the whiter bands), and no distinguishing possible for 20 and below on the dark end.

Distinguishing the white ones is actually pretty hard on any display. I can't see much difference on my calibrated GX2. It's mainly the dark ones that you should worry about.

Does anyone have colorimeter settings to offer for the VP930b Revision 3 monitor?

Also, does anyone have comments to offer on the pros/ cons of the PerfectSuite software that comes with the monitor (for calibration purposes)? Some comments I saw make me a bit fearful of installing the solftware, although PC World's review link was complimentary about the software.

Thanks for amy help -- past and anticipated.

I have a VP930b (rev 2 though) and it has a different panel than the rev 3, so my calibration settings would look quite off. I would just give it to you to try anyway but it's on my dad's PC at the moment.

The PerfectSuite software completely freezes the desktop (driver error) on at least a couple of my PCs with new NVIDIA cards, so I'm forced to avoid using it. I wouldn't tend to think it would be that great for calibration, anyway.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Torque79
It was good to see the comment posted by another person with a positive review for the 225BW, because that is closer to my desired price range, and I'd really like to get more viewing space for my dollar if possible (without sacrificing TOO much picture quality). Mind you, I'll be going from a 17" non-flat CRT (my old 19" CRT died) so ANYTHING would make me happier lol.

when you say you're in limbo, is it because xbitlabs is not reviewing 22" lcds much yet? The pricing seems so mainstream now (like $50-100 canadian more than 20" usually), it's hard to pass up the extra 2" for a non-informed consumer (such as myself) who has no idea which panel looks better. My local stores never have many monitors on display and never the ones I'm considering anyways, so I'm very dependent on the internet (and great people like yourself) to help!

BTW, is the 225BW and/or 226BW HDCP compliant? I'm very cheap, and unlikely to buy another monitor for some time, so having that future proof function (in case it's ever implemented) is preferred.

If it's not clear, I have been looking over the multimedia/light gaming section (primarily WoW with occasional CSS and BF2 thrown in and lots of movies and TV shows).

Both the 225BW and 226BW are HDCP compliant. Mainly it is because a reliable site has not yet reviewed the Samsung 22xBW models yet (though X-Bit reported great findings on the 205BW, the 225BW uses a Chi Mei panel and the 226BW is a drastically different Samsung panel AFAIK). I suppose they would be fine with general usage. I just wasn't that impressed by them at the store. They had an overwhelming dark look to them (probably because they're TN). Recommending TNs isn't something I like doing (unless for gaming). I do have the Acer 22" TN up there at the moment, as it had the best results from BeHardware's reviews and also a solid reputation on HardForums for having good default color settings vs. the other 22" models (including Samsung 225BW).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: stefan9
Need some advice guys. I am a total noob when it comes to lcd's. Still currently on a 17 inch crt samsung syncmaster 753s. I am now looking at upgrading to a 22inch wide screen lcd.

Now being in South Africa my choices are these: BENQ 222W or Acer AL2216 given my current budget.

Now I use my pc mostly for gaming. My question is whether at 1680 x 1050 my 8800gts will be able to handle it?? Should I go for a smaller screen or will my gfx be able to handle a 22 inch??

The 8800GTS should easily be able to handle 1680x1050, for gaming at max settings. If in doubt, look at benchmarks but I'm pretty sure the 8800GTS dominates them.

Go for the Acer AL2216 as recommended in the OP.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Torque79
I really want a GX2 but I just can't justify the huge extra cost for only a 20" monitor, when I can find a really nice 22" samsung for half its price. I don't understand that pricing scheme at all.

I wouldn't call any of the 22" TNs "really nice", honestly. Sure they have a good feature set, an attractive price, and a reasonable size but when it comes to image quality which IMO is the most important thing, they fall way short.

Originally posted by: Zebo
XTKNIGHT- Have you heard anything about NEC's LCD2490WUXi-BK availability?

You probably know more about it than I. I haven't been at HardForums lately. I think the 24WMGX3 is supposed to be available quite late this year. You said the 24WMGX3 is using an S-PVA (big disappointment). Maybe NEC's electronics can revive S-PVAs, though. Is the LCD2490 supposed to have an S-IPS?

Edit: little did I know they already released the LCD2490 and it's an A-TW-IPS. It does seem out-of-stock everywhere atm.

Originally posted by: mikuto

Originally posted by: cheap
Let me know how that LCD works out for you.

Will do.

Originally posted by: hyper
Sorry but do you mean the 20WMGX2 or is there another model w/o the "M"?

edit: ok that's the european version, heh. I just wanted to know where did you hear about it having input lag? I thought it was one of the best LCDs available.

*feels insecure about purchase*

I've been looking at the information on lesnumeriques.com that xtknight mentioned some time ago; here's the link:
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?...=95&p1=969&ma2=36&mo2=124&p2=1384&ph=1
This particular one is for a comparison between the 20WGX2 and the 971P, but we're mostly interested in the info on the NEC. From the 'Etape 3' dropdown in the middle, you have to choose 'Retard d'affichage comparé à un CRT' - that basically means input lag. As you can see, there is some. Judging by what I read in this forum and on other sites, like widescreengamingforum.com, for example, I think it should still be OK, but I can't know for sure until I see it with my own eyes and shoot down some hostiles with my own, erm, mouse . Anyway, I was confident enough to order it, and it should arrive in a couple of days, hopefully.

I don't know a single person who has returned the 20WGX2 due to input lag problems. I don't have any problems for general usage, and I couldn't tell you how it was for gaming as I never game. Out of the few I've played I've had no issues. The mouse movement does seem perhaps a little slower than previous LCDs (Samsung 710t and ViewSonic VP930b), but that could be because of resolution and dot pitch. Undoubtedly, I'd need to adjust my mouse to a higher precision (like 2000dpi) to get smooth motion. And, at 2000dpi, it is indeed smooth but the mouse is so fast I can't use it.

 

[Torque79]

thank you very much for your thoughts. though I do enjoy gaming, I think I'd actually rather have superior picture quality than perfect gaming personally. I wish I had some experience with actual LCD use so I'd know in advance, but oh well. FPS games are not as important to me as WoW for example, though I do like to play them from time to time.

I think I have narrowed my choice to two acer options. 20" with glossy good panel but no HDCP, which I really like the sound of but is not readily available in my area (I have seen laptop glossy screens and love them), or the 22" TN which might disappoint on picture quality, but is larger and has HDCP compliance.

might have to ebay for the 20", but it's probably worth it. I love the internet, I never would have known to consider panel type and it obviously makes a big difference. I don't want my movies all washed out or overly dark etc.

 

[cheap]

Originally posted by: xtknight
As long as LCDs are hold-type displays, you probably will notice it on a 0 ms LCD. Check out the new "120 Hz" LCDs coming out, which are actually 60 Hz but they introduce a black frame inbetween to total 120. It also helps eliminate retinal persistence resulting in a smoother image.

Wouldn't that introduce flicker just like on CRTs?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Zebo
XTKNIGHT- Have you heard anything about NEC's LCD2490WUXi-BK availability?

You probably know more about it than I. I haven't been at HardForums lately. I think the 24WMGX3 is supposed to be available quite late this year. You said the 24WMGX3 is using an S-PVA (big disappointment). Maybe NEC's electronics can revive S-PVAs, though. Is the LCD2490 supposed to have an S-IPS?

Edit: little did I know they already released the LCD2490 and it's an A-TW-IPS. It does seem out-of-stock everywhere atm.
.

I thought you knew all about it..you told me a few pages back

Originally posted by: xtknight
For those interested, here are some prelim specs on upcoming NECs (24" and 26"). I think they still use CCFLs, but probably the new ones. They are aimed toward pro/medical imaging, but if the response time is good they should be sick for gaming/movies as long as you're willing to pay the steep prices. They may not have component/S-Video/composite inputs though. If this is true, then the new CCFLs may be in LCDs quicker than I thought, but at quite a premium price. I'm sticking with my early next year guess for more consumer super CCFL LCDs (20"+).

LCD2490WUXi-BK - estimate of $1450
A-TW-IPS panel
1920x1200
VGA, DVI-D, DVI-I
4 year warranty
Height, swivel, pivot adjustments
Optional Soundbar
Shipping in November

--------

LCD2690WUXi-BK - estimate of $1750
A-TW-IPS Panel
1920x1200
800:1 contrast
12 ms response, 5 ms g2g
178/178
400 cd/m2
VGA, DVI-D, DVI-I
4 year warranty
Height, swivel, pivot adjustments
Optional Soundbar
92% coverage of adobe color gamut.
Should be available last week of september/first week of october.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I thought you knew all about it..you told me a few pages back

Naw, that was simply copied from TravBomb (who works at NEC)'s posts on HardForum. I believe I mentioned that, but perhaps in another post. Release dates change quite a bit so I'd pursue him for the latest info.

Originally posted by: cheap

Originally posted by: xtknight
As long as LCDs are hold-type displays, you probably will notice it on a 0 ms LCD. Check out the new "120 Hz" LCDs coming out, which are actually 60 Hz but they introduce a black frame inbetween to total 120. It also helps eliminate retinal persistence resulting in a smoother image.

Wouldn't that introduce flicker just like on CRTs?

If it were implemented exactly like I described, yes. However what they actually do is toggle 16 horizontal backlights. That reduces the flicker by a considerable margin, AFAIK. I'm not completely sure how they're doing it, but they are definitely aware of the flicker problem and are constantly improving the tech to avoid that happening, including not darkening the image completely, or darkening only parts of it at the right times.

Originally posted by: Torque79
thank you very much for your thoughts. though I do enjoy gaming, I think I'd actually rather have superior picture quality than perfect gaming personally. I wish I had some experience with actual LCD use so I'd know in advance, but oh well. FPS games are not as important to me as WoW for example, though I do like to play them from time to time.

I think I have narrowed my choice to two acer options. 20" with glossy good panel but no HDCP, which I really like the sound of but is not readily available in my area (I have seen laptop glossy screens and love them), or the 22" TN which might disappoint on picture quality, but is larger and has HDCP compliance.

might have to ebay for the 20", but it's probably worth it. I love the internet, I never would have known to consider panel type and it obviously makes a big difference. I don't want my movies all washed out or overly dark etc.

Oh? I'm obviously missing something. Why wouldn't you simply be able to order the Acer 20" from Newegg?

 

[Torque79]

I'll have to investigate again, but I believe last time I tried newegg would not deliver to Canada. I can only examine about 4 or 5 computer hardware providers from work, but so far the only one I have been able to locate of this model was refurb.

I'll have to look at a few more from home (maybe ncix.com), I can't get to all of them from here.