LCD Buyer's Guide

[directhit]

Hi. After reading many good replies, I still have two questions about the Viewsonic VP930b:

1) Is there a difference between VP930b and VP930b-2 or is it the same LCD panel?
2) AFAIK, the display can be detached from the stand, but is it possible to disassemble the stand? I mean, the "neck frame" from the base plate.

Thanks for your help.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: directhit
Hi. After reading many good replies, I still have two questions about the Viewsonic VP930b:

Welcome to the forums.

1) Is there a difference between VP930b and VP930b-2 or is it the same LCD panel?

I'm not sure but where are you seeing a -2 for sale? In reviews, -2 is the newest, but all are sold as VP930b today.

2) AFAIK, the display can be detached from the stand, but is it possible to disassemble the stand? I mean, the "neck frame" from the base plate.

I'm pretty sure you can't.

 

[xtknight]

As for the NEC's scaling options, apparently the "expansion" settings only function in DVI-HDCP mode. I don't have a graphics card that supports HDCP, or any devices that do for that matter. The NEC can still scale resolutions but you're stuck with it filling the whole screen unless you have an NVIDIA card where it sends a centered signal. That said, the scaling quality of this monitor is pretty amazing. I'd say virtual terminal text in 640x480 mode looks as good or sharper than a CRT scaling it. Keep in mind, this has a native res of 1680x1050.

Actually the 100% brightness is starting to feel tough on the eyes. Not to the extent my VP930b did though. My eyes would burn if I looked at the VP930b for two minutes in the high brightness mode. With this it took much longer.

 

[Low Radiation]

Thanx, xtknight!

I was in a HUGE dilemma 'cause of that extremely high brightness, but now i finally decided. I'm ordering 20wgx2
You could also write how it behaves when you turn down the brightness and stuff like that....

 

[xtknight]

Yea, the brightness really isn't that bad at all in standard DV mode. Very comfortable to use, more so than my VP930b I'd say. I still have lots of tweaking to do. I still don't see any dithering or dead pixels.

Now, one thing I did notice: the previous posters were right. I can't discern the first 6 or so black levels from each other in any setting! And in some cases I'd say it's about the first 13 I can't tell. Oh well. It isn't keeping this from being a great monitor. I just will have to remember not to recommend it for photo editing because of that. I can still see more details in the black than my old monitor, even with the first 11 invisible. Amazing.

I'm very happy with the amount I paid for it. I don't know if I'd pay over $700 for this screen (perhaps up to $750), but I feel like an absolute fool for ever spending $450 on a VP930b. Then again, I'd feel stupid for spending $1000 on a 5 MB hard disk 20 years ago too, but what can I say, technology changes. The 20WMGX2 was $630 shipped from Newegg. Never had a dead pixel from Newegg. Gotta love 'em.

 

[directhit]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Welcome to the forums.

Glad to be here. BTW, congrats on your new 20WMGX2!

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: directhit

1) Is there a difference between VP930b and VP930b-2 or is it the same LCD panel?

I'm not sure but where are you seeing a -2 for sale? In reviews, -2 is the newest, but all are sold as VP930b today.

I did a search on Amazon and I got a VP930b and a VP930B-2 (check "Item model number" under "Product Details.") Also, this search on Super Warehouse shows both.

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: directhit

2) AFAIK, the display can be detached from the stand, but is it possible to disassemble the stand? I mean, the "neck frame" from the base plate.

I'm pretty sure you can't.

Ok, but I don't want to give up. I was thinking ... if the stand has an US Patent number maybe I can get a diagram of it on the USPTO site. Thanks for your answers.

 

[Spikey217]

Any console gamers here with the NEC 20WMGX2? I've been using it mainly for the PC but I had a chance to plug in my PS2 now (component cables) and I must say that it looks weird. It's hard to describe but it just doesn't look that good. There are noticable horizontal scanlines of sorts during black screens. Some games tend to look better than others. The FF12 demo that came with DragonQuest VIII looks good. DragonQuest VIII itself looks decent. Gran Turismo 4 however looks really bad. Is this normal for a LCD monitor?

 

[doodler85]

Just got my 215TW a few days ago... set it up...

Wow. Beautiful monitor!

I have it next to my old LG L1710S 17", and the screen height is basically the same. The width, however, is something to be admired. I run out of desk space when mousing from left to right

Visually, it looks great. I can only do subjective tests, but colors looked right except for yellows, which were either lacking in my old screen or may be a little too pronounced in this one. I suspect that my old screens merely lacked the range of color that this one has (this issue was only present in unbalanced tungsten-lit photos).

I hear that some of these monitors die after a few weeks of use, so I'll keep everyone posted. I haven't gamed on it yet or watched many movies, but I have no regrets thus far

 

[Bob the Koala]

Hey xtnight, first I'd like to say its great what you have done with this tread finding reviews/info on LCD's is incredibly difficult.

I've recently started looking to buy an lcd (first one) and I'm torn between budget or quality. Primary use would be gaming and web browsing, I don't want a res any bigger than 1280x1024 so limited to 17"-19" preferably 17" smaller dot pitch. I'm currently looking at the BenQ 17" FP73G seems to have best specs for under $300 Australian, could you tell me if it's any good? Or should I just go all out and get the NEC 70GX2 but at $600+ (aud) is expensive for a 17".

Could you give me a list of 17"-19" that you would recommend for gaming, keeping IQ in mind not just strictly speed, price no issue. Aswell could you list what you regard the best budget gaming lcd's for under $350 aud. Thanks

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Spikey217
Any console gamers here with the NEC 20WMGX2? I've been using it mainly for the PC but I had a chance to plug in my PS2 now (component cables) and I must say that it looks weird. It's hard to describe but it just doesn't look that good. There are noticable horizontal scanlines of sorts during black screens. Some games tend to look better than others. The FF12 demo that came with DragonQuest VIII looks good. DragonQuest VIII itself looks decent. Gran Turismo 4 however looks really bad. Is this normal for a LCD monitor?

I don't have any consoles I could hook up at the moment but I do have an HDTV tuner with composite output. I'll tell you how that turns out by later in the afternoon today.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

xtknight,

How tolerable is the tearing on the 20WMGX2 w/o vsync? I would imagine that unless one has Crossfire/SLI, 1680x1050 @ 60Hz with vsync enabled is going to induce some serious jerkiness in newer games.

Is there no way to get this monitor to run at 75Hz?

 

[ViRGE]

Hey xt, what do you know about image scaling with ATI parts? I just swapped out the 6800 for a X1900, and I'm having trouble getting the video card to do to the scaling.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Bob the Koala
Hey xtnight, first I'd like to say its great what you have done with this tread finding reviews/info on LCD's is incredibly difficult.

I think Google needs to have a hardware review search (like they have a specialized Linux search for example). All you get is those pricegrabber sites with reviews by Grandma.

I've recently started looking to buy an lcd (first one) and I'm torn between budget or quality. Primary use would be gaming and web browsing, I don't want a res any bigger than 1280x1024 so limited to 17"-19" preferably 17" smaller dot pitch. I'm currently looking at the BenQ 17" FP73G seems to have best specs for under $300 Australian, could you tell me if it's any good? Or should I just go all out and get the NEC 70GX2 but at $600+ (aud) is expensive for a 17".

Could you give me a list of 17"-19" that you would recommend for gaming, keeping IQ in mind not just strictly speed, price no issue. Aswell could you list what you regard the best budget gaming lcd's for under $350 aud. Thanks

Well I'm quite partial to NEC now. The DV modes and response time control are awesome. That (70GX2) does sound expensive so I'll try to give you some other options.

Can you get any of these at a decent price?

Samsung 940BF? What about the LG high-contrast LCDs? I highly recommend all of those. I have my doubts that the VP930b is superior in color quality to the 940BF/LG LCDs. The gamma on the ViewSonics disappoints me.

What about that Samsung 931C that had the high gamut CCFL light? OK, I may be jumping the gun a bit here, but seriously, if you can get a look at that thing somewhere, I'd say that's an awesome deal for good IQ right there. It sounds almost perfect for you. Definitely a TN with a fast response. I'd take the chance on that any day before the VP930b, but that's just me.

I just find the light too dang bright on the VP930b now that I've seen other LCDs (even my old Samsung 17" at least wasn't overbright and still great for general usage). It took me a while to realize it, but it's just ugh. MVAs at a size of 19" are simply too bright. Too bad because that's really the only thing wrong with it. Not that the response time control was staggering but it was certainly usable. Anyhow, that's why I recommend the other LCDs over the VP930b.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
xtknight,

How tolerable is the tearing on the 20WMGX2 w/o vsync?

I don't think it's worse than any other monitor. I notice no tearing when moving windows around. Without VSync I'm not sure. I don't game much at all, and additionally when I do I always use VSync so I wouldn't be able to tell you if it was worse than other monitors. Just wondering...did you hear the 20WMGX2 tore a lot or something? I don't think this varies much per monitor (but the NEC LCD2070NX seemed to be worse in non-native). With the LCD's DSP doing 640x480 scaling, I still notice no tearing moving windows around.

I would imagine that unless one has Crossfire/SLI, 1680x1050 @ 60Hz with vsync enabled is going to induce some serious jerkiness in newer games.

Could you clarify the problem with Crossfire and VSync?

Is there no way to get this monitor to run at 75Hz?

Not at 1680x1050 native at least. It doesn't have anything to do with VGA/DVI either if you wondered. It's just simply out of the monitor's sync range.

I'll probably get around to testing Battlefield 2 just for the hell of it. If I notice any severely unusual tearing with VSync off I'll let you know. Tearing is probably worse with LCDs than CRTs for a number of reasons, but varies little among LCDs.

Ranges for this monitor as reported by EDID (unless it's being read wrongly):

HorizSync [kHz] 30.0 - 110.0
VertRefresh [Hz] 50.0 - 150.0

But they really don't want you running over 60 Hz it seems. Perhaps it screws with the overdrive. I don't feel like forcing it over though. Even with the ranges in my video config, I still never see it go over 60 Hz so it's a lost cause.

From the specs:

640 x 480 @ 60 Hz
800 x 600 @ 56 Hz to 60 Hz
1024 x 768 @ 60 Hz
1280 x 768 @ 60 Hz
1280 x 1024 @ 60 Hz
1440 x 1050 @ 60 Hz
1680 x 1050 @ 60 Hz

Synchronization Range:
31.5-81.1 KHz
56-60 Hz

Which is quite a far cry from what the EDID is reporting. If you have any other questions be sure to let me know.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
Hey xt, what do you know about image scaling with ATI parts? I just swapped out the 6800 for a X1900, and I'm having trouble getting the video card to do to the scaling.

I've never used an ATI card with an LCD at other than native so I'm really not sure. I could have sworn they had options to do it on the video card. If they don't, I find that hard to believe and they better get it in the drivers ASAP. :Q

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Thanks for the reply.

Originally posted by: xtknight

Could you clarify the problem with Crossfire and VSync?

Not any problem, just that you'd need some serious horsepower to get high framerates (40-50 fps) with vsync on at 60Hz. Even with a CRT running at 85Hz, framerates would take a noticeable dive when vsync was enabled (Brothers in Arms would go from ~40 fps down to ~30 fps for example). At 100Hz the performance drop was far less, but the picture quality was awful.

Another poster has told me that there is pronounced tearing in games w/o vsync (namely BF2), but has found that enabling triple buffering pushes the framerate up to a more acceptable level when vsync is on, so that fewer frames are lost between refresh signals.

 

[CP5670]

In the case of SLI, vsync often doesn't work. The tearing drove me nuts at 110hz on a CRT (much worse than on a single card) and I'm guessing it would be worse at the 60hz that LCDs use.

xtknight, it seems that you like the coating as much as I do. I hope it becomes more widespread in the future.

I've never used an ATI card with an LCD at other than native so I'm really not sure. I could have sworn they had options to do it on the video card. If they don't, I find that hard to believe and they better get it in the drivers ASAP.

As far as I know, they don't. The monitor has to do the scaling.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Spikey217
Any console gamers here with the NEC 20WMGX2? I've been using it mainly for the PC but I had a chance to plug in my PS2 now (component cables) and I must say that it looks weird. It's hard to describe but it just doesn't look that good. There are noticable horizontal scanlines of sorts during black screens. Some games tend to look better than others. The FF12 demo that came with DragonQuest VIII looks good. DragonQuest VIII itself looks decent. Gran Turismo 4 however looks really bad. Is this normal for a LCD monitor?

My HD tuner looks great on the component input. You are talking component not composite right?

Sure you don't have advanced DVM on? That can cause odd lines sometimes as it transitions between contrast. Adjust sharpness too (to something lower probably). Just try messing with everything.

 

[Low Radiation]

OK, now the dust settled down, you tweaked it....tell us more, XT
When you turn down the brightness to some normal ,level, how does it look? is white still white? Is contrast good enough? How good are the colours?

 

[middlepath]

xtknight,

I've been following your recommendations for a few months now and I recenty noticed that you introduced the NEC 2070NX as best for photo editing. Since photo editing is what I'm primarily interested in, and at an affordable price, the NEC sounds good.

Out of curiosity I searched other forums for their take on good monitors and I stumbled upon the Shutterbug forum. Someone posted the reply below to your NEC 2070NX recommendation. Do you agree with him? If not, why? Can you state more specifically why the NEC is better?

Many thanks...

"I would not agree unless that NEC model is different than other 2070's, as it is not a very current model and does not have quite the color gamut of either the LGE L2000C and particularly not the Samsung Syncmaster 214T/244T. For digital photography editing the color gamut of LCD's of two or more years ago was inadequate compared to what ws provided with pro-graphics CRT's."
http://forum.shutterbug.com/forum/showf...at=0&Number=8458&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

 

[xtknight]

White still looks white at brightness 18.7%, contrast 15.0% (Advanced DVM off). Anything lower isn't quite white IMO. It's OK for text but not that contrasted.

What I prefer for text is:
Brightness: 60.9%
Sharpness: 20.8%
DV Mode: Gaming (changes contrast and color temp for you)
Advanced DVM: On

I love advanced DVM. It's awesome for most things. Maybe for web browsing I'd turn it off. But for plain old text, games, HD video it'll be left on.

I'm typing over a cyan background right now (AnandTech theme), and this looks contrasted at the above settings.

Text is very high contrast here and it doesn't feel too hard on the eyes. I changed my mind about advanced DVM. I actually like it for text work. Whenever you turn it on it seems to darken everything (reduce blinding brightness) but it maps the colors correctly.

Granted it's not all the monitor's fault the text isn't perfectly contrasted. I'm sure if I told it to display pure black text it would look decent on almost any setting. Unfortunately I can't do that. I definitely need my text anti-aliased.

I still don't quite understand how these DV modes work. Some change the brightness/contrast, some don't.

My gamma on the OS/video card side has been 1.0,1.0,1.0 all throughout, and I intend to keep it that way. Otherwise I'd be clipping the gamut.

The biggest challenge is getting text to look as good in contrast as HD content does. If you raise the contrast too high, the white/light background of your text editor will be blinding. On the other hand, I want the text to be sharply contrasted, just at a lower brightness. What is clear is that I should probably get some more ambient lighting (it's pretty dark in here thanks to the light that burned out). That helps things a lot.

The best scene yet I've seen this monitor produce is this one: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/hd/bbcjapan1.png

On this one, I wouldn't be able to tell if the inferno was inside my monitor or in a video: http://xtknight.atothosting.com/hd/bbcjapan2.png

This is from the Quicktime HD gallery (BBC Japan H.264 1080p). It produces picture elements in one screen in a way three other monitors couldn't if they were to attempt each element individually. The gamut and contrast is incredible. The AS-IPS panel looks its most amazing at a low brightness. Everything is extremely saturated and deep but does not look oversaturated at all.

Other LCDs just can't produce these deep colors in an effective way (too much backlight is let through). Only S-IPS monitors truly can. Basically it's the quality of a high-end rear-projection CRT with a flat profile and a crystal clear image and small dot pitch. As for the granite object at the right of that pic, you might as well be looking through a window. The violet on the parasol is perfect. The depth of field down the path is reproduced brilliantly. Vegetation on the left is a very deep/intense lush green, but without being oversaturated in the least.

 

[xtknight]

On Battlefield 2, ghosting seemed to occur less on this monitor than my VP930b. On subtle motion there is no blur at all. With further motion, things get a little more blurry but still good for gaming. BF2 is the most intense test of ghosting I've used. When you're in a copter looking down at terrain you're already moving to begin with. Now you have to aim downwards (when shooting a machine gun). I'd say that's the most intense test of ghosting. Not that it's hard to see the people you're going to shoot (they are generally in stark contrast to the typical brown terrain in BF2), but the terrain can get a tad blurry. Flying is awesome. Ghosting was no issue whatsoever. Even as I was tilting the copter, stuff was still quite in focus with very little trail. Like other LCDs, it depends on what's moving. Highly textured objects tend to get smeary. But pan a scene of a mountain over a blue sky and the mountain won't blur at all.

 

[Low Radiation]

Thats what we wanna hear

Please post thoughts like this whenever you can....

And in the end - about the glossy screen....when you sum it up all, it doeesn't bother you as i can see?

 

[Spikey217]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Spikey217
Any console gamers here with the NEC 20WMGX2? I've been using it mainly for the PC but I had a chance to plug in my PS2 now (component cables) and I must say that it looks weird. It's hard to describe but it just doesn't look that good. There are noticable horizontal scanlines of sorts during black screens. Some games tend to look better than others. The FF12 demo that came with DragonQuest VIII looks good. DragonQuest VIII itself looks decent. Gran Turismo 4 however looks really bad. Is this normal for a LCD monitor?

My HD tuner looks great on the component input. You are talking component not composite right?

Sure you don't have advanced DVM on? That can cause odd lines sometimes as it transitions between contrast. Adjust sharpness too (to something lower probably). Just try messing with everything.

Yeah, I'm using component (red green blue/red white) for my PS2. I have advanced DVM off. I'll try messing with other settings. I notice that games look worse than normal if I have progressive scan enabled for the game... such as ESPN NFL 2K and Gran Turismo 4.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: middlepath
xtknight,

I've been following your recommendations for a few months now and I recenty noticed that you introduced the NEC 2070NX as best for photo editing. Since photo editing is what I'm primarily interested in, and at an affordable price, the NEC sounds good.

Out of curiosity I searched other forums for their take on good monitors and I stumbled upon the Shutterbug forum. Someone posted the reply below to your NEC 2070NX recommendation. Do you agree with him? If not, why? Can you state more specifically why the NEC is better?

Many thanks...

"I would not agree unless that NEC model is different than other 2070's, as it is not a very current model and does not have quite the color gamut of either the LGE L2000C and particularly not the Samsung Syncmaster 214T/244T. For digital photography editing the color gamut of LCD's of two or more years ago was inadequate compared to what ws provided with pro-graphics CRT's."
http://forum.shutterbug.com/forum/showf...at=0&Number=8458&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

The best S-IPS screens will always be better than S-PVAs (any Samsung) for photo editing. That's why Eizo only uses S-IPS in their high-end photography monitors.

I'm not convinced that the 214T is better than a good NEC. http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?...o1=65&p1=702&ma2=52&mo2=82&p2=856&ph=6

The DeltaE is through the roof on the midtones there (even if it's great on the bright colors). If you look at any of the other recent NECs in that list box, they all have very tight color control <1 dE or so. The 2170NX posts decent results there, and I'd expect the 2070NX to do the same.

I actually don't know why I put the 214T but not the 2170NX on my list. Mistake on my part. :Q Yes it has high contrast, but those midtones don't look too good to me. I'm sure the 214T looks impressive and vibrant, but the colors just aren't that accurate. I must have never even looked at the deltaE graph. To tell you the truth, on most monitors, to tell one color 5 shades from another isn't easy. But it's not better than the NEC. The 215TW posts awesome results though. The fact he's advocating the 214T/244T scares me. The 244T has the same problem.