LCD Buyer's Guide

[mourningair]

hi everyone, first of all thanks bunches for this thread, it helped me a lot when i was deciding for my new monitor!

well, the monitor (samsung 920t) has arrived. instead of excited, i'm a bit bummed. i've only found positive reviews of this monitor online but i'm having some problems with it despite the great first impression.
- when i log on or log off windows xp, the lower left corner is purplish instead of blue
- brightness. maybe i'm just not used to it because i had a crt before, but all my photos looks way too bright on here. if i set the brightness down to 40 or 30, the contrast of the pics doesn't improve a lot. also, doing this test: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/color_gradients_3.html, i noticed some uneven transitions (the same goes for a black and white photo of mine, where a black shade moves towards grayer)

i do have to point out that i haven't calibrated the monitor with magic tune yet. is that why all the colour problems? to be honest i don't really know how to work with the calibration thing, i found the adobe gamma program on my crt more straightforward. the instructions on the samsung website aren't very clear to me, but then again, that might be cause i'm not a native speaker of english.

could anyone please help me?

here's a screen shot of the calibration program:
http://www2.shrani.si/files/magictun412225.jpg
and here are the instructions from samsung's website:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Moni...une_02_03s.htm
you can see an animation of how the calibration is supposed to be done... i don't understand whether you're moving the bar at the bottom (under Step 1 etc.) to make the whole thing brighter or darker, or are you moving the square thing in the middle, the way it's done in the animation. if so, what is it exactly that you're trying to do, make the littles square of the same colour as the biggest background or?

sorry for such beginner questions... your help would be very appreciated, in a few days i have to decide whether i'm returning the monitor or not. thank you!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mourningair
could anyone please help me?

here's a screen shot of the calibration program:
http://www2.shrani.si/files/magictun412225.jpg
and here are the instructions from samsung's website:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Moni...une_02_03s.htm
you can see an animation of how the calibration is supposed to be done... i don't understand whether you're moving the bar at the bottom (under Step 1 etc.) to make the whole thing brighter or darker, or are you moving the square thing in the middle, the way it's done in the animation. if so, what is it exactly that you're trying to do, make the littles square of the same colour as the biggest background or?

sorry for such beginner questions... your help would be very appreciated, in a few days i have to decide whether i'm returning the monitor or not. thank you!

Sorry, I have never figured out how to use that MagicTune thing. Very confusing instructions.

Adobe Gamma should work for LCDs too, to a certain extent at least. Try that and see how it turns out.

 

[Michael]

My suggestion for Display Calibration is to buy a gretagmacbeth display calibrator. I was able to get the consumer version for $120 US at a local computer fair. It seems like a lot, but there's 4 LCD monitors in my house (5 including my laptop). The device uses a sensor to automatically adjust your monitor properly. If you leave it plugged in and running, it also will adjust the brightness based on changes in room light.

It is the type of item that you can group up with friends and make a joint purchase as you don't need it connected to have the right colours.

My eyesight either isn't trained enough or keen enough to get the colour settings exactly right. I just let the machine take over and now it looks very good.

Michael

 

[mourningair]

thanks for such quick replies guys. i don't think i can afford the gretagmacbeth calibrator at the moment, i just found out that it costs almost as much as i paid for my lcd screen here :/ maybe i can ask around and see if anyone i know perhaps has it...

xtnight: are you sure adobe gamma is okay? google gave me a forum post of a person who says it's only for crts:
"I have a Samsung LCD monitor and tried to set my Adobe Gamma. My color snyc went crazy. I called Adobe and they told me that Adobe Gamma is only for crt montiors and that it corrupted my icc profile for Samsung."

 

[xtknight]

mourningair: Odd, I did not have those problems with Adobe Gamma calibrating two LCDs. But I finally found the thread where I described how to calibrate LCDs: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1838106&enterthread=y

---
"See my tool at the end of this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1835601&enterthread=y

Originally posted by: xtknight
CMY calibration: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/gradlin-cmy-v0.3.exe
CMY calibration (fullscreen): http://xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/gradlin-cmy-v0.3-fs.exe

Press ESC to end the fullscreen program. Use NVIDIA advanced mode to calibrate. All the colors should be evenly stepped, or purely even, depending on which row in the program you're looking at. And there should be no signs of other colors in the scales. If there is, then you need to calibrate some more.

I just use Advanced Mode in NVIDIA gamma control panel and customly define a curve that best makes the colors evenly stepped and linear. I add/adjust points on the curve until I'm satisfied. Before I calibrated my monitor like this, I found myself constantly adjusting my settings swearing I'd never get them right. Now that I've used that gamma calibration method I haven't touched my monitor's controls at all. Midtones are saturated enough, black level is low enough, and white level is high enough.

I use CMY to calibrate it because RGB is harder for me to see personally (harder to determine if the darker ends are evenly stepped or not). C is just G+B, M is R+B, and Y is R+G, so you're calibrating the same thing while making it easier to see what/how you're adjusting. I have never gotten my monitor calibrated this well using RGB scales. My monitor's default gamma is dreadful in comparison. Using the ICM color profiles is a bad idea IMO. Custom calibration is better. Unless of course you create an ICM from your custom gamma. If you don't know what ICM profiles are, you're not using them.

Adobe Gamma adjustment has also paled in comparison to my CMY scales from my experience. It's also important to make sure the grayscale is linear, but once you get the CMY scales all linear, the grayscale will also become linear. The only downside is that it takes some time. You have to make sure there's no red/green/blue tinge on the grayscale either. You have to individually adjust every curve of R, G, B in Advanced Mode gamma (or equivalent on ATI cards).

Once you have this calibrated though, ClearType will experience less color fringing on text, and antialiasing will work a lot better. Colors will automatically have more contrast against each other because your monitor has been calibrated to match its abilities. It doesn't make the red more red on your screen per se, it makes the green and blue less red, and you perceive the red as more red, if you get what I mean. This is the same idea as High Dynamic Range tone mapping (definitely not HDR bloom though).

So, overview:

1. Adjust brightness and contrast until black level is dark enough and white level is bright enough. Make sure it doesn't hurt your eyes, and that none of the grayscale becomes clipped because of brightness/contrast instability. (Make sure that no colors disappear into black or white or likewise into black or cyan, black or magenta, and black or yellow, respectively per each scale).

2. Proceed to calibrate gamma with CMY+grayscale program.

3. Readjust ClearType gamma to your liking. There's another program that can calibrate ClearType to 100x the precision of Microsoft's tuner.

4. Write the settings down on paper so you don't have to do all this again. And save the color profile. For NVIDIA I export this registry key:

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\NVIDIA Corporation\Global\NVTweak\Devices\VEN_10DE&DEV_0092&SUBSYS_C5183842&REV_A1&INS
00\Color

You will have the same registry key except for a different Device ID (VEN_, etc.). Export that and import it next time you reinstall drivers and you'll be all set. If you change cards, you'll have to change every instance of your current device ID in the .reg file (VEN_,_DEV_,etc) with your new card's ID. If it's a different GPU manufacturer (NVIDIA->ATI change for example you'll have to calibrate again unfortunately, importing it is not easy then). And don't forget, using Digital Vibrance or boosting Saturation is a cardinal sin for calibration. You might have to adjust color components on your monitor's OSD too. Here's what I use now on my VP930b: Red: 94%, Green: 100%, Blue: 89%. The lower blue helps cancel out the fluorescent backlight tinge. Your results may vary though. Generally you should be able to leave all color components at 100% and still get very desirable calibration by using video card gamma and not messing with monitor settings other than brightness/contrast."

 

[samduhman]

xtknight, If the LG L2000C is similiar to the NEC 20WMGX2 how come its not in any of the recommendation lists? Did I miss something?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: samduhman
xtknight, If the LG L2000C is similiar to the NEC 20WMGX2 how come its not in any of the recommendation lists? Did I miss something?

Well it is similar in technology but the DVI port on the L2000C and Dell 2007FPs has been reported to have lots of banding while the NEC has gotten no such reports.

 

[Heartbreaker]

The LG is not that similar. It is a 4:3 panel, the NEC is a differrent panel in 16:10 size. From my perspective it looks like NEC did a fair bit of work after getting the panel of LG. Different screen treatment, possible different backlight and different electronics than the default LG. But this wide panel is also in the new Dell f2007FPW where it seems to be doing quite well there also.

The 4:3 panel has some woes. It looks like LG messed up the DVI input and since dell doesn't do much to panels, both it and LG show a fair bit of banding and even video playback problems.

 

[MarkShot]

Does anyone know what happened to the NEC 2190UX. That was the LCD which I decided to wait for as the vendors hadn't received it yet. Also, I noticed that the 2090UX has dissappeared from the product line.

I just went to NEC's US LCD site and it is no longer in the product list.

Did they cancel it?

Thanks.

 

[MarkShot]

The link:

http://www.necdisplay.com/products/ClassificationFamilyDetail.cfm?ID=1

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: MarkShot
The link:

http://www.necdisplay.com/products/ClassificationFamilyDetail.cfm?ID=1

I have no clue what happened to it. But are you sure it was on the US site to begin with? Some are only on the UK site. I can't remember.

 

[MarkShot]

Yep, I followed it from NEC global to USA LCD product list.

It's funny, since www.necdisplay.com still has the 90 series press release on the home page despite it now being in the product list anymore.

Maybe I will call up their customer service and ask this week.

---

I finally settled on what I wanted and it dissappears as if it never existed!

 

[mourningair]

xtnight: do you think that would work similarly on radeon igp 34m? another downside is that the card doesn't have a dvi out... so i have to use vga. thanks a lot for your instructions, it all sounds a bit complicated, but i'll try to give it a go

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
I'm still on my 21" Trinitron so sorry for the n00b question.

When I was walking through Microcenter the other day I saw a few LCD's with a protective glass screen built into the monitor. Is there a specific name for that?

I'd really like to have that in a widescreen thats decent for gaming and movies if there is a model out that fits that criteria.

X-Brite and OptiClear, contrast coatings. NEC's 20WMGX2 (20" widescreen) has it.

Great thanks for the info

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mourningair
xtnight: do you think that would work similarly on radeon igp 34m? another downside is that the card doesn't have a dvi out... so i have to use vga. thanks a lot for your instructions, it all sounds a bit complicated, but i'll try to give it a go

If it's not in the default ATI control panel you can try RivaTuner.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I was reading through some of the links on the OP, spending considerable amount of time on the widescreen enthusiast gaming forum. That site is quite helpful, in that it provides screenshots of what most current and popular games look like both in 4:3 LCD 19" and 20.1" widescreen LCD.

Having viewed these images, I am actually leaning against going 20.1". I was under the impression that 20.1" would provide more viewable area in a game. For instance, for say an RTS game, one would think that the larger screen would provide a larger viewing area of the game, which would make base building and resource management a bit easier...yet for most of the RTS games shown, the image simply scales to fit the 20.1" screen without necessarily providing a larger viewing area. That, and for many RPG and FPS games, the 20.1" aspect ratio actually appears to stretch the game a bit.

More troublesome is that most legacy games and even some new games dont even support widescreen, and some require patches or third party fixes to even operate in widescreen...otherwise you end up playing the game and normal resolutions, with black bands of dead screen to the left and right of the playable area.

Unless my interpretation of what I read and saw is incorrect, it looks like I will go with the Viewsonic VX922 19".

I can see the widescreen being of most benefit to graphic designers or those who require a lot of real estate to view and run multiple programs...for gamers, perhaps 19" is the better option?

 

[mourningair]

thanks, i might try a program called quickgamma that i found here (http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#QuickGamma) at first before i tackle something more demanding.

which brings me yet to another question about samsung monitors: the magic tune program allows me to set different colour temperatures, but doesn't provide info about kelvins. what i can choose from is "Warm2 - Warm1 - Cool 1 - Cool 2 - Cool 3 - Cool 4 - Cool 5 - Cool 6 - Cool 7 ". which of these is 6500k, the recommended temp.?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mourningair
thanks, i might try a program called quickgamma that i found here (http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#QuickGamma) at first before i tackle something more demanding.

which brings me yet to another question about samsung monitors: the magic tune program allows me to set different colour temperatures, but doesn't provide info about kelvins. what i can choose from is "Warm2 - Warm1 - Cool 1 - Cool 2 - Cool 3 - Cool 4 - Cool 5 - Cool 6 - Cool 7 ". which of these is 6500k, the recommended temp.?

I'm guessing Warm1 is 6500K if there is no "Normal".

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I was reading through some of the links on the OP, spending considerable amount of time on the widescreen enthusiast gaming forum. That site is quite helpful, in that it provides screenshots of what most current and popular games look like both in 4:3 LCD 19" and 20.1" widescreen LCD.

Having viewed these images, I am actually leaning against going 20.1". I was under the impression that 20.1" would provide more viewable area in a game. For instance, for say an RTS game, one would think that the larger screen would provide a larger viewing area of the game, which would make base building and resource management a bit easier...yet for most of the RTS games shown, the image simply scales to fit the 20.1" screen without necessarily providing a larger viewing area. That, and for many RPG and FPS games, the 20.1" aspect ratio actually appears to stretch the game a bit.

More troublesome is that most legacy games and even some new games dont even support widescreen, and some require patches or third party fixes to even operate in widescreen...otherwise you end up playing the game and normal resolutions, with black bands of dead screen to the left and right of the playable area.

Unless my interpretation of what I read and saw is incorrect, it looks like I will go with the Viewsonic VX922 19".

I can see the widescreen being of most benefit to graphic designers or those who require a lot of real estate to view and run multiple programs...for gamers, perhaps 19" is the better option?

If you think you have too many games that don't support widescreen then I'd just go with the NEC 90GX2 or the VX922.

 

[CP5670]

I'm currently in the market for an LCD and thought I would ask for advice in here. This will go on another machine that will primarily be used for windows programs and some older games; I still have my main computer for most of my gaming.

I'm looking to spend around $300-450 on a 17" or 19" unit (which will scale well with 640x480 in old games), although I'm open to options slightly above that. Ideally, I want something with that glossy coating, good black levels, decent response times (8ms G2G would probably be acceptable) and a minimal screen door effect. 8-bit colors would be a plus but aren't that important if it's good in the other categories and doesn't have excessive color banding. Dual inputs (DVI/VGA, and a way to switch between them quickly) and integrated speakers, even if they suck, would also be useful. An included DVI cable would also save me a few dollars.

These are the ones I'm considering:

NEC 70GX2/90GX2: Expensive, but some earlier comments suggested the 90GX2 was worth the money. If these are the same thing apart from the size, I will probably get the significantly cheaper 70GX2.
Acer AL1951: I'm rather confused about this one. It looks like there are several different versions that all have slightly different specs (labeled as AL1951(A), (B), and so on), but I can't find anyone selling anything but the normal AL1951. The D version seems to offer most of what I want, at least on paper.
Viewsonic VP930b: Seems to be a solid all-round performer with very good black levels and viewing angles, but the backlight thing worries me; I saw one of these in person and the X was very apparent. It doesn't have the coating either.
Acer AL2032WA: A 20" one that's closer to $500, but it seems to be one of the very few LCDs with both the coating and a non-TN panel (just going by the listed viewing angles), so it may be worth the extra cost. Although I'm not that keen on widescreen.

Any opinions on these? I can't find much information on the Acer models in particular, although they seem to have very good specs for their prices. Are there any others I should be looking at?

Also, has anyone here bought an LCD from Buy.com? It seems that they allow you to return/replace it within 30 days for any reason, which would be handy if I get one with lots of dead pixels or backlight bleeding.

 

[Starbuck1975]

If you think you have too many games that don't support widescreen then I'd just go with the NEC 90GX2 or the VX922.

It's not that I am converned I have too many games that don't support widescreen...its the very notion that many games I play require extra steps to run in widescreen that is proving a bit discouraging.

 

[xtknight]

CP5670: I think you'd be happiest with the 70GX2. While TN and 6-bit, its brother, the 90GX2, is reported to have the best colors of any of the TN screens. I haven't seen any reviews of the 70GX2 so I can't confirm that though. If you're sensitive to the screen door effect then you should probably turn away from 19" screens. Wanting the coating unfortunately limits your options. But the only thing the 70GX2 is missing is the integrated speakers. I don't think you are going to get any closer than the 70GX2 though. Looking at Buy.com's policy that seems to be the case but I haven't ordered from them. I have always ordered from Newegg and have had no dead pixels.

 

[imported_ST]

Finally got a chance to take a pic of my new Sceptre 42" 1920x1080p LCD TV:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/stranx44/htp2c.jpg

Needless to say it's great, but playing Oblivion on it is giving me headaches!

 

[Zebo]

12 ms Philips 230WP7NS 23" WUXGA LCD Widescreen Monitor review
http://www.bonafidereviews.com/article.php?id=147

Philips may have best warranty in biz...Although some manufacturers consider pixel defects inevitable, Philips does not. Philips is compliant with the ISO 13406-2 Class I standard and the monitors are produced with a zero-tolerance for LCD panel defects. Philips is the only manufacturer to offer their exclusive Perfect Panel warranty, that repairs or replaces any monitor displaying a single pixel defect, bright or dark dot and is backed with 3 years free labor/3 years free services on parts/1 year of exchange.

Anyone looking for large WS should make Philips 230WP7NS part of short list IMO. I want to order one but my video card can barley handle my 20". So that means SLI which so far I have refused to do due to noise considerations.

 

[darXoul]

I'm gonna see the 90GX2 in some real gaming action this week, maybe even tonight.

If I like it, I'll get it. If not, I can tell you what I'm (not) going to do:

- I'm not going to get the NEC 20WGX2 since I simply play too many games that don't support widescreen, and I don't want to play them in a microscopic window;

- I'm not going to get the ViewSonic P227fB because paying like 600 bucks for a CRT which will depreciate to 100 in a few months is just crazy; besides, getting it from Germany kinda sucks in terms of possible RMA; BTW, it's also an invar shadow mask monitor - and the quality here varies a lot, unlike *trons/AG monitors;

- I'm going to stick with my trusted AG (aperture grille) Philips 109P4 or

- get a used Dell P1130 for around $180, of course after seeing it "in action" and making sure it's in mint condition in terms of IQ, AR coating and case/bezel.


Once I see the 90GX2, I can report here with "CRT guy plays on LCD" impressions