LCD Buyer's Guide

[Zebo]

Since there arnt any decent CRT's made anymore this thread is really in time..maybe even a little late since FD trintrons stopped porduction in Dec 2003 and U-NX Diamondtrons in Dec04.

Personally i can't stand LCDs for anything but text which it's far superior to any CRT. Motion Blur (ghosting) is so intolerable on both my dells I get motion sick after only 15 minutes playtime. To say some people should just deal with it or are being too sensitive is bit crass but they have no choice anyway... Toms' has shown the best LCD's today, dispite thier advertised 8 and even 5 ms response time hover in the low 20's. A CRT is 400x that. So instant to human eye as to say none exists. I'd wager anyone could pass an a/b test with the VP930B vs. Diamond Pro 930SB.

 

[Keeir]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Since there arnt any decent CRT's made anymore this thread is really in time..maybe even a little late since FD trintrons stopped porduction in Dec 2003 and U-NX Diamondtrons in Dec04.

Personally i can't stand LCDs for anything but text which it's far superior to any CRT. Motion Blur (ghosting) is so intolerable on both my dells I get motion sick after only 15 minutes playtime. To say some people should just deal with it or are being too sensitive is bit crass but they have no choice anyway... Toms' has shown the best LCD's today, dispite thier advertised 8 and even 5 ms response time hover in the low 20's. A CRT is 400x that. So instant to human eye as to say none exists. I'd wager anyone could pass an a/b test with the VP930B vs. Diamond Pro 930SB.

Actually, Toms has shown that a number of LCDs are approaching below 16ms across the board. But beyond that, I think xknight is trying to prevent this thread from becoming LCD vs CRT since there are valid reason to go either way.

I would say that depending on your Dell models you may be someone who is particular sensitive to ghosting, which xknight mentions. However, a sample of close to a 100 people using a 20ms Dell 1905, found that in 4-8 hours a day work with CAD/FEA applications and office work, the ghosting was only noticed by 5-10 (personal data). Close to 75 people perfered the LCD over the previous Viewsonic CRTs. ::shrug::

 

[CP5670]

It's probably a lot less noticeable in office programs than FPS games. I can notice the blurring easily even on low response time monitors but somehow don't mind it that much except in a handful of online and/or fast-paced games. The ghosting isn't really my main reason for preferring CRTs.

Anyway, xtknight, just in case you missed my comment earlier, put in some info on X-brite/Opticlear, maybe in the technologies section. There are only four desktop LCDs currently available with that coating, but they look way better than any other LCD in my opinion.

 

[Nextman916]

xtnight can you teach me how to use samsungs magic bright calibration? I have changed my settings to get great color but the monitors seems to still be a bit off.

 

[Keeir]

Hmm

I would think rotating 3-d bodies at FPS approaching 120 would produce "ghosting"
(And it does by the way, a transition from blue to green to blue is almost funny)

 

[xtknight]

I'd bet you $1000 anyone with eyes could notice the motion blur (on anything hovering 20 ms across the scale) assuming they know what to look for. But I'm talking about it bothering or distracting you. Please keep in mind there's a difference.

Originally posted by: CP5670
Anyway, xtknight, just in case you missed my comment earlier, put in some info on X-brite/Opticlear, maybe in the technologies section. There are only four desktop LCDs currently available with that coating, but they look way better than any other LCD in my opinion.

Oh, yes, thanks for reminding me.

Originally posted by: Nextman916
xtnight can you teach me how to use samsungs magic bright calibration? I have changed my settings to get great color but the monitors seems to still be a bit off.

Sorry, I'm not sure how to use the calibration in the MagicTune software. I couldn't figure out what you were supposed to do with the gradients at the bottom and the picker box?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Keeir

Originally posted by: Zebo
Since there arnt any decent CRT's made anymore this thread is really in time..maybe even a little late since FD trintrons stopped porduction in Dec 2003 and U-NX Diamondtrons in Dec04.

Personally i can't stand LCDs for anything but text which it's far superior to any CRT. Motion Blur (ghosting) is so intolerable on both my dells I get motion sick after only 15 minutes playtime. To say some people should just deal with it or are being too sensitive is bit crass but they have no choice anyway... Toms' has shown the best LCD's today, dispite thier advertised 8 and even 5 ms response time hover in the low 20's. A CRT is 400x that. So instant to human eye as to say none exists. I'd wager anyone could pass an a/b test with the VP930B vs. Diamond Pro 930SB.

Actually, Toms has shown that a number of LCDs are approaching below 16ms across the board. But beyond that, I think xknight is trying to prevent this thread from becoming LCD vs CRT since there are valid reason to go either way.

I would say that depending on your Dell models you may be someone who is particular sensitive to ghosting, which xknight mentions. However, a sample of close to a 100 people using a 20ms Dell 1905, found that in 4-8 hours a day work with CAD/FEA applications and office work, the ghosting was only noticed by 5-10 (personal data). Close to 75 people perfered the LCD over the previous Viewsonic CRTs. ::shrug::

Thats all about convergence which LCD's pwn, not motion.

I dont want this to be LCD CRT thread either.. there are no good CRT's anymore like I said so it would'nt be much of a contest anyway. I'd definity go with what's recommended in this thread.

I have several of the dell monitors. 2001, 2005 are what I'm talking about since the 1905 is totally unacceptable.

 

[xtknight]

Maybe I should link the specific monitor recommendations from my OP to a HTML file instead so I can format it better, plus the OP gets kinda cluttered. What do you guys think? Likely I'll have individual links for HTPC, Photo-editing, Gaming, Movies, etc. and that's it under the recommendations section of the OP.

 

[wpeng]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Maybe I should link the specific monitor recommendations from my OP to a HTML file instead so I can format it better, plus the OP gets kinda cluttered. What do you guys think? Likely I'll have individual links for HTPC, Photo-editing, Gaming, Movies, etc. and that's it under the recommendations section of the OP.

Sounds fine to me. Also, are there any other monitors with good adjustable stands other than the Dells?

 

[Keeir]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Keeir

Originally posted by: Zebo
Since there arnt any decent CRT's made anymore this thread is really in time..maybe even a little late since FD trintrons stopped porduction in Dec 2003 and U-NX Diamondtrons in Dec04.

Personally i can't stand LCDs for anything but text which it's far superior to any CRT. Motion Blur (ghosting) is so intolerable on both my dells I get motion sick after only 15 minutes playtime. To say some people should just deal with it or are being too sensitive is bit crass but they have no choice anyway... Toms' has shown the best LCD's today, dispite thier advertised 8 and even 5 ms response time hover in the low 20's. A CRT is 400x that. So instant to human eye as to say none exists. I'd wager anyone could pass an a/b test with the VP930B vs. Diamond Pro 930SB.

Actually, Toms has shown that a number of LCDs are approaching below 16ms across the board. But beyond that, I think xknight is trying to prevent this thread from becoming LCD vs CRT since there are valid reason to go either way.

I would say that depending on your Dell models you may be someone who is particular sensitive to ghosting, which xknight mentions. However, a sample of close to a 100 people using a 20ms Dell 1905, found that in 4-8 hours a day work with CAD/FEA applications and office work, the ghosting was only noticed by 5-10 (personal data). Close to 75 people perfered the LCD over the previous Viewsonic CRTs. ::shrug::

Thats all about convergence which LCD's pwn, not motion.

I dont want this to be LCD CRT thread either.. there are no good CRT's anymore like I said so it would'nt be much of a contest anyway. I'd definity go with what's recommended in this thread.

Alright Folks

Situation: I have the results of a IT survey at a company where 108 Viewsonic (fairly good) CRTs were replaced with Dell 1905 20ms monitors

Elapsed Time: 30 days

97 people responded
75 were happier with the new LCD than the old CRT
9 Were unhappy and request return of CRT (thats right 9/108)
5 listed ghosting or blurring as the reason
2 listed color
2 listed excess brightness

Monitor use is with 3-D applications that render at more than 100 fps.
Monitor use exceed 4 hours a day



Not saying they were all the most concerned about visual, but they do stare at moving images rendered with OpenGL at significant frame rates for a good portion of every day. Only 5 out of 108 people affected felt the need to complaign about ghosting as having a serious affect with a relatively slow monitor.




Based on these results, you are a fairly sensitive to ghosting if its a significant concern for you. Close to 70% of the people at a Software/Engineering company felt that a 1905 was superior to a 19" Viewsonic CRT (for the office use, which includes LOTs of 3-D work). Less than 5% felt the ghosting on the 1905 to be a significant concern as to return the CRT as thier primary work monitor.

My own observation is that the Monitor does ghost
In ghosts in several CAD programs very noticably because of the unfortunate choice of background color several make. It ghosts in FEA work and it ghosts in office work. But, most of the people didn't seem to mind

 

[xtknight]

Nice Keeir, that'll be very helpful data to use in the ghosting section. Mind if I quote you in my OP?

 

[Keeir]

You can if you want to...

But I am a little concerned the data is also skewed by people who find the ghosting better than LCD flicker, IE the ghosting does bother them, but the lack of flicker makes up for it

It was a nice survey result to pass on to management though (they weren't too happy with the cost of the LCD migration)

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: xtknight
LCD Buyer's Guide
As of Friday, Dec 12, 2005

You're in the future.


Good guide. I wish there was one of these back when I was looking for an LCD to buy (ended up with a ViewSonic VP171B-2 and I :heart: it)

 

[Nextman916]

Yah..lol everyone i asked so far didnt figure out the calibration. It varies from model to model but i was hoping you would teach me the principal, but oh well.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Tremulant

Originally posted by: xtknight
LCD Buyer's Guide
As of Friday, Dec 12, 2005

You're in the future.


Good guide. I wish there was one of these back when I was looking for an LCD to buy (ended up with a ViewSonic VP171B-2 and I :heart: it)

:Q Fixed. Cool. I hope I didn't give people the impression TNs are 'bad' because they aren't by any means (VP171b-2 is AUO TN). I love my Samsung 710T (Samsung TN) as well. No, it doesn't have the best viewing angles, but I don't look from the sides every day. I don't need photo-accurate colors either.

Originally posted by: Nextman916
Yah..lol everyone i asked so far didnt figure out the calibration. It varies from model to model but i was hoping you would teach me the principal, but oh well.

Well I know a fair amount about calibration itself, but I couldn't figure out the Samsung MagicTune software for the life of me. I'm not sure if you're supposed to use that picker so I just ignored it and it came out fine anyway. Even when calibrated I've noticed it doesn't always look that great though.

Updated OP a bit with better formatting and added in Samsung 970P.

 

[xtknight]

Now I'd like to hear people's opinions on their LCDs. Please reply and state which model you have and how you like it/don't like it (pros and cons) and that would be awesome.

Also I think I'll do away with the HTML idea because the way I have the recommendations listed now is more condensed and seems to be working better.

Edit: fixed grammar error

 

[RichUK]

I haven't read through all of the posts, so sorry if this has already been mentioned, but i noticed that you had not talked in the OP about 6bit and 8bit true colour processing/replication, and the dithering technique used on 6bit colour processing. I think this will be useful information when purchasing a new LCD, as this could influence the purchase. Depending on what sort of user you are, ?do you require a fast response time?, or ?do you require better truer colour replication??

For example the result of 6bit true colour

2^6 x 2^6 x 2^6 = 64 x 64 x 64 = 262,144 True colours + the use of dithering techniques to = 16.2million colours to the naked eye

The result of 8bit true colour

2^8 x 2^8 x 2^8 = 256 x 256 x 256 = 16,777,216 True colours to the naked eye

Also 10bit colour processing is now available but not on PC LCD monitors at the moment, which equates to 32 billion true colours to the naked eye.

And also the general rule of thumb when buying present day LCD monitors. If the place of purchase or manufacturer does not stipulate whether the specific LCD has 8 or 6bit colour, I would say ?a monitor with12ms or faster response time will be 6-bit and a 20ms response time and slower panels are 8-bit?, from this difference in colour replication there generates a different target audience, if cost is not a factor.

For example

1. Fast response time with the sacrifice in actual true colour replication, is more applicable for a gamer

2. The trade off in 8bit colour processing is a slower response time which would be more applicable for a CAD/CGI user

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Now I'd like to hear people's opinions on their LCDs. Please reply and state which model you have and how you like it/don't like it (pros and cons) and that would be awesome.

Also I think I'll do away with the HTML idea because the way I have the recommendations listed now is more condensed and seems to be working better.

Edit: fixed grammar error

My LG 'L1980Q' 19 inch 8ms 16.2m colours TFT

I love this monitor! Going from a 17 inch 16.[something] viewable to 19 inch viewable was a big leap, the only thing that i dislike from the change, is i can notice the difference in colour replication, as it is not as good as the CRT. Also the backlight leakage in the dark is a tad viewable and the blacks are not as black as I would like when playing games, but i must say the real estate the old CRT took up was massive compared to my new slime line TFT sp that is a massive improvement. Also my old CRT could run 100Hz at 1280 x 1024 which was quality

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: RichUK
I haven't read through all of the posts, so sorry if this has already been mentioned, but i noticed that you had not talked in the OP about 6bit and 8bit true colour processing/replication, and the dithering technique used on 6bit colour processing. I think this will be useful information when purchasing a new LCD, as this could influence the purchase. Depending on what sort of user you are, ?do you require a fast response time?, or ?do you require better truer colour replication??

OK, sounds good to me. I'll add it in.

Also 10bit colour processing is now available but not on PC LCD monitors at the moment, which equates to 32 billion true colours to the naked eye.

If you mean 10-bit gamma look-up tables, all they do is convert back to 8-bit 16.7m colors for the LCD modules to display, and that'll probably only benefit if the path all the way to the monitor's internal LUT is 10-bit. I'm unaware of any true 10-bit displays at this point. Off topic but a DLP 3-chip can yield 35 trillion colors though.

And also the general rule of thumb when buying present day LCD monitors. If the place of purchase or manufacturer does not stipulate whether the specific LCD has 8 or 6bit colour, I would say ?a monitor with12ms or faster response time will be 6-bit and a 20ms response time and slower panels are 8-bit?, from this difference in colour replication there generates a different target audience, if cost is not a factor.

For example

1. Fast response time with the sacrifice in actual true colour replication, is more applicable for a gamer

2. The trade off in 8bit colour processing is a slower response time which would be more applicable for a CAD/CGI user

Overdrive has changed all this as of late. There are a lot of S-PVA/S-IPS with Overdrive that bear the marketing moniker "12 ms. g2g" or lower nowadays.

 

[Compellor]

I have a ViewSonic VP930b. Here's my list of pros and cons on this 19" LCD.

Pros:

- 1000:1 contrast ratio (probably a bit lower than that but excellent anyway)
- excellent color rendering
- black level (black looks near black)
- fast response time
- no ghosting in games
- looks good out of its native screen resolution
- text with ClearType on is excellent
- 85Hz maximum refresh rate
- easy menus for adjusting color, brightness, etc.
- adjustable stand for height adjustment
- 2 D-sub and 1 DVI-D inputs
- comes with a quality DVI cable
- cable management on stand

Cons:

- some backlight bleeding near the corners but it's very minimal (no X-shape on mine)
- signal input indicator comes up everytime you change resolutions
- one stuck pixel (thankfully it's on the extreme right of the screen)
- no dead pixels
- viewing angles are good (170 degrees) but I feel they could be better

After using CRTs for years the VP930b far exceeded my expectations. It's an excellent LCD for doing graphics, video, and gaming. Color and contrast is top-notch and is probably this LCD's biggest strength.

For gaming I've yet to see any ghosting. I've played F.E.A.R., COD 2, Quake 4, Chronicles of Riddick, Far Cry, and Half-Life 2 without any issues.

I think the backlight bleeding on this LCD has been a bit overblown by some. The pictures you may have seen make it look worse than it really is. The screen has to be totally black for it to be noticeable. Dark areas in games only show it near the extreme upper corners and it's a very minor distraction. While playing F.E.A.R. I hardly ever noticed it. I think you'd have to be super picky for it to be a problem. But being super picky about displays will eventually drive you insane if you're looking for one with ZERO issues. I've been there with CRTs and it's not worth it.

 

[xtknight]

Thanks for the reviews RichUK and Compellor.

How are your LCDs for scrolling text on a webpage? I notice if I set my 710T to brightness 100 and contrast 100, it gets a fairly annoying reddish streaky blurring. But that only happens when the brightness is very high. Actually I think it's due to the way ClearType works.

Also what do you guys have in the OSD in terms of color adjustment? Gamma? Color temperature? RGB sliders?

 

[BespinReactorShaft]

Originally posted by: Hadsus
Bound resolution. You have just one native resolution which causes issues with text size and interpolation in games. Requires high end video card with very large screens in order to achieve proper frame rates in many video demanding games.

I would really like a large widescreen LCD especially for movies, but I'll be stuck with native resolutions of at least 1680x1050. If interpolation (or letterboxing, god forbid) looks bad and I don't have a GF7800/X1800, I see no other option other than to keep my CRT (in a dual monitor configuration) just for FPS gaming.

 

[imported_ST]

Comparisons of 37" 1080p HTPC LCD's (I have / owned both):

Westinghouse 37"
Pros: Native 1080p (1920x1080 res) input capability, attractive industrial design case, readily available, good detachable speakers, large number of inputs (DVI/Component, etc.)
Cons: No TV Tuner, some banding issues on random sets, slight red push on colors, not much granularity on color/brightness configurations

Sceptre 37"
Pros: CHEAP! Native 1080p (1920x1080 res) input capability, good black levels, extensive color / brightness configuratibility, TV Tuner built in, large number of inputs (DVI/Component, etc.)
Cons: Outdated external case design, not readily available, noise issues from detachable speakers, slow cryptic menu system / EPG,

In summary for an HTPC / Gaming person, like myself :

Both LCD's work great as a primary computer monitor since it supports native 1920x1080 resolutions. Games look great and are quite immersive with such large sets, and show minimal ghosting (this is even being powered at higher FPS, with 7800gtx which they both require for best performance / quality at such hi res). Black levels are acceptable on the Westinghouse, while the Sceptre's are slightly better. There are extensive inputs for both sets w/ HDCP support for future use. Where both shine though is in HTPC use. Get a good system with sufficient horsepower (AMD X2 and 7800GT+), combine it with ffdshow postprocessing capabilities and you'll have a first-class high quality HDTV / DVD playback setup!

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Thanks for the reviews RichUK and Compellor.

How are your LCDs for scrolling text on a webpage? I notice if I set my 710T to brightness 100 and contrast 100, it gets a fairly annoying reddish streaky blurring. But that only happens when the brightness is very high. Actually I think it's due to the way ClearType works.

Also what do you guys have in the OSD in terms of color adjustment? Gamma? Color temperature? RGB sliders?

Scrolling text looks just as good as it does on my Sony CRT. No complaints here.

The VP930b has RGB sliders, SRGB, plus 5 different color temps. I prefer the 6500K setting the best.

 

[doma]

what do u think is the best overall lcd monitor for playing games, writing papers, and media center(watching tv,movies,and music)?