LCD Buyer's Guide

[Ripwalk]

im looking to buy a lcd tv mostly for gaming, and i'm having a hard time trying to find the westinghouse or the sceptre naga in canada. can somebody please point me to whare i could possibly order these from that ships to canada? tnx.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Originally posted by: Loque
I am not a widescreen convert either. I just wish there were more panel options available in 1600x1200 (or even 19"), especially a decent AS-IPS equivalent (preferably non-glossy) to the NEC 20WGX2 or at least a S-IPS without banding. I think you were looking for something along these lines too, guidryp?

I noticed this new and very positive review of the IPS-based LG L2000C at Les Numeriques: http://www.lesnumeriques.com/article-203-1109-35.html. No mention of banding. The new review also seemed to find the LG to be fairly responsive. But I am confused about the panel and specs of this model: many sources show the LG having the same panel as the 2000FP, except LG rates its model at a lower 8ms and Les Numeriques makes the L2000C out to be the 'first' 1600x1200 IPS at this faster speed. Similarly strange, are the specs of the new IPS BenQ FP2092 (12ms g2g, 700:1, 420 cd/m2) which many sources also say has the same panel as the 2000FP.

Until this gets sorted, or Dell releases a 2000FP revision with IPS but without banding, I've been looking at TN models which have not been entirely satisfactory. I may check out a 930P or 2030b given all the good press.

The more compromises and problems I see in LCDs, the more I *really* look forward to SED monitors...

Yeah no convert to wide for a general purpose monitor at all. A 1920x1200 would be fine, but a 1600x1200 just has so many more pixels than a 1680x1050 and is nearly as wide anyway. People keep talking about doing pages side by side on a 20" wide like it can't be done on a 1600x1200 which is nonsense. Here is a screen cap of PDF viewer showing facing pages. IMO 1600x1200 does it better. There is already space left over on the sides. 1200 lines of height translate into the text actually being readable on the 1600x1200 screen. http://i.pbase.com/o4/04/606404/1/59792622.facing.png

Here is the PDF if anyone want to demo the superior side by side of the widescreen: http://www2.p4c.philips.com/files/2/230wp7ns_00/230wp7ns_00_pss_eng.pdf


Unfortunately,Some reviewers just don't check banding. Most indications are that there is quite active banding on this one. From users and one review.

But at this point it would be a lesser of evils situation. Banding occurs sometime, but poor viewing angles of PVA/MVA happens all the time. If I could exchange my Dell 2007fp (PVA) for the S-IPS panel with more banding I would do it. As is, it is going back for a refund and I have to keep looking. The LG L2000C is not available in Canada for some reason. Dell will never revert to S-IPS. All indications are that PVA is cheaper, so PVA it will stay. Most users don't know the difference.

I would not trust the BenQ FP2092, as this panel list indicates it is PVA. I trust this list because it seems to be more accurate more of the time. It was the only one to mention the Dell switch to PVA in 2007fp and they mentioned it before anyone reported having one. This is the same panel in the Dell 2007fp I have in front of me. No Thanks.
http://aryarya.net/wassyoi/lcdmemo.html
BenQ FP2091 = 20.1 inch 16 ms S-IPS (LG.Philips LM201U04) panel.
BenQ FP2092 = 20.1 inch 12 ms (g2g) S-PVA (Samsung LTM201U1-L01) panel.

Here is where we can expect new gen 1600x1200 S-IPS: I think we can count on 3 choices. LG, Philips, NEC, unsure about HP/Sony.
LG L2000C
Philips 200P7EB
NEC ??
HP ??
Sony ??

Forget SED, OLED is more likely. SED is delayed until 2008 and only coming in 55" monitors. Doubtfull it will ever make it into computer monitors.
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=181502058

OLED is an emmissive technology which means, perfect black is possible. There should be no viewing angle anomolies, since there is no polarizer and wierd light blocking issues. Zero light bleeding or the like. Even speed is supposed to be under 1ms.

Either way it will probably be 2010 before we see any real alternative to LCD monitors for computers. Find a good S-IPS and hang on...

 

[imported_Loque]

That is depressing news about the timeline for SEDs and OLEDs. Others seem more hopeful about SED though, so I'm curious why, guidryp, you say SED computer monitors are unlikely to be produced.

Banding is not necessarily a deal breaker for me either. You are inevitably making some compromise with an LCD: color shifting, poor interpolation, high glare screen, shimmering and noise in video, banding, etc. Moreover, of the LCDs I have looked at in the past 2 weeks the L1970HR and VX922 had definite banding, the 950B had slight banding, while only the 204B (and my little IBM X41 LCD!) did not have any significant banding.

I did find Custom PC's review of the L2000C with the report of banding that you and xtknight are probably referring to. I guess I was hoping that no mention of banding in the Les Numeriques review meant it was not terribly prominent. Either way I am in Canada too so ordering an L2000C, though possible, would be tricky and returning one would be nearly impossible. I would still love to try an IPS based 2007FP but it seems that all the new units ordered through Dell.ca are PVA like yours, so getting an IPS will be difficult (at least until Dell starts re-selling all the returned units). As for the FP2092, I guess we will have to wait for confirmation on the panel. Flatpanels.dk claims an IPS panel and BenQ advertises 178/178 viewing angles, but who knows.

I hope new IPS models come out soon. If not I've actually considered trying one of the old LM201U04 based units. You can't buy a 2001FP new in Canada but Ramstore.ca sells the FP2091 much cheaper than Dell and there are some VP201b units around. The NEC 2070NX is also available here through ca.buy.com with 30 day return policy. Trying models like these may be a step backwards but can anyone explain the basic limitations of the older 16ms IPS models? Sure they don't have the deepest blacks or 99999 cd/m2 brightness that just cause me to turn down brightness to 20%, but at least these models had exceptional viewing angles and accurate color with no banding. Maybe ghosting would be a problem but I'm not very sensitive to ghosting since I had no problem when I played UT2004 on an old 16ms TN type LG 1710b.

 

[Heartbreaker]

That is depressing news about the timeline for SEDs and OLEDs. Others seem more hopeful about SED though, so I'm curious why, guidryp, you say SED computer monitors are unlikely to be produced.

A lot of people put wishfull thinking into their speculations. I don't . With a release target of the middle of 2008 and only at 55" size it is obvious that computer monitors are a long way off (if ever). I am inclined to believe they will never bother trying to make that transition. Computer monitors under $1000 mean they have production down pat and have capacity to spare. Considering the delays and difficulties getting to market at all, I don't think this will happen anytime soon. I think very cheap OLED/LCD will keep them out of that market in the 2010 timeframe.

I did find Custom PC's review of the L2000C with the report of banding that you and xtknight are probably referring to. I guess I was hoping that no mention of banding in the Les Numeriques review meant it was not terribly prominent. Either way I am in Canada too so ordering an L2000C, though possible, would be tricky and returning one would be nearly impossible. I would still love to try an IPS based 2007FP but it seems that all the new units ordered through Dell.ca are PVA like yours, so getting an IPS will be difficult (at least until Dell starts re-selling all the returned units). As for the FP2092, I guess we will have to wait for confirmation on the panel. Flatpanels.dk claims an IPS panel and BenQ advertises 178/178 viewing angles, but who knows.

Dell also claims this viewing angle for the 2007fp (PVA) that I have. Maker claims mean nothing.

I hope new IPS models come out soon. If not I've actually considered trying one of the old LM201U04 based units. You can't buy a 2001FP new in Canada but Ramstore.ca sells the FP2091 much cheaper than Dell and there are some VP201b units around. The NEC 2070NX is also available here through ca.buy.com with 30 day return policy. Trying models like these may be a step backwards but can anyone explain the basic limitations of

I would look at prev generation, If it was a very good price (<$500), but otherwise I will wait with my crappy CRT.

The Canadian dollar is only expected to keep going up and for Canadian inventories time will be needed for the strength of the dollar to work its way through the system. Not to mention that monitor prices continue to come down.

The new LG or new Philips may do the trick whenever they get to Canada. I am not fond of waiting, but I want a decent S-IPS panel as the lesser of evils in LCD panels.

 

[nova2]

Originally posted by: Keeir
Situation: I have the results of a IT survey at a company where 108 Viewsonic (fairly good) CRTs were replaced with Dell 1905 20ms monitors

-snip-
My own observation is that the Monitor does ghost
In ghosts in several CAD programs very noticably because of the unfortunate choice of background color several make. It ghosts in FEA work and it ghosts in office work. But, most of the people didn't seem to mind

yeah. again it all comes down to the person.

I, for example, game with a 1905FP, games like quake 3, call of duty 2, homeworld 2, are all definitely playable to me, and I don't get motion sick (do note that I force 75hz at 1024x768 and not 60hz).

I tend to notice ghosting the most in homeworld 2, while it doesn't effect my skills, I would of course prefer no ghosting

 

[ickingfudiot]

Originally posted by: farp96
Yeah the only thing I don't like is the price. I can get it for about $480. And for that their's alot of 8 bit as well as 21 inch lcd's for the same price or even less....

Where can you get the 20wmgx2 for $480?

 

[cmge]

Originally posted by: ickingfudiot

Originally posted by: farp96
Yeah the only thing I don't like is the price. I can get it for about $480. And for that their's alot of 8 bit as well as 21 inch lcd's for the same price or even less....

Where can you get the 20wmgx2 for $480?

id like to know as well....

farp: care to share your little secret?...

 

[DangerDave]

xtknight, you should update the prices on these monitors; price is a big factor for most people. The 90GX2 is only $380 now. Shoot, the ViewSonic VX922 is only $270. These things are just getting ridiculously cheap.

 

[MarkShot]

Suppose you just got a new LCD. Is there a standard self test suite you can step through in order to evaluate the monitor and make sure things are working right and you are happy with it?

Thanks.

 

[Slickone]

I've been using my Acer AL1916ASD (6 bit) for 2 weeks now, but I think I'm going to return it. I hate to after getting a good deal on it. But even after 2 weeks, I just can't get used to it. It's just too bright, unless you turn it down so far that white becomes a dark dirty/off-white, grey/yellow.
The graphics aren't as sharp looking as my CRT, including text, which strains my eyes more than my CRT. I do have Cleartype on. I am using the analog input, but some have said, that are running 2 of these LCDs and comparing side by side analog/digital, there's little to no difference they noticed.
The colors aren't near as vibrant as my CRT. Everything looks very washed out. Is that, or any of this, just because it's a 6 bit LCD, because it's a lower quality LCD panel (or both), or this what any LCD is going to look like?

As some have said in various threads on here, I think many people are overwhelmed by the cool factor of a flat panel and just don't realize the picture is likely inferior to their CRT, assuming they had a good quality CRT. Or don't want to admit they took a step backward after spending the money on the LCD.

I took some pictures of my screens with my camera. A crude method, yes, but it proves the picture differences, at least with this LCD. And the difference is much more dramatic in real life than what the pictures can show. The camera made the CRT a little less sharp. I took this at 50/50 brightness/contrast on the LCD. If the whole pic doesn't fit your screen, scroll to near the bottom right of each picture. Open each in a separate window, line the pics up and A-B them. BTW, my CRT is a Sony GDM-400PS (aperature grill).

CRT:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2338/housecrt8jm.jpg
LCD:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2182/houselcd0nf.jpg



Also it has a light fringing problem on the edges. Especially at the top middle, mine goes out at least 1/2" on black screens. Many that got this model reported this. Does this occur with any LCD? It's annoying. And black isn't black.

And it's pretty sensitive to viewing angle.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I agree slick. A good CRT is still better overall, I went though the overbrightness and eye strain/pain the whole time I had my Dell 2405. I sold it as there was technically nothing wrong with it. It just didn't work for me. One other thing was the viewing angle sensitivity which is quite bad on other than S-IPS panels. Next I tried to buy a S-IPS panel, but ended up with another PVA. :-(

On the viewing angle sensitivity:
I put together this test of the repeated info across the screen to demonstrate how easily PVA panel shift tones with only small movements:
http://i.pbase.com/o4/04/606404/1/59690548.1920Shadow.jpg


I planned to do a head on(before) shot and an off angle shot (after) to show what PVA does. Something Like this the compares at Behardware.

My test on a Dell 2007fp (S-PVA). Turns out I only needed one photo. My before shot was probably off center by a bit and off angle a bit. The result. Maybe 5 degrees off angle. And large tone shifts already.
http://i.pbase.com/o4/04/606404/1/59768645.PVA_Shadow.jpg

Looking at it now I probably get a double wammy, since I havent't returned my Dell screen yet. But regardless of screen type you view the picture on, you should be able to see that PVA/MVA technology has significant viewing angle issues. Do yourself a favor and look for a S-IPS screen. It is worth the extra money. Or if you have a good CRT (your case), just stick with that.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: DangerDave
xtknight, you should update the prices on these monitors; price is a big factor for most people. The 90GX2 is only $380 now. Shoot, the ViewSonic VX922 is only $270. These things are just getting ridiculously cheap.

Thanks for letting me know. I've run through the whole list and updated them.

Originally posted by: MarkShot
Suppose you just got a new LCD. Is there a standard self test suite you can step through in order to evaluate the monitor and make sure things are working right and you are happy with it?

Thanks.

There's a plethora of tests but the most important thing is how it performs for your needs. But you can always load up gradients to check for banding and color accuracy, and move the mouse across the gradient to test for ghosting/blur issues across different colors. If you're using DVI, geometry and focus will already be perfect.

Originally posted by: Slickone
I've been using my Acer AL1916ASD (6 bit) for 2 weeks now, but I think I'm going to return it. I hate to after getting a good deal on it. But even after 2 weeks, I just can't get used to it. It's just too bright, unless you turn it down so far that white becomes a dark dirty/off-white, grey/yellow.
The graphics aren't as sharp looking as my CRT, including text, which strains my eyes more than my CRT. I do have Cleartype on. I am using the analog input, but some have said, that are running 2 of these LCDs and comparing side by side analog/digital, there's little to no difference they noticed.
The colors aren't near as vibrant as my CRT. Everything looks very washed out. Is that, or any of this, just because it's a 6 bit LCD, because it's a lower quality LCD panel (or both), or this what any LCD is going to look like?

As some have said in various threads on here, I think many people are overwhelmed by the cool factor of a flat panel and just don't realize the picture is likely inferior to their CRT, assuming they had a good quality CRT. Or don't want to admit they took a step backward after spending the money on the LCD.

I took some pictures of my screens with my camera. A crude method, yes, but it proves the picture differences, at least with this LCD. And the difference is much more dramatic in real life than what the pictures can show. The camera made the CRT a little less sharp. I took this at 50/50 brightness/contrast on the LCD. If the whole pic doesn't fit your screen, scroll to near the bottom right of each picture. Open each in a separate window, line the pics up and A-B them. BTW, my CRT is a Sony GDM-400PS (aperature grill).

CRT:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2338/housecrt8jm.jpg
LCD:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2182/houselcd0nf.jpg



Also it has a light fringing problem on the edges. Especially at the top middle, mine goes out at least 1/2" on black screens. Many that got this model reported this. Does this occur with any LCD? It's annoying. And black isn't black.

And it's pretty sensitive to viewing angle.

Cliche, but you get what you pay for with LCDs. Even in this day and age, a low-end TN LCD just isn't going to compare to a high-end Trinitron and there's no way around it. Cheaper ones are the most likely to have the backlight bleeding but some expensive ones also have it. The fact it's a TN doesn't make the viewing angles anything spectacular either. You probably paid more for the Trinitron so with LCDs already having a higher base price point you just can't expect it to compare. I wouldn't make a general statement about them until I'd at least tried the VX2025WM or better yet the NEC 20WMGX2. The "bargain bin" LCDs fall into the entry-level category and are generally aimed at people who "just wanna use" the computer. You just can't get your hopes up too much. But thanks for the reference pics so people may know what to expect when going for this LCD.

Granted, and I'll be honest, even "medium-level" LCDs won't have saturation in the midtones as well as a shadow mask or Trinitron CRT. But I have gotten it calibrated so it's "pretty close", and the other advantages make me prefer the LCD.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Where can you get the 20wmgx2 for $480?

I would like to know as well, because the cheapest I can find it for is around $650 before tax and shipping.

 

[MarkShot]

Speaking of Trinitron. I have ordered a NEC 2190UXi to retire my Sony GDM-F520.

Primary reasons:

(1) The CRT is on its way out (flickering and warm up problems) and out of warrantee.

(2) After a heart attack and other surgery I can no longer carry these 85LB beasts up and down stairs (for replacement and repairs).

(3) It's not easy to find high-end CRT anymore these days.

Hopefully, I'll be happy with the new display. I am sure I will be happy with my regular 1600x1200 desktop, but I'll have to see how legacy games go in various resolutions below that.

 

[Starbuck1975]

xtknight, was wondering if you have any information on the LG 20.1" L203WT widescreen flat panel monitor.

From what I can gather from LG's website, it should use the same panel as the NEC 20WMGX2. I only ask, because the going price for the L203WT us significantly less then the NEC model. As I am specifically interested in the panel, why not go directly from the source?

EDIT: After a little more digging around on the widescreen gaming forum, apparently the LG L203WT uses a TN panel and not the LG proprietary AP-IPS panel found in the NEC 20WMGX2. I can't confirm this, but it is what some Best Buy customers are reporting, as the LG is apparently starting to show up in some stores.

I wonder if LG intends to release a 20.1" widescreen using their LM201W01 panel?

 

[JediJorgie]

Any thoughts on the Benq FP93G? Comparing it to the FP91G+, the 93 has a slightly faster response time (6 instead of 8 ms),
higher contrast ratio (700 compared to 550), and it looks like it has a slimmer bezel, which I really like. Other than that, they look
the same.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
xtknight, was wondering if you have any information on the LG 20.1" L203WT widescreen flat panel monitor.

Yes...it uses I believe a Chunghwa Picture Tubes TN panel and LG's DFC (digital fine contrast) technology. It is not an IPS or MVA/PVA type panel (contrary to popular belief).

I wonder if LG intends to release a 20.1" widescreen using their LM201W01 panel?

Unfortunately, for a while, I don't think you'll see any new LG models using this panel, because number one, this is supposedly a "special made for NEC" panel. Also, you don't tend to hear about LG Electronics that much compared to Samsung, ViewSonic, or BenQ. I'm not sure if they are targeting consumers or business.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: JediJorgie
Any thoughts on the Benq FP93G? Comparing it to the FP91G+, the 93 has a slightly faster response time (6 instead of 8 ms),
higher contrast ratio (700 compared to 550), and it looks like it has a slimmer bezel, which I really like. Other than that, they look
the same.

Don't know...I'll be sure to keep my eyes open for reviews of it.

 

[JediJorgie]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: JediJorgie
Any thoughts on the Benq FP93G? Comparing it to the FP91G+, the 93 has a slightly faster response time (6 instead of 8 ms),
higher contrast ratio (700 compared to 550), and it looks like it has a slimmer bezel, which I really like. Other than that, they look
the same.

Don't know...I'll be sure to keep my eyes open for reviews of it.

I've looked a little bit for reviews, but couldn't find any. As far as I can tell, its fairly new. I'm thinking that since the
FP91G+ is regarded as a pretty decent budget gaming LCD, the FP93G with better contrast ratio would be a better
choice. But a review would be nice.

 

[Slickone]

Originally posted by: guidryp
Looking at it now I probably get a double wammy, since I havent't returned my Dell screen yet. But regardless of screen type you view the picture on, you should be able to see that PVA/MVA technology has significant viewing angle issues. Do yourself a favor and look for a S-IPS screen. It is worth the extra money. Or if you have a good CRT (your case), just stick with that.

I returned my Acer. I feel better now. Upset it didn't work out but better since I'd been driving myself crazy for 2 weeks trying to decide whether to return it or not. So it was a TN, which is even worse than PVA/MVA, correct?

What are some good S-IPS LCD's that are 5:4? The only one(s) in the OP are 16:10, which I don't really want. And I want 8 bit. But I will be doing some gaming too. So if I can't get something fast enough that still looks good, I'll wait. I still play old games too so maybe I should just keep my CRT.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Slickone
I returned my Acer. I feel better now. Upset it didn't work out but better since I'd been driving myself crazy for 2 weeks trying to decide whether to return it or not. So it was a TN, which is even worse than PVA/MVA, correct?

For viewing angles and contrast, yes. Generally, TN is at the bottom, MVA/PVA are middle-high, and S-IPS is high quality.

What are some good S-IPS LCD's that are 5:4?

At the moment the only 8-bit fast ones I've seen have been widescreen (VX2025WM or NEC 20WMGX2).

 

[Slickone]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Slickone
What are some good S-IPS LCD's that are 5:4?

At the moment the only 8-bit fast ones I've seen have been widescreen (VX2025WM or NEC 20WMGX2).

Any word on if that should change?

 

[samduhman]

X2025mw update

Alrighty, after 4 days of gaming which included WoW, BF2, UT2K4, Oblivion Im still pretty darn happy with the VX2025. If theres ghosting then theres not enough to distract from the games. I still have a little over a week to decide whether to keep it or not but so far so good.

A couple nitpicks and questions

- Backscreen bleeding. It does exhibit the 'X" factor bleed. Is there a fix for this or is this reason enough to return it for another? I recall my Dell 9300 laptop had light bleed at the bottom of the screen. It actually went away over time. Do these type of monitors do the same thing?

- Settings. Im using a Nvidia 7900GT with this lcd. Does anyone have any recommended gamer settings for this lcd. Im tired of guessing and fidling. I can't seem to get the perfect setup.

- I reran deadpixelbuddy and did notice on the red screen one pixel was blacked out in the bottom right. During other color tests it was fine. Is this a dead pixel? I thought a dead pixel would be dead through out all tests. I only notice it in this one test so its not enough for me to return.

Thats it! Really not that bad considering Im looking for problems.

 

[imported_Septimus]

Just picked up a VX2025M - one stuck pixel in a corner that can hopefully be un-stuck but it's a great LCD. Bought it after reading this thread. Thanks!

 

[imported_Septimus]

Originally posted by: samduhman
- I reran deadpixelbuddy and did notice on the red screen one pixel was blacked out in the bottom right. During other color tests it was fine. Is this a dead pixel? I thought a dead pixel would be dead through out all tests. I only notice it in this one test so its not enough for me to return.

It could be a stuck pixel instead of a dead pixel (I have the same thing, also in the bottom right). It's about the best location for one as I have to stare right at it to notice.