LCD Buyer's Guide

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: a1l0s2k9
There is a note next to the NEC 90GX2 in the GAMING section that says the THG review (I'm assuming Tom's Hardware Guide Spring 2006 Collection review?) is misleading. Can you please elaborate?

Oddly enough I think they made a mistake in measuring because I've heard great things about the 90GX2 in gaming, being at VX922 level and having better colors.

I've always put more faith in Tom's LCD reviews than most other reviews because Tom's actually tests pixel response time (err, Latency) themselves in a non-subjective way (i.e. optical probe + digital oscope), in addition to their subject human ("how does it look/feel") tests.

I usually do as well, but I don't think lots of subjective reviews can be wrong...or can they?

Along those same lines, I was surprised to see you rank the 20WMGX2 above all for gaming -- is this truly faster than the 90GX2 + VX922? It seems rather amazing that a larger screen would be faster than a smaller screen (by the same company).

Well on three lesnumeriques tests the NEC beats the VX922 in 3 tests but loses on 1 for ghosting. http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?...o1=95&p1=969&ma2=41&mo2=74&p2=794&ph=1

I'm in the market for a new gaming monitor, and I want to be sure that I purchase the Right Thing(tm). For me, that's the monitor with the fastest response time, with little care for viewing angle, color quality, or brightness/constrast -- I already have 5 other monitors for all other uses (i.e. work, movies, ...), now I just need a really fast LCD for high-speed (...low image quality...) FPS.

Thanks!

The NEC 90GX2 or VX922 would be great unless you want the 20WMGX2. The difference in speed between all of those is negligible.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The NEC 90GX2 or VX922 would be great unless you want the 20WMGX2. The difference in speed between all of those is negligible.

Crap, you had to do this to me. I was impressed by the color clarity and intensity of the 90GX2, but moved away from it largely because of the Tom's Hardware review.

If the 90GX2 is just as suitable for gaming as the VX922, looks like I may have to do some more reading.

 

[a1l0s2k9]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Well on three lesnumeriques tests the NEC beats the VX922 in 3 tests but loses on 1 for ghosting. http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?...o1=95&p1=969&ma2=41&mo2=74&p2=794&ph=1

Great info, thanks!

I can't read French, so I'm having a hard time deciphering what exactly that review shows on lesnumeriques. Using Babelfish and looking at the various screenshots from the pulldown, there seems to be a "better" and "worse" picture for each test. Comparing the 20WGX2 to the VX922, it seems to show that the 20WGX2 looks better in the first picture, but worse in the second picture (for the racecar and text tests). Is the second test run at a faster speed? I'm not clear what is different between the two.

Comparing the 90GX2 to the VX922, the 90GX2 seems to do very poorly in both racecar tests (but better in both text tests). The movie looks sharper on the VX922, but the viewing angle clearly seems better on the 90GX2. Am I interpreting this information correctly?

Based soley on the racecar/text pictures, it appears that the VX922 and 90GX2 are almost exactly the same speed, but perhaps the VX922 has a better "overdrive" (or whatever you want to call it) chip. I say that because the spacing of the ghosting seems almost identical between the two, but the VX922 definitely looks better.

Comparing the 20WGX2 to the VX922, it seems the 20WGX2 looks sharper at low speeds, but the VX922 looks sharper at high speeds. Again the VX922 looks beter for the movie, and again the 20WGX2 has a much better viewing angle (and looking at the pictures used for the viewing angle test, the 20WGX2 looks sharper, too).

Lastly, after finding an english version of the lesnumeriques reviews:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/602-...lcd-survey-2-3-4-6-8-ms-and-above.html

It seems both the 90GX2 and VX922 are based on AU Optronics panels. ViewSonic claims 2ms, and NEC claims 4ms, but they could in fact be using the same panel. So either the 90GX2 is using the same panel and has different (apparently slower?) overdrive, or it is using a slower AU Optronics panel than the VX922. Does that seem correct to you?

Am I understanding these tests properly? I appreciate your great insight xtknight, it has already been very valuable!!

For broader needs but still being Gaming capable, it seems the 20WGX2 would be the best monitor, but so far I think the VX922 would be the #2 monitor, with the 90GX2 as #3. Thoughts? For my particular scenario where only high-speed (low quality) rendering is critical, it seems the VX922 is the ideal monitor. I appreciate your feedback!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: a1l0s2k9
Great info, thanks!

I can't read French, so I'm having a hard time deciphering what exactly that review shows on lesnumeriques. Using Babelfish and looking at the various screenshots from the pulldown, there seems to be a "better" and "worse" picture for each test. Comparing the 20WGX2 to the VX922, it seems to show that the 20WGX2 looks better in the first picture, but worse in the second picture (for the racecar and text tests). Is the second test run at a faster speed? I'm not clear what is different between the two.

I don't know French either but the first two are picture tests labeled slow ("better") and then fast ("worse"), I think, then come the text ones labeled slow then fast.. (Anyway it's relative so we can just go by that.)

Comparing the 90GX2 to the VX922, the 90GX2 seems to do very poorly in both racecar tests (but better in both text tests).

To me the 90GX2 looks like it has a slightly faster pixel decay time in the first image (and the 20WMGX2 has a noticeably faster decay time). Maybe you are referring to the pixel matrix of the 90GX2 being too coarse-looking. (I don't think that is noticeable in practical use.)

The movie looks sharper on the VX922, but the viewing angle clearly seems better on the 90GX2. Am I interpreting this information correctly?

Well I don't blame you, it is hard to interpret. I'd say both the 90GX2/20WMGX2 passed the film test better because they display skin tones without oversaturating or overbrightening them. But some people may prefer the high contrast VX922-like look.

Based soley on the racecar/text pictures, it appears that the VX922 and 90GX2 are almost exactly the same speed, but perhaps the VX922 has a better "overdrive" (or whatever you want to call it) chip. I say that because the spacing of the ghosting seems almost identical between the two, but the VX922 definitely looks better.

I'm really not sure whether to put the 20WMGX2 ahead of the VX922 or not, but it does win the majority of the tests, and plus it might not have such an aggressive overdrive so color artifacts will be even less. That is just a guess though.

Lastly, after finding an english version of the lesnumeriques reviews:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/602-...lcd-survey-2-3-4-6-8-ms-and-above.html

It seems both the 90GX2 and VX922 are based on AU Optronics panels. ViewSonic claims 2ms, and NEC claims 4ms, but they could in fact be using the same panel. So either the 90GX2 is using the same panel and has different (apparently slower?) overdrive, or it is using a slower AU Optronics panel than the VX922. Does that seem correct to you?

I think the ViewSonic does use a faster AUO panel but from the tests it doesn't really seem like it. NEC may be putting the overdrive on more.

Am I understanding these tests properly? I appreciate your great insight xtknight, it has already been very valuable!!

My pleasure...

For broader needs but still being Gaming capable, it seems the 20WGX2 would be the best monitor, but so far I think the VX922 would be the #2 monitor, with the 90GX2 as #3. Thoughts? For my particular scenario where only high-speed (low quality) rendering is critical, it seems the VX922 is the ideal monitor. I appreciate your feedback!

If you were going for a 'fast' gaming monitor, I would go with the 90GX2. Pretty much the only reason the VX922 is even up there is because some people don't like the glossy coating of the 90GX2, it is too expensive, or because it may simply not be available.

 

[samduhman]

I did one more comparison test tonight with all 4 monitors which include the Samsung 215tw, Samsung 173T, Dell laptop I9300, and Samsung 950p 19"crt. I was wrong. All 3 lcds ghost just a tad in UT2004. I believe the first time I compared them I didn't notice it as much on the I9300 or 173T because they are smaller screens and the ghosting wasn't as obvious. That made me feel better about the 215tw. Im still going to return it. Its tearing me up to give up such a great looking monitor but I don't think I'd ever be totally happy with it especially at the price I paid. If it was $300 then I'd wouldn't give it a second thought. But at $550......nah.

So with that I'd highly recommend the 215tw to any "casual gamer" who doesn't mind a little ghosting in a fast paced fps.

So Im back on the search.....uggghhhhh! I may give the 90gx2 another look even though I complained about the glare the first time I saw it in Microcenter. I was such a dolt! I didn't even realize my I9300 laptop has a similar glare screen and it doesn't bother me a home or the lan party I attend so glare shouldn't be an issue. I'd like to also look at the vx2025 widescreen one more time but Im afraid I may run into the same UT2004 ghosting problem I ran into with the 215tw.

Anyone try UT2004 on a vx2025 yet?

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Originally posted by: samduhman
I did one more comparison test tonight with all 4 monitors which include the Samsung 215tw, Samsung 173T, Dell laptop I9300, and Samsung 950p 19"crt. I was wrong. All 3 lcds ghost just a tad in UT2004. I believe the first time I compared them I didn't notice it as much on the I9300 or 173T because they are smaller screens and the ghosting wasn't as obvious. That made me feel better about the 215tw. Im still going to return it. Its tearing me up to give up such a great looking monitor but I don't think I'd ever be totally happy with it especially at the price I paid. If it was $300 then I'd wouldn't give it a second thought. But at $550......nah.

So with that I'd highly recommend the 215tw to any "casual gamer" who doesn't mind a little ghosting in a fast paced fps.

So Im back on the search.....uggghhhhh! I may give the 90gx2 another look even though I complained about the glare the first time I saw it in Microcenter. I was such a dolt! I didn't even realize my I9300 laptop has a similar glare screen and it doesn't bother me a home or the lan party I attend so glare shouldn't be an issue. I'd like to also look at the vx2025 widescreen one more time but Im afraid I may run into the same UT2004 ghosting problem I ran into with the 215tw.

Anyone try UT2004 on a vx2025 yet?

The perfect LCD doesnt exsist, I found you take the good with the bad and you go with what works best for you. They all have flaws so IMHO its about balancing out what you can stand with and what you cant. I am keeping my 215tw cause it works well for me in WoW and Far Cry. I havent seen any ghosting in those game but they arent as fast paced as things like UT etc. I just hope that down the road it doesnt suck if I try watching movies on it.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: samduhman
I did one more comparison test tonight with all 4 monitors which include the Samsung 215tw, Samsung 173T, Dell laptop I9300, and Samsung 950p 19"crt. I was wrong. All 3 lcds ghost just a tad in UT2004. I believe the first time I compared them I didn't notice it as much on the I9300 or 173T because they are smaller screens and the ghosting wasn't as obvious. That made me feel better about the 215tw. Im still going to return it. Its tearing me up to give up such a great looking monitor but I don't think I'd ever be totally happy with it especially at the price I paid. If it was $300 then I'd wouldn't give it a second thought. But at $550......nah.

So with that I'd highly recommend the 215tw to any "casual gamer" who doesn't mind a little ghosting in a fast paced fps.

So Im back on the search.....uggghhhhh! I may give the 90gx2 another look even though I complained about the glare the first time I saw it in Microcenter. I was such a dolt! I didn't even realize my I9300 laptop has a similar glare screen and it doesn't bother me a home or the lan party I attend so glare shouldn't be an issue. I'd like to also look at the vx2025 widescreen one more time but Im afraid I may run into the same UT2004 ghosting problem I ran into with the 215tw.

Anyone try UT2004 on a vx2025 yet?

Ghosting as in the texture-blurring? Maybe, less so on the VX2025, and that problem will not occur on TNs because they are fast even in the 'subtle' transitions. I don't find the effect bothersome at all though to be honest but to also be honest I'm not a huge gamer anymore.

Run through my ghosting test. Move this image in a circular pattern and see if the effect is undesirable: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/blur1.bmp

That's probably worst case scenario right there for the VA and IPS screens. It certainly is for my VP930b at least and I hardly ever, ever see ghosting that bad. But it gives the overdrive chip its 'ass on a plate', so to say.

An NEC 20WMGX2 user said that pic was no worse than normal, which is a really good sign.

 

[DangerDave]

Is the Samsung 940b better than the Viewsonic vx922 in any tests, you know besides response time? I'm trying to decide between the two.

 

[darXoul]

OK, guys, a very brief update:

I bought the 90GX2. The 20WGX2 didn't convince me in terms of size. I also had the chance to run Q3 on both, and the widescreen, while not worse in the ghosting area, showed clearly higher motion blur than the 90GX2. Therefore, I chose the TN display, although even a few weeks ago, I didn't think it would be possible.

As for the VX922, it really has worse viewing angles than 90GX2. I don't know if it's OptiClear (I doubt it) but the 90GX2 really doesn't behave like a typical large TN display in terms of angles, especially vertically.

 

[Starbuck1975]

darXoul, I would be interested in hearing your review of the 90GX2, particularly with regards to the glare from the opticlear coating.

I realize that the VX922 has a faster response time, but that is all relative...so long as there is no ghosting on the 90GX2, it becomes comperable to the VX922 in terms of gaming performance.

I have viewed the VX922 & 90GX2 side by side, and the color intensity and clarity of the 90GX2 was noticeably different...even under the lighting of the store I was in, the glare wasn't that apparent.

The VX922 certainly didn't look terrible, and head on, its color intensity and clarity was comperable to the 90GX2...until you change the viewing angle, after which the LCD effect became fairly evident.

Anyway, to get back on track, would be interested in hearing just how bad the glare is in day to day operation in terms of being a distraction.

 

[darXoul]

I'll get back to you after I finally assemble all my new parts (I have them but no time to put my new rig together) and play some games / watch movies.

As for OptiClear, I can tell you - it's like a mirror, way more so than my CRT. In a brightly lit room, especially with a light source behind you, it can be distracting. Otherwise, it's no issue. I'm used to play games and watch movies in very dim light or darkened room so the glossy coating shouldn't bother me. It did look a bit scary in store but in my friend's apartment, it looks just fine. Sure, there were reflections visible on dark backgrounds but there was a source of pretty bright light up behind me.

I'll let you know what I think after I do some real world testing (I'll post a brief review of the monitor here) but OptiClear should be fine. Not too difficult to minimize its drawbacks, and the advantage is visible (image really does look crisper).

As for VX922 vs. 90GX2, I don't think there is a perceptible difference in response time.

 

[glc650]

Hey guys,

I think I've narrowed my search down to the Samsung 204T and ViewSonic VP2030b.

It will be replacing an aging Mitsubishi 2040u 22" CRT. I need something that's easy on the eyes and provides clear, crisp text. I will not be gaming, watching movies, or editing video/photos on this monitor. It is strictly for websurfing, email, and console work (HyperTerminal and telnet).

TIA>
-g.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: darXoul
As for VX922 vs. 90GX2, I don't think there is a perceptible difference in response time.

But you did say the 20WMGX2 had a noticeably higher motion blur/ghosting effect? Interesting given the images on lesnumeriques.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: darXoul
As for VX922 vs. 90GX2, I don't think there is a perceptible difference in response time.

But you did say the 20WMGX2 had a noticeably higher motion blur/ghosting effect? Interesting given the images on lesnumeriques.

Yeah, looking at those, I think the 20WMGX2 is clearly superior to the 90GX2 when displaying motion, unless the camera is lying.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: xtknight
But you did say the 20WMGX2 had a noticeably higher motion blur/ghosting effect? Interesting given the images on lesnumeriques.

Ghosting looks the same. Blur looks worse in Q3 on the 20WGX2.

 

[samduhman]

As some of you know I've been on the hunt for a replacement "gaming" lcd for my crt. A thought recently crossed my mind of who should know what a good gaming lcd is. The answer, professional gaming pc builders. Alienware, FalconNW, Voodoopc, etc. So I went to their websites and checked which lcds they offered with their high end gaming pcs. Not surprisingly it looks like these companies can't decide on the same models either . One company I really wanted to see was FalconNW but their site wouldn't load. I also only looked at the 19" and 20" offerings since most of us aren't buying the monster lcds for gaming. If you can get FalconNW to load please add their lcd recommendations. I did this to further research of what I should buy and for fun so take what you want from it.

Alienware
Samsungs
204b
940bf
920n

Voodoopc
Samsungs
214T
940b

Viciouspc
Viewsonic
VP2030b
VA1912bwb

Velocity
NEC
2070nx
1970GX
Philips
200W
190S

Thats it. I couldn't think of any other popular gaming pc builders. List any I forgot. Am I correct in thinking most of these lcds have been replaced with newer models recently?

 

[xtknight]

I'm not completely sure, but here are my thoughts:

Samsung 204b: not the fastest, but a decent choice.
Samsung 940bf: undesirable overdrive effects.
Samsung 920n: analog? blah...

Samsung 214t: bad choice for gaming
Samsung 940b: a little faster than the 204b
ViewSonic VP2030b: decent choice
ViewSonic VA1912wb: probably a great choice

NEC 2070NX: S-IPS with no overdrive I believe... bad choice.
NEC 1970GX: decent choice
Philips 200W(6CS?): okay, but probably not that fast.
Philips 190S(6FG?): probably a great choice

Bundling the ViewSonic VX922, VP2030b, and VX2025WM LCDs would probably have been better than any of those and possibly more economic than some of those.

 

[xtknight]

Judgment day... Samsung 215TW vs. ViewSonic VX2025WM.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: glc1
Hey guys,

I think I've narrowed my search down to the Samsung 204T and ViewSonic VP2030b.

It will be replacing an aging Mitsubishi 2040u 22" CRT. I need something that's easy on the eyes and provides clear, crisp text. I will not be gaming, watching movies, or editing video/photos on this monitor. It is strictly for websurfing, email, and console work (HyperTerminal and telnet).

TIA>
-g.

I'd say the VP2030b. It has a lower response time than the 204T and should be the same in everything else.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Judgment day... Samsung 215TW vs. ViewSonic VX2025WM.

Muahahah 215tw FTW? At least on viewing angles lol.

 

[samduhman]

Since I can't read french (?) Im going by the pictures and it looks like the vx2025wm is the better of the two as far as ghosting is concerned. Am I correct or am I looking at teh tests wrong?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: samduhman
Since I can't read french (?) Im going by the pictures and it looks like the vx2025wm is the better of the two as far as ghosting is concerned. Am I correct or am I looking at teh tests wrong?

That's the way it looks to me too. P-MVA panels have traditionally been faster than S-PVAs even without overdrive anyway. The P-MVA may help your situation in a way they didn't measure (dark transitions). It could reduce those by up to 20 ms. from its 70 ms (guessing) or so on the 215TW.

 

[samduhman]

I ordered a vx2025wm. If im not happy with FPSers on this then I guess that leaves me with the 90gx2, VX922 or........

Have you seen this yet?

LG L1970HR

They seem to have an exclusive with Best Buy right now and BB is completely sold out online and all my local stores. I read in another forum thats because they are flying off the shelves. I love how it folds down. GREAT for lan parties but I also wonder how sturdy it is because of that ablility.

Its speculated that its the same panel thats on the 90gx2 but without the glare coating.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp

Originally posted by: xtknight
Judgment day... Samsung 215TW vs. ViewSonic VX2025WM.

Muahahah 215tw FTW? At least on viewing angles lol.

Odd most Samsung PVA panels usually look bad on viewing angles too. I have seen the Viewsonic 2025 in person and I back up the viewing angle issue. This was part of the reason I sold my Dell 2405 (PVA panel) and the viewsonic seems just as bad. I haven't seen the 215tw in person.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Originally posted by: guidryp

Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp

Originally posted by: xtknight
Judgment day... Samsung 215TW vs. ViewSonic VX2025WM.

Muahahah 215tw FTW? At least on viewing angles lol.

Odd most Samsung PVA panels usually look bad on viewing angles too. I have seen the Viewsonic 2025 in person and I back up the viewing angle issue. This was part of the reason I sold my Dell 2405 (PVA panel) and the viewsonic seems just as bad. I haven't seen the 215tw in person.

The Samsung 204b is HORRIBLE for viewing angles the 215tw I am very happy with. The things they show on that site I dont really get, cause I dont see any ghosting motion blur etc etc when I game on mine. I dont play things like Quake and BF2 so its hard for me to say its a perfect monitor. The games I do playm, like WoW 99.9999% and then Far Cry the monitor runs flawless.